Bottom Drains and Empty Ponds
 

For those of you with a bottom drain...how do you protect yourself against
emptying your pond if there is a failure somewhere upstream from your bottom
drain? Originally I was going to sit my pump on a shelf to protect against
this, but now that I plan to have a bottom drain, I am concerned. I am
routing my water to a veggie filter that may or may not be attached to the
main pond via a stream. If it is, I am concerned with the stream getting
blocked and emptying my pond. I am seriously considering not having a stream
and routing the water back via pipes to prevent this.

--
BenignVanilla
tibetanbeefgarden.com
x-no-archive: yes

Remove MY SPLEEN to email me.

Bottom Drains and Empty Ponds
 

My bottom drain empties into a settling/veggie pond and is pumped from there
into a bio-filter where it falls back into the main pond. The pump intake
from the settling/veggie pond is above the bottom of the main pond so I
never risk emptying the main pond. Over this winter, I had a leak somewhere
in my underground plumbing and my water level did drop but when it got below
the intake of the pump, the pump just shut off.

"BenignVanilla" wrote in
message ...
For those of you with a bottom drain...how do you protect yourself against
emptying your pond if there is a failure somewhere upstream from your
bottom
drain? Originally I was going to sit my pump on a shelf to protect against
this, but now that I plan to have a bottom drain, I am concerned. I am
routing my water to a veggie filter that may or may not be attached to the
main pond via a stream. If it is, I am concerned with the stream getting
blocked and emptying my pond. I am seriously considering not having a
stream
and routing the water back via pipes to prevent this.

--
BenignVanilla
tibetanbeefgarden.com
x-no-archive: yes

Remove MY SPLEEN to email me.

Bottom Drains and Empty Ponds
 

"Dan" wrote in message
...
My bottom drain empties into a settling/veggie pond and is pumped from
there
into a bio-filter where it falls back into the main pond. The pump intake
from the settling/veggie pond is above the bottom of the main pond so I
never risk emptying the main pond. Over this winter, I had a leak
somewhere
in my underground plumbing and my water level did drop but when it got
below
the intake of the pump, the pump just shut off.

That never occurred to me. I have been thinking the whole time I would have
bottom drain to pump to VF. I guess I could have bottom drain to VF, to pump
back to main pond. Does that make sense? Pump FROM the VF to the main pond
where the BD is?

BV.

Bottom Drains and Empty Ponds
 

My bottom drain and surface skimmer are gravity fed into the VF and then
pumped from the VF into a bio-filter where it then falls back into the main
pond. The only problem I have, is my make-shift prefilter on my pump gets
clogged and needs to be cleaned about once a week. However, the prefilter
is necessary on the pump intake so that the pump doesn't get clogged which
is a much bigger job cleaning. Any suggestions for a good pump prefilter?


"BenignVanilla" wrote in
message ...
"Dan" wrote in message
...
My bottom drain empties into a settling/veggie pond and is pumped from
there
into a bio-filter where it falls back into the main pond. The pump
intake
from the settling/veggie pond is above the bottom of the main pond so I
never risk emptying the main pond. Over this winter, I had a leak
somewhere
in my underground plumbing and my water level did drop but when it got
below
the intake of the pump, the pump just shut off.

That never occurred to me. I have been thinking the whole time I would
have
bottom drain to pump to VF. I guess I could have bottom drain to VF, to
pump
back to main pond. Does that make sense? Pump FROM the VF to the main pond
where the BD is?

BV.

Bottom Drains and Empty Ponds
 

Dan wrote:
My bottom drain and surface skimmer are gravity fed into the VF and then
pumped from the VF into a bio-filter where it then falls back into the main
pond. The only problem I have, is my make-shift prefilter on my pump gets
clogged and needs to be cleaned about once a week. However, the prefilter
is necessary on the pump intake so that the pump doesn't get clogged which
is a much bigger job cleaning. Any suggestions for a good pump prefilter?


Hi Dan,
I use a slotted planting basket filled with bioballs, put in
the pump and then put all into a meshed laundry basket (with
a slide closure). Then I lower the laundry basket into the
pond. It is easy to raise, just get a pole and hook the
rope closure. I rarely have to clean this filter. Others
have filled the basket with lava rocks, but I found them too
heavy.

