Mature size of these roses
 

Thanks to Allegra, I have a rose order coming this way soon. G I
decided I couldn't live without Darlow's Enigma another year so I
ordered from Ashdown. Of course, one can't order just one rose, so in
the same package will arrive Secret Garden Musk and Purple Buttons.

I also have some cuttings rooting that I will need to place. They are
Safrano, Gruss an Auchen, Marie Van Houte and Maman Cochet.

Now I have to decide where the new presents might fit in my limited
garden space. So I'm looking for advice.

Can anyone tell me how the new teas (Safrano, Marie Van Houte, and
Maman Cochet) compare in size to say Lady Hillingdon or Mrs. BR Cant?

What about Gruss an Auchen? Can it be compared in size to Belinda's
Dream, Summer Snow, or Angel Face? Upright like an HT or more bushy?

And last but certainly not least, Can I grow Darlows Enigma and
Secret Garden Musk as large free standing roses like I do with
Crepuscule and Mrs. Cant, or will they need support like my regular
climbers, Reve d'O and Sombreuil?

I've used examples of roses they I already grow to comapre with the
new ones. It seems that will be more accurate than just giving a
mature size since climate plays such a large part.
TIA

Mature size of these roses
 

Mature size of these roses
 

saki wrote:
(Julie) wrote in
om:

Thanks to Allegra, I have a rose order coming this way soon. G I
decided I couldn't live without Darlow's Enigma another year so I
ordered from Ashdown. Of course, one can't order just one rose, so in
the same package will arrive Secret Garden Musk and Purple Buttons.

Excellent choices! I have a Secret Garden Musk Climber arriving soon from
Ashdown; have the others already and think they're quite fab and gear.

I second the same "excellent choices!" exclamation about Purple Buttons.
PB took a little while to find its feet in its first year around here,
with may lackadaisical rose care, but when it settled down and in its
second year, it was quite fabulous.

Now I have to decide where the new presents might fit in my limited
garden space. So I'm looking for advice.

Can you tear up any lawn? I always do when I'm facing this situation. :-)

LOL! Depends on whether the other people in the household like their
lawns as much as we like our roses, I suppose.

What about Gruss an Auchen? Can it be compared in size to Belinda's
Dream, Summer Snow, or Angel Face? Upright like an HT or more bushy?

About Angel Face's size, if I recall correctly (though I haven't grown
Angel Face since the early seventies). I've grown Gruss an Aachen from
various sources for years and think it's superb. For me it's never more
than two feet tall, sometimes less depending how it's pruned. Its habit
is bushy rather than upright.

I don't grow AF or BD or SS, but I agree completely with what Saki is
saying about how Gruss an Aachen grows.

Some folks have previously told me that Secret Garden will eat my home
but more recently those same folks seem to have revised their account and
swear that I can grow it in a smaller space. I suppose careful shaping
would help. I plan to try it as a stand-alone rose for now and will see
how it goes.

Ummm ... IIRC, the SGM at San Jose Heritage is a nice 5' x 5' bush, at
least the last time I saw it. It has been a long time, but I will check
again when I have the chance.

--
Radika
California
USDA 9 / Sunset 15

Mature size of these roses
 

Radika Kesavan wrote:

saki wrote:

Some folks have previously told me that Secret Garden will eat my home
but more recently those same folks seem to have revised their account and
swear that I can grow it in a smaller space. I suppose careful shaping
would help. I plan to try it as a stand-alone rose for now and will see
how it goes.

Ummm ... IIRC, the SGM at San Jose Heritage is a nice 5' x 5' bush, at
least the last time I saw it. It has been a long time, but I will check
again when I have the chance.

SGMCl has 5 to 6 foot canes in my garden, quite lax and lithe, with
plenty of prickles. The wood is a little delicate to galls, scratches
and assaults. I intend to grow mine as a large, fountain shaped shrub,
like a hybrid musk (big surprise there ;~) Hmm, I only planted it last
year, May 2002. Yes, it did not like living in a pot and needed to get
in the ground. The minute that sucker is ready to move out of a 2
gallon, I'd put it directly in the ground.

