Settlement Tanks
 

Is there a sizing algorithm for settlement tanks?

I am planning on a 2000 gallon pond with two bottom drains that will be
piped to a settlement tank. Another pipe will connect from the settlement
pipe to a pump that will be submerged in my veggie filter. The output of the
pump will be in the veggie filter which will flow down to the pain pond.

I was thinking of burying one or two 5 gallon buckets for the settlement
tanks. Would be cheap and easy. Would this be big enough to allow for some
SOME settling before the pipes dump into the filter? My intent is to have
the sediment dropped into/used by the veggie filter, but I don't want to
connect the drains directly to my pump for fear of clogging.

--
BenignVanilla
tibetanbeefgarden.com
x-no-archive: yes

Remove MY SPLEEN to email me.

Settlement Tanks
 

"BenignVanilla" wrote:

Is there a sizing algorithm for settlement tanks?

Sure, keep the water in the tank long enough for stuff to settle!

To not be smart, it depends on the water flow.

I was thinking of burying one or two 5 gallon buckets for the settlement
tanks. Would be cheap and easy.

If you connect a 30 gpm (1800gph) pump, that would allow less than 10
seconds settling time, which is to say none.

Would this be big enough to allow for some
SOME settling before the pipes dump into the filter? My intent is to have
the sediment dropped into/used by the veggie filter, but I don't want to
connect the drains directly to my pump for fear of clogging.

Go google and take a look at some of the designs on the web.

Settlement Tanks
 

"John Hines" wrote in message
...
"BenignVanilla" wrote:
snip
If you connect a 30 gpm (1800gph) pump, that would allow less than 10
seconds settling time, which is to say none.
snip

Thanks for the follow up. Makes sense. I'll go back to the drawing board.

BV.

Settlement Tanks
 

"John Hines" wrote in message
...
"BenignVanilla" wrote:

Is there a sizing algorithm for settlement tanks?

Sure, keep the water in the tank long enough for stuff to settle!

*laugh* OK, so what's that time period?
snip

If you connect a 30 gpm (1800gph) pump, that would allow less than 10
seconds settling time, which is to say none.
snip

I did some quick math, assuming a 2000 gallon pond, and an 1800GPH pump. It
would take the pump 67 minutes to circulate the water in the pond. With a
200 gallon settlement tank, the water would have only 7 minutes to settle in
the tank. I realize this does not take into consideration of the volume in
the pipes. I am just trying to get close here. So is 7 minutes enough? I am
guessing not. A 500 gallon settlement tank would provide about 17 minutes of
settle time. Still seems a bit low.

The reason I ask is that, it seems like a lot of work and doing to get a
settlement tank going. Since I plan to have a shallow veggie filter,
cleaning it should not be a big deal. I am wondering if I should just forget
the settlement tank, and let the sediment come into the veggie filter, which
could easily be drained, cleaned and refilled.

BV.



Go google and take a look at some of the designs on the web.

Settlement Tanks
 

BenignVanilla wrote:
"John Hines" wrote in message
...

"BenignVanilla" wrote:


Is there a sizing algorithm for settlement tanks?

Sure, keep the water in the tank long enough for stuff to settle!


*laugh* OK, so what's that time period?
snip

If you connect a 30 gpm (1800gph) pump, that would allow less than 10
seconds settling time, which is to say none.

snip

I did some quick math, assuming a 2000 gallon pond, and an 1800GPH pump. It
would take the pump 67 minutes to circulate the water in the pond. With a
200 gallon settlement tank, the water would have only 7 minutes to settle in
the tank. I realize this does not take into consideration of the volume in
the pipes. I am just trying to get close here. So is 7 minutes enough? I am
guessing not. A 500 gallon settlement tank would provide about 17 minutes of
settle time. Still seems a bit low.

The reason I ask is that, it seems like a lot of work and doing to get a
settlement tank going. Since I plan to have a shallow veggie filter,
cleaning it should not be a big deal. I am wondering if I should just forget
the settlement tank, and let the sediment come into the veggie filter, which
could easily be drained, cleaned and refilled.

BV.


When I built my first veggie filter it was suggested that
the turnover rate be once every four hours, so that it
would have enough time for the plants to absorb the nutrients.
The argument ensued here on rec.ponds - whether time in the
filter or amount of water passing through the filter where
more important. It was never really settled - as usual we
each came to our own conclusion because our ponds are all
different.
To slow down the waters passage through the settling tank
several of us have added window screening. This works great
in allowing the muck to settle and the window screening is
very easily cleaned with a hose.

--
Bonnie
NJ

Settlement Tanks
 

"Bonnie Espenshade" wrote in message
...
BenignVanilla wrote:
snip
I did some quick math, assuming a 2000 gallon pond, and an 1800GPH pump.
It
would take the pump 67 minutes to circulate the water in the pond. With
a
200 gallon settlement tank, the water would have only 7 minutes to
settle in
the tank. I realize this does not take into consideration of the volume
in
the pipes. I am just trying to get close here. So is 7 minutes enough? I
am
guessing not. A 500 gallon settlement tank would provide about 17
minutes of
settle time. Still seems a bit low.
snip
When I built my first veggie filter it was suggested that
the turnover rate be once every four hours, so that it
would have enough time for the plants to absorb the nutrients.
The argument ensued here on rec.ponds - whether time in the
filter or amount of water passing through the filter where
more important. It was never really settled - as usual we
each came to our own conclusion because our ponds are all
different.