--
Bonnie
NJ

Bottom Drains and Empty Ponds
 

Bonnie, thanks for your suggestion. I have an external pump that is
connected thru the side of my Veggie Filter by a 2 inch PVC pipe. I may be
able to run the pipe into a basket type set-up like you mention.

"Bonnie Espenshade" wrote in message
...
Dan wrote:
My bottom drain and surface skimmer are gravity fed into the VF and then
pumped from the VF into a bio-filter where it then falls back into the
main
pond. The only problem I have, is my make-shift prefilter on my pump
gets
clogged and needs to be cleaned about once a week. However, the
prefilter
is necessary on the pump intake so that the pump doesn't get clogged
which
is a much bigger job cleaning. Any suggestions for a good pump
prefilter?


Hi Dan,
I use a slotted planting basket filled with bioballs, put in
the pump and then put all into a meshed laundry basket (with
a slide closure). Then I lower the laundry basket into the
pond. It is easy to raise, just get a pole and hook the
rope closure. I rarely have to clean this filter. Others
have filled the basket with lava rocks, but I found them too
heavy.

--
Bonnie
NJ

Bottom Drains and Empty Ponds
 

If I was to do this, this will be my setup.

Pipe from Bottom Drain will have a backflow device in line, then to a pump
that empties into a biofilter that is elevated, then by gravity into my
veggie filter, then by gravity back into my pond.

Should the pump fail, the backflow device will stop the water from the
biofilter from going back into my pond thru the bottom drain. With this
setup if your pump fails then there will be no backflow into the pond.

The pipe breakage issue is a different problem that can be corrected with a
level switch similar to what you have in your fuel pump. Get this type of
switching device from your local plumbing supply store, connect the switch
to your pump. If the level goes below a predetermined level, then your pump
will shut off. (I will do some research into this myself soon and will
report back to the group)

Good luck, and keep your questions coming as I am learning a lot from the
answers you are getting.
--
_______________________________________
"Architecture is the ultimate erotic 'object'."
Bernard Tschumi, "Architecture & Transgression"

http://community.webshots.com/user/godwino
"Dan" wrote in message
...
My bottom drain empties into a settling/veggie pond and is pumped from
there
into a bio-filter where it falls back into the main pond. The pump intake
from the settling/veggie pond is above the bottom of the main pond so I
never risk emptying the main pond. Over this winter, I had a leak
somewhere
in my underground plumbing and my water level did drop but when it got
below
the intake of the pump, the pump just shut off.

"BenignVanilla" wrote in
message ...
For those of you with a bottom drain...how do you protect yourself
against
emptying your pond if there is a failure somewhere upstream from your
bottom
drain? Originally I was going to sit my pump on a shelf to protect
against
this, but now that I plan to have a bottom drain, I am concerned. I am
routing my water to a veggie filter that may or may not be attached to
the
main pond via a stream. If it is, I am concerned with the stream getting
blocked and emptying my pond. I am seriously considering not having a
stream
and routing the water back via pipes to prevent this.

--
BenignVanilla
tibetanbeefgarden.com
x-no-archive: yes

Remove MY SPLEEN to email me.

Bottom Drains and Empty Ponds
 

Not an issue in my pond. The bottom drain empties into the side of a
55 gallon barrel and the pump sits in the third barrel.
If this is a concern you could put the pump in a bucket. Allow the
water to flow over the rim of the bucket and be picked up at the
bottom by the pump.

Regards,

Hal

On Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:28:01 -0500, "BenignVanilla"
wrote:

For those of you with a bottom drain...how do you protect yourself against
emptying your pond if there is a failure somewhere upstream from your bottom
drain?

Bottom Drains and Empty Ponds
 

Check with a good plumbing supply store for a product called spaflex.
It is a sturdy by flexiable hose that you can use between the rigid pipe
and the pump.

"Dan" wrote in message
...
Bonnie, thanks for your suggestion. I have an external pump that is
connected thru the side of my Veggie Filter by a 2 inch PVC pipe. I may
be
able to run the pipe into a basket type set-up like you mention.

"Bonnie Espenshade" wrote in message
...
Dan wrote:
My bottom drain and surface skimmer are gravity fed into the VF and
then
pumped from the VF into a bio-filter where it then falls back into the
main
pond. The only problem I have, is my make-shift prefilter on my pump
gets
clogged and needs to be cleaned about once a week. However, the
prefilter
is necessary on the pump intake so that the pump doesn't get clogged
which
is a much bigger job cleaning. Any suggestions for a good pump
prefilter?