--
-=-
Cass
Zone 9 San Francisco Bay Area
http://home.attbi.com/~cassbernstein/index.html

Mature size of these roses
 

Cass wrote

SGMCl has 5 to 6 foot canes in my garden, quite lax and lithe, with
plenty of prickles. The wood is a little delicate to galls, scratches
and assaults. I intend to grow mine as a large, fountain shaped shrub,
like a hybrid musk (big surprise there ;~) Hmm, I only planted it last
year, May 2002. Yes, it did not like living in a pot and needed to get
in the ground. The minute that sucker is ready to move out of a 2
gallon, I'd put it directly in the ground.

Thanks Cass. That's what I would like to do with mine also, just
wasn't sure it would stand up alone. I have some others growing that
way and I love the way the plants look. Mine's coming from Ashdown, 1
qt I think, so it shouldn't be long before it's ready for the ground.
Is the fragrance as good as I've heard? Honestly Shiva this is the
first rose I've ever bought 'specially for its reported smell.

Mature size of these roses
 

saki wrote


Can you tear up any lawn? I always do when I'm facing this situation. :-)


As Radika responded, I don't live alone and the other person here
likes his grass. But I usually win a little more garden space when I
have a bunch of potted roses on the deck. After he walks by them
about 50 times and gets pricked, he decides they might be better off
in the ground. The other option is to put the pots on the lawn in
various locations. When he has to mow around them a few times, I
think I'll get my way. We addicts have to learn all these methods to
support our habit. :)

What about Gruss an Auchen? Can it be compared in size to Belinda's
Dream, Summer Snow, or Angel Face? Upright like an HT or more bushy?

About Angel Face's size, if I recall correctly (though I haven't grown
Angel Face since the early seventies). I've grown Gruss an Aachen from
various sources for years and think it's superb. For me it's never more
than two feet tall, sometimes less depending how it's pruned. Its habit
is bushy rather than upright.

That gives me a couple of choices. I have space for a smallish, bushy
rose at the base of White Maman Cochet, Cl. I was thinking of Purple
Buttons for this spot. I'd have to see the blooms on GaA first, to
make sure they don't clash. I expect them to be quite similar in
color. Angel FAce may come out this year, I'm getting tired of that
one cane and GaA could be the replacement.


And last but certainly not least, Can I grow Darlows Enigma and
Secret Garden Musk as large free standing roses like I do with
Crepuscule and Mrs. Cant, or will they need support like my regular
climbers, Reve d'O and Sombreuil?

I've seen a stand of Darlow's Enigma pruned into a four-foot-tall hedge
and it works; you may wish to let it climb though (mine is new as of last
fall and I'm not sure where it's going at the moment, but I'm inclined to
let it climb a pillar in the back garden).

I was kind of hoping this one would fountain out like SGM, but if it
doesn't I could replace Barbara Worl. She just isn't cutting it here,
beautiful blooms occasionally, but not enough of them or leaves for my
taste. This one may have to wait and see where I can find a space.


Some folks have previously told me that Secret Garden will eat my home
but more recently those same folks seem to have revised their account and
swear that I can grow it in a smaller space. I suppose careful shaping
would help. I plan to try it as a stand-alone rose for now and will see
how it goes.

I've never had one try to eat the house (yet), but a couple have grown
under the siding and the soffit. I'll keep this one away from the
house just in case. I'm not good at shaping them, I really like to
let them grow, unfortunatly I have a little lot and really like big
roses. :)

Thanks for the advice of experience.

Mature size of these roses
 

Radika Kesavan wrote
saki wrote:
(Julie) wrote in
om:

Thanks to Allegra, I have a rose order coming this way soon. G I
decided I couldn't live without Darlow's Enigma another year so I
ordered from Ashdown. Of course, one can't order just one rose, so in
the same package will arrive Secret Garden Musk and Purple Buttons.

Excellent choices! I have a Secret Garden Musk Climber arriving soon from
Ashdown; have the others already and think they're quite fab and gear.