I can see both sides of each argument. And I could probably find myself
agreeing with both, so I will do my best to not bring it back to life.
*laugh* BUT...BUT...How can I translate this to a settlement tank? Surely,
the flow of the water will be a factor. If I have a 3000 gallon pond, I am
going to have a 300 gallon veggie filter...do I also want another 500
gallons just for sediment drop out? I thinking more and more that I do not.
I am seriously considering a couple of 5 gallons buckets that I can use to
screen large particales out to protect the pump. The window screening other
such material makes sense. It would be easy to dig a small hole for these,
and they could easily be disconnected, lifted out, cleaned and put back.
They would not contain much volume but the two chambers should aid in larger
particles not going directly into the pump itself, I would think.

To slow down the waters passage through the settling tank
several of us have added window screening. This works great
in allowing the muck to settle and the window screening is
very easily cleaned with a hose.

*sigh* So I am going to have a mechanical and a veggie filter. *sigh*

BV.

Settlement Tanks
 

"BenignVanilla" wrote:

"John Hines" wrote in message
.. .
"BenignVanilla" wrote:

Is there a sizing algorithm for settlement tanks?

Sure, keep the water in the tank long enough for stuff to settle!

*laugh* OK, so what's that time period?
snip

It isn't hard, get a clear glass tumbler out of the kitchen, fill it
with pond water, shake up, and see how long it takes for the stuff to
settle out to the bottom.

To sum it up, it takes a while, so the settling rate is how much (%)
settles out per minute.

If you connect a 30 gpm (1800gph) pump, that would allow less than 10
seconds settling time, which is to say none.
snip

I did some quick math, assuming a 2000 gallon pond, and an 1800GPH pump. It
would take the pump 67 minutes to circulate the water in the pond. With a
200 gallon settlement tank, the water would have only 7 minutes to settle in
the tank. I realize this does not take into consideration of the volume in
the pipes. I am just trying to get close here. So is 7 minutes enough? I am
guessing not. A 500 gallon settlement tank would provide about 17 minutes of
settle time. Still seems a bit low.

That will work. Try my test in the first point., a few minutes will
allow a great percentage of stuff to settle out.

The idea of the settlement tank is to get the big stuff out.

The reason I ask is that, it seems like a lot of work and doing to get a
settlement tank going. Since I plan to have a shallow veggie filter,
cleaning it should not be a big deal. I am wondering if I should just forget
the settlement tank, and let the sediment come into the veggie filter, which
could easily be drained, cleaned and refilled.

Filtering needs to be done in stages,
first you screen out the fish,
then the largest items,
then the smaller items,
and so on.

A settling tank is for the larger, coarser, heavier items, a prefilter
to a finer filter, like the veggie filter.

Settlement Tanks
 

I disagree that we need additional filtering, John.
Let the veggie filter do its work. If you must,
place a screen in the veggie filter.

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"John Hines" wrote in message
...
"BenignVanilla" wrote:

"John Hines" wrote in message
.. .
"BenignVanilla" wrote:

Is there a sizing algorithm for settlement tanks?

Sure, keep the water in the tank long enough for stuff to settle!

*laugh* OK, so what's that time period?
snip

It isn't hard, get a clear glass tumbler out of the kitchen, fill it
with pond water, shake up, and see how long it takes for the stuff to
settle out to the bottom.

To sum it up, it takes a while, so the settling rate is how much (%)
settles out per minute.

If you connect a 30 gpm (1800gph) pump, that would allow less than 10
seconds settling time, which is to say none.
snip

I did some quick math, assuming a 2000 gallon pond, and an 1800GPH pump.
It
would take the pump 67 minutes to circulate the water in the pond. With a
200 gallon settlement tank, the water would have only 7 minutes to settle
in
the tank. I realize this does not take into consideration of the volume
in
the pipes. I am just trying to get close here. So is 7 minutes enough? I
am
guessing not. A 500 gallon settlement tank would provide about 17 minutes
of
settle time. Still seems a bit low.

That will work. Try my test in the first point., a few minutes will
allow a great percentage of stuff to settle out.

The idea of the settlement tank is to get the big stuff out.

The reason I ask is that, it seems like a lot of work and doing to get a
settlement tank going. Since I plan to have a shallow veggie filter,
cleaning it should not be a big deal. I am wondering if I should just
forget
the settlement tank, and let the sediment come into the veggie filter,
which
could easily be drained, cleaned and refilled.

Filtering needs to be done in stages,
first you screen out the fish,
then the largest items,
then the smaller items,
and so on.

A settling tank is for the larger, coarser, heavier items, a prefilter
to a finer filter, like the veggie filter.

Settlement Tanks
 

"John Hines" wrote in message
...
snip

It isn't hard, get a clear glass tumbler out of the kitchen, fill it
with pond water, shake up, and see how long it takes for the stuff to
settle out to the bottom.

snip

A good idea if my pond existed anywhere but on and paper and in that muddy
hole I started digging in October. *laugh* I was hoping to design and build
this, and have it part of the pond from day one. I wonder if I could do a
test using some muddy water from the hole? Clearly it is much dirtier now
then the pond will ever get. I wonder if that would give a valid barometer
of anything?

I realize that I have a mind block on a true settlement tank, so I am going
to beat that to death before I give in. I don't want to have nine or ten 55
gallons barrels in my yard. I don't want to dig holes to bury them. And I
don't want another 500 gallon pond (well maybe not).

Ok, so here are my current ideas...

One...A large rubbermaid the 30-40 gallon sized, sunk into the ground. Easy
to dig, easy to lift out if necessary. A second smaller rubbermaid 5-10
gallons. I cut out the sides of the smaller rubbermaid and cover it with
screen material. The pump goes in and the lid goes on. This gets sunk in the
larger rubbermaid, maybe sitting up on a cinderblock to keep it near the top
of the larger rubbermaid. Water is pump out of the smaller rubbermaid, which
pulls water into the larger rubbermaid.