Hi Dan,
I use a slotted planting basket filled with bioballs, put in
the pump and then put all into a meshed laundry basket (with
a slide closure). Then I lower the laundry basket into the
pond. It is easy to raise, just get a pole and hook the
rope closure. I rarely have to clean this filter. Others
have filled the basket with lava rocks, but I found them too
heavy.

--
Bonnie
NJ

Bottom Drains and Empty Ponds
 

It is better to pump the water after it passes through the last filter.
Gravity feed all the filters and then pump the clean water back to
the ponds.

Howard
"Dan" wrote in message
...
My bottom drain and surface skimmer are gravity fed into the VF and then
pumped from the VF into a bio-filter where it then falls back into the
main
pond. The only problem I have, is my make-shift prefilter on my pump gets
clogged and needs to be cleaned about once a week. However, the prefilter
is necessary on the pump intake so that the pump doesn't get clogged which
is a much bigger job cleaning. Any suggestions for a good pump prefilter?


"BenignVanilla" wrote in
message ...
"Dan" wrote in message
...
My bottom drain empties into a settling/veggie pond and is pumped from
there
into a bio-filter where it falls back into the main pond. The pump
intake
from the settling/veggie pond is above the bottom of the main pond so
I
never risk emptying the main pond. Over this winter, I had a leak
somewhere
in my underground plumbing and my water level did drop but when it got
below
the intake of the pump, the pump just shut off.

That never occurred to me. I have been thinking the whole time I would
have
bottom drain to pump to VF. I guess I could have bottom drain to VF, to
pump
back to main pond. Does that make sense? Pump FROM the VF to the main
pond
where the BD is?

BV.

Bottom Drains and Empty Ponds
 

"Just Me "Koi"" wrote in message
...
snip
Should the pump fail, the backflow device will stop the water from the
biofilter from going back into my pond thru the bottom drain. With this
setup if your pump fails then there will be no backflow into the pond.

The backflow valve is only needed if the VF is above the pond right? If they
are at the same level, they should equalize, correct?

The pipe breakage issue is a different problem that can be corrected with
a
level switch similar to what you have in your fuel pump. Get this type of
switching device from your local plumbing supply store, connect the switch
to your pump. If the level goes below a predetermined level, then your
pump
will shut off. (I will do some research into this myself soon and will
report back to the group)

I'd love to hear what you find out.

BV.

Bottom Drains and Empty Ponds
 

What happens when some pond water evaporates?
Is it correct that the level of the pond will be maintained at the rim of
the first vessel connected to the bottom drain until the level of the pump
vessel is at the level of the pump itself?
The water buffer to compensate evaporation (until external water addition)
is only the volume of the vessel containing the pump.
As this volume is not so huge, we run the risk the pump has no more water to
pump.

Regards,

Pierre.

"Hal" wrote in message
...
Not an issue in my pond. The bottom drain empties into the side of a
55 gallon barrel and the pump sits in the third barrel.
If this is a concern you could put the pump in a bucket. Allow the
water to flow over the rim of the bucket and be picked up at the
bottom by the pump.

Regards,

Hal

On Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:28:01 -0500, "BenignVanilla"
wrote:

For those of you with a bottom drain...how do you protect yourself
against
emptying your pond if there is a failure somewhere upstream from your
bottom
drain?

Bottom Drains and Empty Ponds
 

You just make sure that the intake for the pump is below the lowest point
that you allow your pond water level to go.

"Pierre de Ponthiere" wrote in message
...
What happens when some pond water evaporates?
Is it correct that the level of the pond will be maintained at the rim of
the first vessel connected to the bottom drain until the level of the pump
vessel is at the level of the pump itself?
The water buffer to compensate evaporation (until external water addition)
is only the volume of the vessel containing the pump.
As this volume is not so huge, we run the risk the pump has no more water
to
pump.

Regards,

Pierre.

"Hal" wrote in message
...
Not an issue in my pond. The bottom drain empties into the side of a
55 gallon barrel and the pump sits in the third barrel.
If this is a concern you could put the pump in a bucket. Allow the
water to flow over the rim of the bucket and be picked up at the
bottom by the pump.