I second the same "excellent choices!" exclamation about Purple Buttons.
PB took a little while to find its feet in its first year around here,
with may lackadaisical rose care, but when it settled down and in its
second year, it was quite fabulous.

Thank you. PB has been on my wish list for a long time. I keep
trying roses of this color without much success, but I think this one
will work out here. At least I'm hopeful. The key will be its BS
resistance or lack thereof. If it can keep its leaves, I'll be
thrilled! The scent and number of blooms are secendary.


Now I have to decide where the new presents might fit in my limited
garden space. So I'm looking for advice.

Can you tear up any lawn? I always do when I'm facing this situation. :-)

LOL! Depends on whether the other people in the household like their
lawns as much as we like our roses, I suppose.

I see you understand my situation very well. :)


What about Gruss an Auchen? Can it be compared in size to Belinda's
Dream, Summer Snow, or Angel Face? Upright like an HT or more bushy?

About Angel Face's size, if I recall correctly (though I haven't grown
Angel Face since the early seventies). I've grown Gruss an Aachen from
various sources for years and think it's superb. For me it's never more
than two feet tall, sometimes less depending how it's pruned. Its habit
is bushy rather than upright.

I don't grow AF or BD or SS, but I agree completely with what Saki is
saying about how Gruss an Aachen grows.

That't good news. Small and bushy, I need to choose more roses like
this, instead of the really BIG ones that require so much space. But
I really, really like big roses!

Mature size of these roses
 

Mature size of these roses
 

Julie wrote:

Cass wrote

SGMCl has 5 to 6 foot canes in my garden, quite lax and lithe, with
plenty of prickles. The wood is a little delicate to galls, scratches
and assaults. I intend to grow mine as a large, fountain shaped shrub,
like a hybrid musk (big surprise there ;~) Hmm, I only planted it last
year, May 2002. Yes, it did not like living in a pot and needed to get
in the ground. The minute that sucker is ready to move out of a 2
gallon, I'd put it directly in the ground.

Thanks Cass. That's what I would like to do with mine also, just
wasn't sure it would stand up alone. I have some others growing that
way and I love the way the plants look. Mine's coming from Ashdown, 1
qt I think, so it shouldn't be long before it's ready for the ground.
Is the fragrance as good as I've heard?

hmm. The clove scent is unusual, tho to my nose, nothing smells better
on the air than Excellenz von Schubert and Lavender Lassie. I'm talking
about smell from 10 feet. Up close, I'm a sucker for the bourbons. My
SGMC is grown on an open windy hillside. Maybe in a protected, warm,
close space, the scent would carry on the air. You're in a warm
climate, as I recall? You can let us know what you think, after it has
a chance to grow a bit.

--
-=-
Cass
Zone 9 San Francisco Bay Area
http://home.attbi.com/~cassbernstein/index.html

Mature size of these roses
 

Julie wrote:
Radika Kesavan wrote:

I second the same "excellent choices!" exclamation about Purple Buttons.
PB took a little while to find its feet in its first year around here,
with may lackadaisical rose care, but when it settled down and in its
second year, it was quite fabulous.

Thank you. PB has been on my wish list for a long time. I keep
trying roses of this color without much success, but I think this one
will work out here. At least I'm hopeful. The key will be its BS
resistance or lack thereof. If it can keep its leaves, I'll be
thrilled! The scent and number of blooms are secendary.

Good luck. Out here, before it settled down, it suffered from rust, in a
sunny and open spot, which is very unusual. Every time I removed the
rusty leaves, new and vigorous ones sprung up very quickly. Needed a lot
of water, and finally, settled down beautifully with lots of leaves,
flowers and everything. I will be very eager to know about its blackspot
resistance. Since it is a gorgeous rose, I wish for your sake that it is
able to hold on. It might take more than a year for it before you can
given an honest assessment of whether or not it is a keeper.

LOL! Depends on whether the other people in the household like their
lawns as much as we like our roses, I suppose.

I see you understand my situation very well. :)

Heh Heh. Right.

Gruss an Aachen

That't good news. Small and bushy, I need to choose more roses like
this, instead of the really BIG ones that require so much space. But
I really, really like big roses!