Does anyone think this could work? If I am not concerned with a true
settlement tank and just want to keep the large particles from my pump, I
figured this small and simple setup could provide the needed slow down.

Second idea. Two five gallon buckets. Again, sunk in the ground. Pump sits
in one. The other is fed from the bottom. Screening is placed in the top of
the first and the water flows out a pipe in the top of the first bucket and
down into the bottom of the second bucket. Again, just enough to keep large
particles out of the pump. The pump raised off the bottom of the second
bucket then pumps to the veggie filter. Again...easy to dig...easy to lift
and clean.

To sum it up, it takes a while, so the settling rate is how much (%)
settles out per minute.

Zactly. If only I could know this from a book.

snip

That will work. Try my test in the first point., a few minutes will
allow a great percentage of stuff to settle out.

The idea of the settlement tank is to get the big stuff out.

snip

Right! So I wonder if a multi chamber unit, that is small in size (a la, my
original 4-5 five gallon bucket idea) but has numerous fallout chambers
would provide the needed large particle drop out, purely based on the large
particles being less likely to survive an up and down churning of water.

Filtering needs to be done in stages,
first you screen out the fish,
then the largest items,
then the smaller items,
and so on.

I like that run down. *laugh*

A settling tank is for the larger, coarser, heavier items, a prefilter
to a finer filter, like the veggie filter.

I plan to keep my veggie fliter to a shallow foot or so in depth. So again,
I wonder if I even need a settlement tank. I wouldn't mind having to clean a
1 foot deep pond out every now and then. I would think it would be fairly
easy.

BV.

Settlement Tanks
 

"BenignVanilla" wrote:

To sum it up, it takes a while, so the settling rate is how much (%)
settles out per minute.

Zactly. If only I could know this from a book.

Or work the other way, and setup your chamber to give as much settling
time as possible. Again, it is a balance of flow, vs settling time.

But yes, get a glass of muddy water, and give it try. You'll learn
something in the process.

Filtering needs to be done in stages,
first you screen out the fish,
then the largest items,
then the smaller items,
and so on.

I like that run down. *laugh*

There are various pieces to it. You can use different pieces, or methods
for each one, or combine them.

Yes, your veggie filter will work as a settling tank as well, if the
water sits in it for a while, which it should do. The particles also get
caught in the roots and such (like a mechanical filter).

Settlement Tanks
 

The shape of the setting tank makes a big diff too. Think about how much
further solids have to drop in a tall narrow tank then in a shallow one.

Maybe you should look into another method of getting the coarse crap out.
Either brushes or maybe a vortex screen sort of device. Seen a DIY but
do not recall the URL. Maybe someone else has it bookmarked.

Howard

"BenignVanilla" wrote in
message ...
"John Hines" wrote in message
...
"BenignVanilla" wrote:

Is there a sizing algorithm for settlement tanks?

Sure, keep the water in the tank long enough for stuff to settle!

*laugh* OK, so what's that time period?
snip

If you connect a 30 gpm (1800gph) pump, that would allow less than 10
seconds settling time, which is to say none.
snip

I did some quick math, assuming a 2000 gallon pond, and an 1800GPH pump.
It
would take the pump 67 minutes to circulate the water in the pond. With a
200 gallon settlement tank, the water would have only 7 minutes to settle
in
the tank. I realize this does not take into consideration of the volume in
the pipes. I am just trying to get close here. So is 7 minutes enough? I
am
guessing not. A 500 gallon settlement tank would provide about 17 minutes
of
settle time. Still seems a bit low.

The reason I ask is that, it seems like a lot of work and doing to get a
settlement tank going. Since I plan to have a shallow veggie filter,
cleaning it should not be a big deal. I am wondering if I should just
forget
the settlement tank, and let the sediment come into the veggie filter,
which
could easily be drained, cleaned and refilled.

BV.



Go google and take a look at some of the designs on the web.

Settlement Tanks
 

"MLF" wrote in message
...

"BenignVanilla" wrote:
I did some quick math, assuming a 2000 gallon pond, and an
1800GPH pump. It would take the pump 67 minutes to circulate the
water in the pond. With a 200 gallon settlement tank, the water
would have only 7 minutes to settle in the tank...So is 7 minutes
enough? I am guessing not.

You're right. The other person who suggested that you put some material
in a glass of water, shake it up and see how long it takes to settle out
is not right either. Unlike your settling tank, the water in the glass
is not moving. The only way to get it to settle is to let it sit - a
loooooong time. Only the largest particles will settle in 7 minutes and
then only if the water is still enough (settling time in still water is
a function of the size of the particles and time).

I figured the motion of the water would have a dramatic effect.

snip

You're right. Go with the veggie filter. With proper inlet construction
and design you won't suck up much that will harm your filter.

So what is proper inlet construction? Seems all of the professional inlets
seem to be upside bowl shaped. Still learning what that is all about.

BTW: I have worked in municipal sewage and fresh water treatment plants
for some years. They use a process called "flocculation" to remove
suspended solids. Basically, this consists of introducing a material
into the water that collects on the particles, makes them clump
together, and then they are filtered or settled out. Very effective and
non-toxic. (Imagine putting a little powdered jello in a bucket of muddy
water - the gelatin would collect on the particles and you could filter
the solids out with a fine mesh cloth.)

Will Wild Cherry Jello work? That's my favorite. I supposed I should leave
the vodka out though eh?

BV.