Regards,

Hal

On Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:28:01 -0500, "BenignVanilla"
wrote:

For those of you with a bottom drain...how do you protect yourself
against
emptying your pond if there is a failure somewhere upstream from your
bottom
drain?

Bottom Drains and Empty Ponds
 

On Thu, 6 Feb 2003 17:37:59 +0100, "Pierre de Ponthiere"
wrote:

What happens when some pond water evaporates?

It will evaporate and I top off the pond to the level I want it once a
week.
Is it correct that the level of the pond will be maintained at the rim of
the first vessel connected to the bottom drain until the level of the pump
vessel is at the level of the pump itself?

My priorities are fish then pump. I suggest putting the pump in a
bucket so the water will not flow into the bucket until the pond is
drained and fish die, but stop the pond depth at the top of the bucket
waterline. Waterline meaning a level plane (imaginary) from the top
of the bucket extending through the walls of the pond and across the
surface.
The water buffer to compensate evaporation (until external water addition)
is only the volume of the vessel containing the pump.
As this volume is not so huge, we run the risk the pump has no more water to
pump.

Not sure I understand, but try this. Lets say we dig a pond 2' deep
and use a 1' deep bucket weighted to the bottom of a 2' deep cavity on
the same plane as the pond, containing the pump. A gravity flow line
connects the two, bottom to bottom. The top of these bodies of
water, the pump cavity and the pond will also be on the same
waterline. That way water flows continually until the water level
drops below the rim of the bucket and the pump runs dry. If the pump
runs dry we can find a dead pump, but live fish in 1 foot of water
waiting to be rescued.

Regards,

Hal

Regards,

Pierre.

"Hal" wrote in message
.. .
Not an issue in my pond. The bottom drain empties into the side of a
55 gallon barrel and the pump sits in the third barrel.
If this is a concern you could put the pump in a bucket. Allow the
water to flow over the rim of the bucket and be picked up at the
bottom by the pump.

Regards,

Hal

On Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:28:01 -0500, "BenignVanilla"
wrote:

For those of you with a bottom drain...how do you protect yourself
against
emptying your pond if there is a failure somewhere upstream from your
bottom
drain?

Bottom Drains and Empty Ponds
 

I agree completely with your explanations when the connection is "bottom to
bottom".
But a lot of filters like Clean Pond 12 described at
http://www.verhaertnv.be/pdf/8A.pdf have the rim of the first vessel 1 or 2
inches below the maximum level. (The second vessel is filled by overflow of
the first one thru a vertical slit visible beteween the the 2 vessels). It
results that the pond level has to be maintained constant which can be a
problem during vacations...

Regards,

Pierre.
"Hal" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 6 Feb 2003 17:37:59 +0100, "Pierre de Ponthiere"
wrote:

What happens when some pond water evaporates?

It will evaporate and I top off the pond to the level I want it once a
week.
Is it correct that the level of the pond will be maintained at the rim of
the first vessel connected to the bottom drain until the level of the
pump
vessel is at the level of the pump itself?

My priorities are fish then pump. I suggest putting the pump in a
bucket so the water will not flow into the bucket until the pond is
drained and fish die, but stop the pond depth at the top of the bucket
waterline. Waterline meaning a level plane (imaginary) from the top
of the bucket extending through the walls of the pond and across the
surface.
The water buffer to compensate evaporation (until external water
addition)
is only the volume of the vessel containing the pump.
As this volume is not so huge, we run the risk the pump has no more water
to
pump.

Not sure I understand, but try this. Lets say we dig a pond 2' deep
and use a 1' deep bucket weighted to the bottom of a 2' deep cavity on
the same plane as the pond, containing the pump. A gravity flow line
connects the two, bottom to bottom. The top of these bodies of
water, the pump cavity and the pond will also be on the same
waterline. That way water flows continually until the water level
drops below the rim of the bucket and the pump runs dry. If the pump
runs dry we can find a dead pump, but live fish in 1 foot of water
waiting to be rescued.

Regards,

Hal

Regards,

Pierre.

"Hal" wrote in message
.. .
Not an issue in my pond. The bottom drain empties into the side of a
55 gallon barrel and the pump sits in the third barrel.
If this is a concern you could put the pump in a bucket. Allow the
water to flow over the rim of the bucket and be picked up at the
bottom by the pump.