Same here, Julie. Big, tall, beautiful and handsome, very productive,
self-supporting, disease free - I might as well be describing what I
would like to see in an adolescent girl or boy :-).

--
Radika
California
USDA 9 / Sunset 15

Mature size of these roses
 

Radika Kesavan wrote

(Purple Buttons)
Good luck. Out here, before it settled down, it suffered from rust, in a
sunny and open spot, which is very unusual. Every time I removed the
rusty leaves, new and vigorous ones sprung up very quickly. Needed a lot
of water, and finally, settled down beautifully with lots of leaves,
flowers and everything. I will be very eager to know about its blackspot
resistance. Since it is a gorgeous rose, I wish for your sake that it is
able to hold on. It might take more than a year for it before you can
given an honest assessment of whether or not it is a keeper.


Rust is almost nonexistant here, I've never seen it on a rose, but I
saw something that I *think* was rust on a plumeria in a nursery.
This is the home of choice for BS (and thrips and aphids and...).
I've never given up on a rose in less than two years, If its color and
scent are as advertised, I'll give it plenty of time to prove itself.

LOL! Depends on whether the other people in the household like their
lawns as much as we like our roses, I suppose.

I see you understand my situation very well. :)

Heh Heh. Right.

Gruss an Aachen

That't good news. Small and bushy, I need to choose more roses like
this, instead of the really BIG ones that require so much space. But
I really, really like big roses!

Same here, Julie. Big, tall, beautiful and handsome, very productive,
self-supporting, disease free - I might as well be describing what I
would like to see in an adolescent girl or boy :-).

or a man....vbg

Mature size of these roses
 

Cass wrote

( Secret Garden Musk Climber)
hmm. The clove scent is unusual, tho to my nose, nothing smells better
on the air than Excellenz von Schubert and Lavender Lassie. I'm talking
about smell from 10 feet. Up close, I'm a sucker for the bourbons. My
SGMC is grown on an open windy hillside. Maybe in a protected, warm,
close space, the scent would carry on the air. You're in a warm
climate, as I recall? You can let us know what you think, after it has
a chance to grow a bit.

I believe SGMC is thought to be a descendant of R. Mouchata(sp?) and
as such has a powerful and unique fragrance. I've never seen or
smelled R.M only read so much about its scent I had to try SGMC.
I don't have any roses whose scent catches my attention from across
the garden. I can smell Belinda's Dream when I pass by, but I must
stick my nose into most of them to get any smell. And even then
several that are supposed to be fragrant are not. Defective nose I
suppose.

Mature size of these roses
 

saki wrote

What clash are you trying to avoid? Form or color? White Maman Cochet
should not clash with Gruss an Aachen in either way, though to use them
together will add some pale tones to that section of the garden; Gruss
blooms are a lovely shell-pink/apricot at first but have a tendency to fade
after a few days, though not to pure white. Gruss's OGR form is quite
wonderful, IMHO, and its scent superb.

Color. I like highly contrasting colors like purple with orange, the
pinks are often close but clashing to my eyes. Your mention of the
apricot in GaA makes me think I would not like it near White Maman
Cochet.

I could even see planting a couple Gruss's and a Purple Buttons at the base
of White Maman; this would be an interesting contrast of tones from pale to
deep. If you're trying to hide White Maman's base, Gruss might be the
better choice because it's a tad taller than Purple Buttons.

I'm trying to cover the base of WMC, but not the canes on its trellis.
I find the canes very interesting, can't really describe it, but I
enjoy seeing at them exposed. That is so unlike me, who can't stand
to see naked roses, but it just fits on this one. (Maybe because it's
a climber and I think it should look that way?)

My other experience with Purple Buttons is that (a) it really likes heat,
and (b) it loves being in a pot. My Gruss's over the years have endured
being in a pot but really like the ground. I don't know if this helps (and
my So Cal experiences may not parallel yours) but I thought I'd mention it.