Settlement Tanks
 

BV, I can't tell if your for real or not? Jokes
are fine ... but Gee ... oh well. For the Veggie Filter:

The Veggie
Filter is fed by a hose - one end of whichis attached
to a pump
that sits near the bottom - NOT on the bottom - just
near the bottom of your pond. The hose goes across
the bottom of the pond, up the far side and into the VF.
I attached a manifold to the hose that goes into the VF. The manifold has
holes drilled all over it. This slows down the
water - allows for "dwell time" all over the VF. The
exit is a cut out, usually about 6 inches deep and 8 or
9 inches wide. Depends on the size of your pump.

HTH

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"BenignVanilla" wrote in
message ...
"MLF" wrote in message
...

"BenignVanilla" wrote:
I did some quick math, assuming a 2000 gallon pond, and an
1800GPH pump. It would take the pump 67 minutes to circulate the
water in the pond. With a 200 gallon settlement tank, the water
would have only 7 minutes to settle in the tank...So is 7 minutes
enough? I am guessing not.

You're right. The other person who suggested that you put some material
in a glass of water, shake it up and see how long it takes to settle out
is not right either. Unlike your settling tank, the water in the glass
is not moving. The only way to get it to settle is to let it sit - a
loooooong time. Only the largest particles will settle in 7 minutes and
then only if the water is still enough (settling time in still water is
a function of the size of the particles and time).

I figured the motion of the water would have a dramatic effect.

snip

You're right. Go with the veggie filter. With proper inlet construction
and design you won't suck up much that will harm your filter.

So what is proper inlet construction? Seems all of the professional inlets
seem to be upside bowl shaped. Still learning what that is all about.

BTW: I have worked in municipal sewage and fresh water treatment plants
for some years. They use a process called "flocculation" to remove
suspended solids. Basically, this consists of introducing a material
into the water that collects on the particles, makes them clump
together, and then they are filtered or settled out. Very effective and
non-toxic. (Imagine putting a little powdered jello in a bucket of muddy
water - the gelatin would collect on the particles and you could filter
the solids out with a fine mesh cloth.)

Will Wild Cherry Jello work? That's my favorite. I supposed I should leave
the vodka out though eh?

BV.

Settlement Tanks
 

"Howard" (remove XYZ) wrote in message
...
The shape of the setting tank makes a big diff too. Think about how much
further solids have to drop in a tall narrow tank then in a shallow one.

Maybe you should look into another method of getting the coarse crap out.
Either brushes or maybe a vortex screen sort of device. Seen a DIY but
do not recall the URL. Maybe someone else has it bookmarked.

I am mostly concerned with keeping large particles out of my pump. If little
stuff makes it to the veggie filter, I won't mind. I posted somewhere that I
intend to have a fairly shallow veggie filter, so cleaning it should not be
an issue. So maybe the better question I could have asked is, what is the
best way to keep the large particles down? I want to have a bury-able
solution. I am leaning toward a large rubber made design that will have the
pump in one end, and the feed in the other. Both separated by some screening
material.

BV.

Settlement Tanks
 

"Nedra" wrote in message
hlink.net...
BV, I can't tell if your for real or not? Jokes
are fine ... but Gee ... oh well. For the Veggie Filter:

5-6 posts of research/questions and math...one joke about jello referencing
another posters reference to gelatin, and you don't know if I am for real?
Lighten up. Gee whiz.

The Veggie
Filter is fed by a hose - one end of whichis attached
to a pump
that sits near the bottom - NOT on the bottom - just
near the bottom of your pond.

This is key to my problem. Originally I planned to have a pump IN the pond,
but now I plan to use a bottom drain, have it empty into my veggie filter.
This prevents me from having the pump in the pond because I don't want the
pump directly attached to the bottom drain, in order to prevent damage from
large debris. This started me on the concept of an intermediate or
settlement chamber, which I have found will be too large for my desired
area. So I have been playing with many different ideas on how to get a small
set of chambers to provide enough fall out time to protect the pump, but not
neccessiraly act as a REAL settlement chamber.

Someone suggested gelatin being used in some filter systems, not ponds
particularly, in order to help get the particles to glom together. Hence my
jello joke.

The hose goes across
the bottom of the pond, up the far side and into the VF.
I attached a manifold to the hose that goes into the VF. The manifold has
holes drilled all over it. This slows down the
water - allows for "dwell time" all over the VF. The
exit is a cut out, usually about 6 inches deep and 8 or
9 inches wide. Depends on the size of your pump.

Nice idea, but I don't think it will work for me in my design, as I am
looking for something to precede my pump. The manifold will probably be a
good idea for my VF, but I am still trying to solve my problem of protecting
the pump from sucking up a large particle.

BV.
aka Wild Cherry Jello Lover

Settlement Tanks
 

"BenignVanilla" wrote:

"Howard" (remove XYZ) wrote in message
...
The shape of the setting tank makes a big diff too. Think about how much
further solids have to drop in a tall narrow tank then in a shallow one.

Maybe you should look into another method of getting the coarse crap out.
Either brushes or maybe a vortex screen sort of device. Seen a DIY but
do not recall the URL. Maybe someone else has it bookmarked.

I am mostly concerned with keeping large particles out of my pump. If little
stuff makes it to the veggie filter, I won't mind. I posted somewhere that I
intend to have a fairly shallow veggie filter, so cleaning it should not be
an issue. So maybe the better question I could have asked is, what is the
best way to keep the large particles down? I want to have a bury-able
solution. I am leaning toward a large rubber made design that will have the
pump in one end, and the feed in the other. Both separated by some screening
material.

Like this one?

http://www.aquaart.com/StrBsk.html

Also serves as a priming pot. You do have one of those in your plans
right?