Regards,

Hal

On Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:28:01 -0500, "BenignVanilla"
wrote:

For those of you with a bottom drain...how do you protect yourself
against
emptying your pond if there is a failure somewhere upstream from your
bottom
drain?

Bottom Drains and Empty Ponds
 

I use barrel filters and the water can drop 6" without a problem.
Since the bottom drain is plumbed into the side of the first barrel
that is as low as the pond water level can be pumped out by the pump.
If you wish to use a filter like you describe you might want to run a
water line and hook up a constant level switch for your pond. If you
have chloramine in the water that brings up another problem.

Regards,

Hal

On Sat, 8 Feb 2003 11:30:30 +0100, "Pierre de Ponthiere"
wrote:

I agree completely with your explanations when the connection is "bottom to
bottom".
But a lot of filters like Clean Pond 12 described at
http://www.verhaertnv.be/pdf/8A.pdf have the rim of the first vessel 1 or 2
inches below the maximum level. (The second vessel is filled by overflow of
the first one thru a vertical slit visible beteween the the 2 vessels). It
results that the pond level has to be maintained constant which can be a
problem during vacations...

Bottom Drains and Empty Ponds
 

I disagree with several of your cons to a bottom drain.
snip
Con's
Potential leakage of pipes below the ground level
If the pipes are properly installed and of decent quality, this should
never be a problem.
Maintain the pond waterlevel in strict limits
My water level can vary 15" without it being a problem. It comes down
to proper design.
Winterizing, probably more difficult.(how to empty the pipe comming from the
pond, even with a valve the upstream water could freeze)
I live in northeast Ohio where we routinely have stretches of zero and
even sub-zero temps and have not had any problem. I just keep a 25
watt bulb in the pump house to keep the temp above freezing. The pump
house lid has a piece of 2" foam insulation.

More difficult to install
Yes, but this is a one time labor, however, it eliminates a lot of
future work cleaning the pond.

Bottom Drains and Empty Ponds
 

"Pierre de Ponthiere" wrote:


2) Pump in the pond
Pro's
Easy to install
No leakage below the ground level
Empty pond by pipe leakage avoided with a flottating switch in supply
electrical line
Pond waterlevel is not critical
Safe winterizing if all pipes (above ground level) are emptied before
freeze.

Con's
Pump hashs the dirt sent to the filters (New designs of Vortex pumps reduce
the problem?)
Settlement vessel will not work properly -- install brushes in its
More maintenance: purge the settlement vessel and clean the filter pump,
clean the brushes,..
Difficult to hide the bio filter (filter put on the ground)

Cons:

pump that can pull in solids (say up to 3/8 inch for example), will pull
in plants and things like leaf stalks, and plug up the filter.

You can limit that by installing a pre-filter, but then you need to
clean it.

With a pump in the pond your gonna have to pull it out and clean it
periodically, at best every few weeks.

this has been my experience.

Bottom Drains and Empty Ponds
 

My prefilter only needs cleaning every 3-4 months.
It is a milk crate. Open end is down.
Exit pipe is up through center of bottom.
Wrapped with two layers of fiber glass screen
on four sides and bottom of crate.
To clean I lift out the whole thing and spray with
a water hose.


--
D. Wain Garrison
If you can read you can learn anything, for
there are those smarter than you who can
write, however, not everyone who can write
is smarter than you.
"John Hines" wrote in message
...
"Pierre de Ponthiere" wrote:


2) Pump in the pond
Pro's
Easy to install
No leakage below the ground level
Empty pond by pipe leakage avoided with a flottating switch in supply
electrical line
Pond waterlevel is not critical
Safe winterizing if all pipes (above ground level) are emptied before
freeze.

Con's
Pump hashs the dirt sent to the filters (New designs of Vortex pumps
reduce
the problem?)
Settlement vessel will not work properly -- install brushes in its
More maintenance: purge the settlement vessel and clean the filter
pump,
clean the brushes,..
Difficult to hide the bio filter (filter put on the ground)

Cons:

pump that can pull in solids (say up to 3/8 inch for example), will
pull
in plants and things like leaf stalks, and plug up the filter.

You can limit that by installing a pre-filter, but then you need to
clean it.

With a pump in the pond your gonna have to pull it out and clean it
periodically, at best every few weeks.

this has been my experience.