It does help, I had considered putting PB in a pot at the base of WMC.
The pot would help conceal the base and give the roots on PB a space
of their own.
I will be able to keep PB plenty of heat, I only hope it appreciates
the humidity as well!

Mature size of these roses
 

Cass wrote

( Secret Garden Musk Climber)
hmm. The clove scent is unusual, tho to my nose, nothing smells better
on the air than Excellenz von Schubert and Lavender Lassie. I'm talking
about smell from 10 feet. Up close, I'm a sucker for the bourbons. My
SGMC is grown on an open windy hillside. Maybe in a protected, warm,
close space, the scent would carry on the air. You're in a warm
climate, as I recall? You can let us know what you think, after it has
a chance to grow a bit.

I believe SGMC is thought to be a descendant of R. Mouchata(sp?) and
as such has a powerful and unique fragrance. I've never seen or
smelled R.M only read so much about its scent I had to try SGMC.
I don't have any roses whose scent catches my attention from across
the garden. I can smell Belinda's Dream when I pass by, but I must
stick my nose into most of them to get any smell. And even then
several that are supposed to be fragrant are not. Defective nose I
suppose.

Mature size of these roses
 

saki wrote

What clash are you trying to avoid? Form or color? White Maman Cochet
should not clash with Gruss an Aachen in either way, though to use them
together will add some pale tones to that section of the garden; Gruss
blooms are a lovely shell-pink/apricot at first but have a tendency to fade
after a few days, though not to pure white. Gruss's OGR form is quite
wonderful, IMHO, and its scent superb.

Color. I like highly contrasting colors like purple with orange, the
pinks are often close but clashing to my eyes. Your mention of the
apricot in GaA makes me think I would not like it near White Maman
Cochet.

I could even see planting a couple Gruss's and a Purple Buttons at the base
of White Maman; this would be an interesting contrast of tones from pale to
deep. If you're trying to hide White Maman's base, Gruss might be the
better choice because it's a tad taller than Purple Buttons.

I'm trying to cover the base of WMC, but not the canes on its trellis.
I find the canes very interesting, can't really describe it, but I
enjoy seeing at them exposed. That is so unlike me, who can't stand
to see naked roses, but it just fits on this one. (Maybe because it's
a climber and I think it should look that way?)

My other experience with Purple Buttons is that (a) it really likes heat,
and (b) it loves being in a pot. My Gruss's over the years have endured
being in a pot but really like the ground. I don't know if this helps (and
my So Cal experiences may not parallel yours) but I thought I'd mention it.


It does help, I had considered putting PB in a pot at the base of WMC.
The pot would help conceal the base and give the roots on PB a space
of their own.
I will be able to keep PB plenty of heat, I only hope it appreciates
the humidity as well!

Mature size of these roses
 

Cass wrote

( Secret Garden Musk Climber)
hmm. The clove scent is unusual, tho to my nose, nothing smells better
on the air than Excellenz von Schubert and Lavender Lassie. I'm talking
about smell from 10 feet. Up close, I'm a sucker for the bourbons. My
SGMC is grown on an open windy hillside. Maybe in a protected, warm,
close space, the scent would carry on the air. You're in a warm
climate, as I recall? You can let us know what you think, after it has
a chance to grow a bit.

I believe SGMC is thought to be a descendant of R. Mouchata(sp?) and
as such has a powerful and unique fragrance. I've never seen or
smelled R.M only read so much about its scent I had to try SGMC.
I don't have any roses whose scent catches my attention from across
the garden. I can smell Belinda's Dream when I pass by, but I must
stick my nose into most of them to get any smell. And even then
several that are supposed to be fragrant are not. Defective nose I
suppose.

Mature size of these roses
 

saki wrote

What clash are you trying to avoid? Form or color? White Maman Cochet
should not clash with Gruss an Aachen in either way, though to use them
together will add some pale tones to that section of the garden; Gruss
blooms are a lovely shell-pink/apricot at first but have a tendency to fade
after a few days, though not to pure white. Gruss's OGR form is quite
wonderful, IMHO, and its scent superb.