Settlement Tanks
 

Hi Wild Cherry Jello Lover ;-)
I'm sorry I jumped on you :O)

You keep talking about large particles getting to
the pump ... we are talking
about fish poo here, aren't we? Guess I'm a bit dense
but I don't see a problem in taking Bonnie Espanshade's
suggestion. My own VF pump is a Beckett 500 gph.
Pond is a bit less than 3,000. VF has plenty of dwell
time. I don't have a bottom drain yet. Would like to
install one that goes over the top of the liner ... as
opposed to thru the liner. (I do have another much
bigger big pump that goes to the waterfall.)
Good Luck with your venture!

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"BenignVanilla"
wrote in message
...
"Nedra" wrote in message
hlink.net...
BV, I can't tell if your for real or not? Jokes
are fine ... but Gee ... oh well. For the Veggie Filter:

5-6 posts of research/questions and math...one joke about jello
referencing
another posters reference to gelatin, and you don't know if I am for real?
Lighten up. Gee whiz.

The Veggie
Filter is fed by a hose - one end of whichis attached
to a pump
that sits near the bottom - NOT on the bottom - just
near the bottom of your pond.

This is key to my problem. Originally I planned to have a pump IN the
pond,
but now I plan to use a bottom drain, have it empty into my veggie filter.
This prevents me from having the pump in the pond because I don't want the
pump directly attached to the bottom drain, in order to prevent damage
from
large debris. This started me on the concept of an intermediate or
settlement chamber, which I have found will be too large for my desired
area. So I have been playing with many different ideas on how to get a
small
set of chambers to provide enough fall out time to protect the pump, but
not
neccessiraly act as a REAL settlement chamber.

Someone suggested gelatin being used in some filter systems, not ponds
particularly, in order to help get the particles to glom together. Hence
my
jello joke.

The hose goes across
the bottom of the pond, up the far side and into the VF.
I attached a manifold to the hose that goes into the VF. The manifold
has
holes drilled all over it. This slows down the
water - allows for "dwell time" all over the VF. The
exit is a cut out, usually about 6 inches deep and 8 or
9 inches wide. Depends on the size of your pump.

Nice idea, but I don't think it will work for me in my design, as I am
looking for something to precede my pump. The manifold will probably be a
good idea for my VF, but I am still trying to solve my problem of
protecting
the pump from sucking up a large particle.

BV.
aka Wild Cherry Jello Lover

Settlement Tanks
 

"John Hines" wrote in message
...
"BenignVanilla" wrote:
snip
I am mostly concerned with keeping large particles out of my pump. If
little
stuff makes it to the veggie filter, I won't mind. I posted somewhere
that I
intend to have a fairly shallow veggie filter, so cleaning it should not
be
an issue. So maybe the better question I could have asked is, what is the
best way to keep the large particles down? I want to have a bury-able
solution. I am leaning toward a large rubber made design that will have
the
pump in one end, and the feed in the other. Both separated by some
screening
material.

Like this one?

http://www.aquaart.com/StrBsk.html

For $35? Wow...I guess building one is a useless idea.

BV.

Settlement Tanks
 

"Nedra" wrote in message
hlink.net...
Hi Wild Cherry Jello Lover ;-)
I'm sorry I jumped on you :O)

No problem. Actually, I enjoy it when females willingly "jump on me", but
that is a topic for an alt.* ng.

You keep talking about large particles getting to
the pump ... we are talking
about fish poo here, aren't we? Guess I'm a bit dense
but I don't see a problem in taking Bonnie Espanshade's
suggestion.

I am a newbiew and am designing my first pond, so I am trying to cover my
bases. Originally, I was not going to have a bottom drain, but plan to now.
The BD will feed my pump which will dump into my veggie filter. I have been
worried about sucking something up the drain...a fish, a pebble, a stick,
etc. I figured I should have something between my drain and the pump. Is
this off base?

I agree I like Bonnie's idea of using window screening. I plan to use a
small settling tank to provide this ability. I figure I'll put the pump in a
6 gallon bucket, and screening it from the feed. This way I can easily clean
it up when needed.

My own VF pump is a Beckett 500 gph.
Pond is a bit less than 3,000. VF has plenty of dwell
time. I don't have a bottom drain yet. Would like to
install one that goes over the top of the liner ... as
opposed to thru the liner.

Since I am in the design stages...I plan to go under the liner...*fingers
crossed*

(I do have another much
bigger big pump that goes to the waterfall.)
Good Luck with your venture!

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"BenignVanilla"
wrote in message
...
"Nedra" wrote in message
hlink.net...
BV, I can't tell if your for real or not? Jokes
are fine ... but Gee ... oh well. For the Veggie Filter:

5-6 posts of research/questions and math...one joke about jello
referencing
another posters reference to gelatin, and you don't know if I am for
real?
Lighten up. Gee whiz.

The Veggie
Filter is fed by a hose - one end of whichis attached
to a pump
that sits near the bottom - NOT on the bottom - just
near the bottom of your pond.

This is key to my problem. Originally I planned to have a pump IN the
pond,
but now I plan to use a bottom drain, have it empty into my veggie
filter.
This prevents me from having the pump in the pond because I don't want
the
pump directly attached to the bottom drain, in order to prevent damage
from
large debris. This started me on the concept of an intermediate or
settlement chamber, which I have found will be too large for my desired
area. So I have been playing with many different ideas on how to get a
small
set of chambers to provide enough fall out time to protect the pump, but
not
neccessiraly act as a REAL settlement chamber.

Someone suggested gelatin being used in some filter systems, not ponds
particularly, in order to help get the particles to glom together. Hence
my
jello joke.

The hose goes across
the bottom of the pond, up the far side and into the VF.
I attached a manifold to the hose that goes into the VF. The manifold
has
holes drilled all over it. This slows down the
water - allows for "dwell time" all over the VF. The
exit is a cut out, usually about 6 inches deep and 8 or
9 inches wide. Depends on the size of your pump.

Nice idea, but I don't think it will work for me in my design, as I am
looking for something to precede my pump. The manifold will probably be
a
good idea for my VF, but I am still trying to solve my problem of
protecting
the pump from sucking up a large particle.

BV.
aka Wild Cherry Jello Lover

Settlement Tanks
 

"BenignVanilla" wrote:

"John Hines" wrote in message
.. .
"BenignVanilla" wrote:
snip
I am mostly concerned with keeping large particles out of my pump. If
little
stuff makes it to the veggie filter, I won't mind. I posted somewhere
that I
intend to have a fairly shallow veggie filter, so cleaning it should not
be
an issue. So maybe the better question I could have asked is, what is the
best way to keep the large particles down? I want to have a bury-able
solution. I am leaning toward a large rubber made design that will have
the
pump in one end, and the feed in the other. Both separated by some
screening
material.

Like this one?

http://www.aquaart.com/StrBsk.html

For $35? Wow...I guess building one is a useless idea.

Check out the rest of their (aquaart) products, they have a bunch of
stuff that will save you time. For example

http://www.aquaart.com/draininstall.html

Settlement Tanks
 

Actually you are doing it the *right way*. I got the idea;
bought the preform; and had 125 gallons of water
in it before you could say "Jack Robinson". No planning, no ifs, ands or
buts.... That's the way a Type A person does things! NOT the right way :(

I know your a newbie...
Belatedly, Welcome to rec.ponds.

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"BenignVanilla" wrote in
message ...
"Nedra" wrote in message
hlink.net...
Hi Wild Cherry Jello Lover ;-)
I'm sorry I jumped on you :O)

No problem. Actually, I enjoy it when females willingly "jump on me", but
that is a topic for an alt.* ng.

You keep talking about large particles getting to
the pump ... we are talking
about fish poo here, aren't we? Guess I'm a bit dense
but I don't see a problem in taking Bonnie Espanshade's
suggestion.

I am a newbiew and am designing my first pond, so I am trying to cover my
bases. Originally, I was not going to have a bottom drain, but plan to
now.
The BD will feed my pump which will dump into my veggie filter. I have
been
worried about sucking something up the drain...a fish, a pebble, a stick,
etc. I figured I should have something between my drain and the pump. Is
this off base?

I agree I like Bonnie's idea of using window screening. I plan to use a
small settling tank to provide this ability. I figure I'll put the pump in
a
6 gallon bucket, and screening it from the feed. This way I can easily
clean
it up when needed.

My own VF pump is a Beckett 500 gph.
Pond is a bit less than 3,000. VF has plenty of dwell
time. I don't have a bottom drain yet. Would like to
install one that goes over the top of the liner ... as
opposed to thru the liner.

Since I am in the design stages...I plan to go under the liner...*fingers
crossed*

(I do have another much
bigger big pump that goes to the waterfall.)
Good Luck with your venture!

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"BenignVanilla"
wrote in message
...
"Nedra" wrote in message
hlink.net...
BV, I can't tell if your for real or not? Jokes
are fine ... but Gee ... oh well. For the Veggie Filter:

5-6 posts of research/questions and math...one joke about jello
referencing
another posters reference to gelatin, and you don't know if I am for
real?
Lighten up. Gee whiz.

The Veggie
Filter is fed by a hose - one end of whichis attached
to a pump
that sits near the bottom - NOT on the bottom - just
near the bottom of your pond.

This is key to my problem. Originally I planned to have a pump IN the
pond,
but now I plan to use a bottom drain, have it empty into my veggie
filter.
This prevents me from having the pump in the pond because I don't want
the
pump directly attached to the bottom drain, in order to prevent damage
from
large debris. This started me on the concept of an intermediate or
settlement chamber, which I have found will be too large for my
desired
area. So I have been playing with many different ideas on how to get a
small
set of chambers to provide enough fall out time to protect the pump,
but
not
neccessiraly act as a REAL settlement chamber.

Someone suggested gelatin being used in some filter systems, not ponds
particularly, in order to help get the particles to glom together.
Hence
my
jello joke.

The hose goes across
the bottom of the pond, up the far side and into the VF.
I attached a manifold to the hose that goes into the VF. The
manifold
has
holes drilled all over it. This slows down the
water - allows for "dwell time" all over the VF. The
exit is a cut out, usually about 6 inches deep and 8 or
9 inches wide. Depends on the size of your pump.

Nice idea, but I don't think it will work for me in my design, as I am
looking for something to precede my pump. The manifold will probably
be
a
good idea for my VF, but I am still trying to solve my problem of
protecting
the pump from sucking up a large particle.

BV.
aka Wild Cherry Jello Lover

Settlement Tanks
 

http://www.aquaart.com/StrBsk.html

For $35? Wow...I guess building one is a useless idea.

Did I miss something? SrBsk are usually used on out-of-the-water pumps and
it appears to me that BV is going to use a submersible.....

That said, BV, here's what you're missing in going with small settling
tanks, they may be easy to clean due to size, but you will be cleaning them
often, and IME I do mean often. I originally started with a 10 gallon
filter on my koi ponds which worked the first year with tiny fish and lots
of plants, (basically the ponds were veggie filters). 10 gallons was a snap
to clean (15 minutes) but it had to be done EVERY day. If you make your
pond system an every day or even every few day maintenance chore, I hope
you have no plans of ever being sick or on vacation, cause no one can keep
up the pond better than the pond master builder (that's you).....

Take a little extra time now and dig a hole for a 40 gallon Rough Tote
Trough at the very least*, use window screening and up flow. In the ground
with water hyacinths growing in the top and it will soon be invisible.
Depending on the inhabitants in your pond, you'll only clean this every 3-6
weeks.

Everyone is right though, that said your veggie filter can also be your
mechanical filter** you've just got your pump placement wrong, imo. It
needs to go after the veggie filter, preferable in a container large enough
that it can't suck it dry faster than it can fill.***

* I'd used a 55 gallon barrel as you get more vertical space to keep the
screen off the bottom but also away from the hyacinth roots.

** A mechanical chamber is still easier than removing all your plants and
cleaning the veggie filter if you have to do it more than once/year. If you
are in an area with winter, the veggie filter should be cleaned in winter
or before spring start up, imo.

***For pump protection you need enough vertical space to use a float switch
so if something clogs the system the pump will shut off rather than burn up
or suck the pond dry.

Just out of curiosity have you looked at my website? ~ jan :o)


See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

Settlement Tanks
 

I have my waterfall/veggie filter dump completely into one of those round
preformed ponds, then it exits out 2 - 2" pipes into another waterfall. I
have anacharis and penny wort and other plants in the round pond part. I
can only say that I have alot of junk that settles here and it is my only
form of filtration. I have not had green water since I built the thing and
I am in zone 9 in full sun.


"BenignVanilla" wrote in
message ...
Is there a sizing algorithm for settlement tanks?

I am planning on a 2000 gallon pond with two bottom drains that will be
piped to a settlement tank. Another pipe will connect from the settlement
pipe to a pump that will be submerged in my veggie filter. The output of
the
pump will be in the veggie filter which will flow down to the pain pond.

I was thinking of burying one or two 5 gallon buckets for the settlement
tanks. Would be cheap and easy. Would this be big enough to allow for some
SOME settling before the pipes dump into the filter? My intent is to have
the sediment dropped into/used by the veggie filter, but I don't want to
connect the drains directly to my pump for fear of clogging.

--
BenignVanilla
tibetanbeefgarden.com
x-no-archive: yes

Remove MY SPLEEN to email me.

Settlement Tanks
 

"~ jan" wrote in message
...
http://www.aquaart.com/StrBsk.html

For $35? Wow...I guess building one is a useless idea.

Did I miss something? SrBsk are usually used on out-of-the-water pumps and
it appears to me that BV is going to use a submersible.....

Yes, it is my intent to use a submersible pump. You are correct.

That said, BV, here's what you're missing in going with small settling
tanks, they may be easy to clean due to size, but you will be cleaning
them
often, and IME I do mean often. I originally started with a 10 gallon
filter on my koi ponds which worked the first year with tiny fish and lots
of plants, (basically the ponds were veggie filters). 10 gallons was a
snap
to clean (15 minutes) but it had to be done EVERY day. If you make your
pond system an every day or even every few day maintenance chore, I hope
you have no plans of ever being sick or on vacation, cause no one can keep
up the pond better than the pond master builder (that's you).....

This may be the most important paragraph that I have read since I started my
pond design. This was exactly my intent; a small easy to clean pre-filter.
Daily sounds awful. My hole goal behind a VF is to reduce maintenance.

Take a little extra time now and dig a hole for a 40 gallon Rough Tote
Trough at the very least*, use window screening and up flow. In the ground
with water hyacinths growing in the top and it will soon be invisible.
Depending on the inhabitants in your pond, you'll only clean this every
3-6
weeks.

Everyone is right though, that said your veggie filter can also be your
mechanical filter** you've just got your pump placement wrong, imo. It
needs to go after the veggie filter, preferable in a container large
enough
that it can't suck it dry faster than it can fill.***

Damn, just when I thought I had my design perfect. I intended to have a
bottom drain and skimmer run to my VF. In the VF, we plan to have a
decorative pot or urn sitting, raises a bit out of the water. I intend to
have the feed from the pond come in thru the bottom of this urn. The urn
will be seperated into two sections by some screening with the pump above
the screen. The water would then overflow the urn, and spill into the VF,
which would feed the main pond via 4'' pipe. I figured every now and then I
could shut the pump down, close a valve and overflow the urn and it's
collected gunk into the VF. I figured it would be easy to clean, would not
be a maintenance nightmare, and would also look nice.

I haven't figured out if this pond will be above the main pond or on the
same level yet. I am guessing slightly above, maybe even raised about a
foot, with a nice retaining wall/place to sit.

* I'd used a 55 gallon barrel as you get more vertical space to keep the
screen off the bottom but also away from the hyacinth roots.

If buried, how do you easily clean it?


** A mechanical chamber is still easier than removing all your plants and
cleaning the veggie filter if you have to do it more than once/year. If
you
are in an area with winter, the veggie filter should be cleaned in winter
or before spring start up, imo.

I don't mind emptying the VF once or twice a year. I plan to make it
shallow, so that should not be a big deal.

***For pump protection you need enough vertical space to use a float
switch
so if something clogs the system the pump will shut off rather than burn
up
or suck the pond dry.

The switch is a neccesity. I have a 5 year old and a 2.5 year old. 'Nuff
said?

Just out of curiosity have you looked at my website? ~ jan :o)

I have but not in awhile...time to revisit.

BV.

Settlement Tanks
 

~ jan wrote:
http://www.aquaart.com/StrBsk.html

For $35? Wow...I guess building one is a useless idea.


Did I miss something? SrBsk are usually used on out-of-the-water pumps and
it appears to me that BV is going to use a submersible.....

That said, BV, here's what you're missing in going with small settling
tanks, they may be easy to clean due to size, but you will be cleaning them
often, and IME I do mean often. I originally started with a 10 gallon
filter on my koi ponds which worked the first year with tiny fish and lots
of plants, (basically the ponds were veggie filters). 10 gallons was a snap
to clean (15 minutes) but it had to be done EVERY day. If you make your
pond system an every day or even every few day maintenance chore, I hope
you have no plans of ever being sick or on vacation, cause no one can keep
up the pond better than the pond master builder (that's you).....

Take a little extra time now and dig a hole for a 40 gallon Rough Tote
Trough at the very least*, use window screening and up flow. In the ground
with water hyacinths growing in the top and it will soon be invisible.
Depending on the inhabitants in your pond, you'll only clean this every 3-6
weeks.

Everyone is right though, that said your veggie filter can also be your
mechanical filter** you've just got your pump placement wrong, imo. It
needs to go after the veggie filter, preferable in a container large enough
that it can't suck it dry faster than it can fill.***

* I'd used a 55 gallon barrel as you get more vertical space to keep the
screen off the bottom but also away from the hyacinth roots.

** A mechanical chamber is still easier than removing all your plants and
cleaning the veggie filter if you have to do it more than once/year. If you
are in an area with winter, the veggie filter should be cleaned in winter
or before spring start up, imo.

***For pump protection you need enough vertical space to use a float switch
so if something clogs the system the pump will shut off rather than burn up
or suck the pond dry.

Just out of curiosity have you looked at my website? ~ jan :o)


See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

to add to what Jan said

one of my filter setups runns 1200 gph through 4 50 gal drums and then
into the veggie filter when I shut down last fall there was 2 in of
muck in each of the barrels and 3 in in the veggie filter.
if I remember right this setup ran from end july to sept
this may give a idea of how much a 5 gal bucket would pick up
--
John Rutz

I'm not Porg am not am not am so
see my pond at:
http://www.fuerjefe.com

Settlement Tanks
 

VF = Veggie Filter
PF = Pre-filter
BF = Bio-filter
AKCA = Associated Koi Clubs of American
KHA = Koi Health Advisors

Jan wrote: with small settling tanks, they may be easy to
clean due to size, but you will be cleaning them often,
I hope you have no plans of ever being sick or on vacation, cause no one can keep
up the pond better than the pond master builder (that's you).....

BV replied: This may be the most important paragraph that I have read
since I started my pond design.

:o)

I intended to have a bottom drain and skimmer run to my VF. In the VF, we plan to have a
decorative pot or urn sitting, raises a bit out of the water. I intend to
have the feed from the pond come in thru the bottom of this urn. The urn
will be seperated into two sections by some screening with the pump above
the screen.

You lost me. If I'm reading the above correctly it sounds like you're
thinking the pump is going to pull the water from the bottom drain and
skimmer? Submersible pumps "usually" push water. As on my ponds (and is
also the most highly recommended way of doing it by the AKCA/KHA materials)
the skimmer and bottom drain work by gravity.

This does not mean that if you have a 4 foot pond you need a 4 foot deep
VF. Gravity will still work on piping going uphill as long as it is below
the surface level of the pond.

You just don't want you piping go up, down and up, as bubbles can collect
at the high point before the piping goes down reducing pipe size due to the
trapped air.

* I'd used a 55 gallon barrel as you get more vertical space to keep the
screen off the bottom but also away from the hyacinth roots.

If buried, how do you easily clean it?

This is mentioned in my website, so short form: I clean the prefilter by
putting plugs in the bulkheads between the PF & BFs. Break my syphon (you'd
be turning a valve) lift out the water hyacinths to a holding bucket, grab
the screening and dump on the grass to rinse with a sprayer. Put old
submersible in to drain down to the muck and use my shop vac to suck out
the muck. (I have a full stock/overstock koi pond and I'm still only
cleaning my pre-filter every 6 - 8 weeks, takes about an hour).

I don't mind emptying the VF once or twice a year. I plan to make it
shallow, so that should not be a big deal.

Once a year, is almost a must if you have to winterize.... twice a year or
mid-season, even that might get old. Those pots are heavy. ;o) If someone
was where the winters were mild like zone 8 or higher, using a mechanical
filter before the VF and they probably could go a few years before cleaning
the VF.

The switch is a neccesity. I have a 5 year old and a 2.5 year old. 'Nuff
said?

Hey, water hyacinths will be your worst enemy over kids. I never had a
problem with my boys, but the ponds went in when the youngest was 5.
I'd be more worried about a younger child falling in. ~ jan


See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

Settlement Tanks
 

"~ jan" wrote in message
...
snip

Thanks for all of the tips...once again my design has evolved. This version
has existed for about 3 days now, so I am beginning to think I am close. OK
here goes...

Main Pond, 2500-3000 gallons or so
Twin bottom drains and skimmer routed together to a single feed pipe
Single feed pipe dumps into VF, 300-400 gallons.
A pump house made from a large rubbermaid pulls water from VF and empties
back to main pond
Pump will be separated from Rubbermaid using screen to protect against
debris in the pump
Urn will sit in middle of VF, and will have it's own small pump in order to
provide some splashing sounds and viewing interest.

BV.

Settlement Tanks
 

Yes, that's sounding better to me. :o) ~ jan

On Fri, 7 Feb 2003 09:02:29 -0500, "BenignVanilla" wrote:

Thanks for all of the tips...once again my design has evolved. This version
has existed for about 3 days now, so I am beginning to think I am close. OK
here goes...

Main Pond, 2500-3000 gallons or so
Twin bottom drains and skimmer routed together to a single feed pipe
Single feed pipe dumps into VF, 300-400 gallons.
A pump house made from a large rubbermaid pulls water from VF and empties
back to main pond
Pump will be separated from Rubbermaid using screen to protect against
debris in the pump
Urn will sit in middle of VF, and will have it's own small pump in order to
provide some splashing sounds and viewing interest.

BV.



See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website