Color. I like highly contrasting colors like purple with orange, the
pinks are often close but clashing to my eyes. Your mention of the
apricot in GaA makes me think I would not like it near White Maman
Cochet.

I could even see planting a couple Gruss's and a Purple Buttons at the base
of White Maman; this would be an interesting contrast of tones from pale to
deep. If you're trying to hide White Maman's base, Gruss might be the
better choice because it's a tad taller than Purple Buttons.

I'm trying to cover the base of WMC, but not the canes on its trellis.
I find the canes very interesting, can't really describe it, but I
enjoy seeing at them exposed. That is so unlike me, who can't stand
to see naked roses, but it just fits on this one. (Maybe because it's
a climber and I think it should look that way?)

My other experience with Purple Buttons is that (a) it really likes heat,
and (b) it loves being in a pot. My Gruss's over the years have endured
being in a pot but really like the ground. I don't know if this helps (and
my So Cal experiences may not parallel yours) but I thought I'd mention it.


It does help, I had considered putting PB in a pot at the base of WMC.
The pot would help conceal the base and give the roots on PB a space
of their own.
I will be able to keep PB plenty of heat, I only hope it appreciates
the humidity as well!

Mature size of these roses
 

"Julie" wrote in message
om...
Thanks to Allegra, I have a rose order coming this way soon. G I
decided I couldn't live without Darlow's Enigma another year so I
ordered from Ashdown.

Hello Julie,

You are going to love Darlow's Enigma, he is really a sweetheart
of a rose. It has such an elegant stand, I find it hard to explain.
Demure but sexy if you please. I guess you could say I truly,
truly like (!) this rose.

Yesterday I went out in the soft rain and planted Rouge Royale
and Taboo, the one rose that was eaten by cane borers probably
for a year before we bought the house. It put out a single solitary
bloom of the darkest red I have ever seen and it was breathtaking.
So, this year we found one of the new own root JP and we got it
at Birds' the nursery JD -who by the way has dropped off the face
of the earth as far as I can tell (are you listening JD?)- turned us on
last year. We also got E.Veyrat Hermanos in a big, and I do mean
big pot by the fountain hoping the two clematis that go over the
arch will eventually shake hands with it and Champney's Pink
across the arch.

Here still wet, gray and cold. But a some cuttings have rooted
gloriously, and in spite of an unhealthy dose of powdery mildew
all over Zephirine - the milk treatment didn't do a thing I am afraid
no matter what ratio, 5 to 1, 4 to 1, 3 to 1 , back to the old spray -
the rest is breaking dormancy with a whole heck of a lot basals,
and if Spring doesn't come here soon...

I never thought I would say this, but at times like this California
even sounds like a nice place to move in order to grow roses...
just kidding! ;)

How are your roses doing?

Allegra

Mature size of these roses
 

On 28 Feb 2003 13:43:51 -0800, (Julie) wrote:

What about Gruss an Auchen?

Gruss an Aachen will grow to be about 3 feet tall and 3 feet wide.
Many people consider this rose to be the world's first floribunda. It
is fragrant, blooms a lot and is very beautiful.

Everyone who is a rose lover should grow this one.

Bob Bauer
Zone 6 in Salt Lake City
http://www.rose-roses.com/

Mature size of these roses
 

"Allegra" wrote in news:hieba.35084$L1.7311
@sccrnsc02:

You are going to love Darlow's Enigma, he is really a sweetheart
of a rose. It has such an elegant stand, I find it hard to explain.
Demure but sexy if you please. I guess you could say I truly,
truly like (!) this rose.

I have a yearling of Darlow, so it's still quite small, but buds are
forming. I'm still not sure how much the plant will actually climb this
year but I'm looking forward to this rose as well.

Here still wet, gray and cold. But a some cuttings have rooted
gloriously, and in spite of an unhealthy dose of powdery mildew
all over Zephirine - the milk treatment didn't do a thing I am afraid
no matter what ratio, 5 to 1, 4 to 1, 3 to 1 , back to the old spray....

The only roses I'm having mildew problems with right now are two Fragrant
Clouds, both in full sun but fussing anyway. I tried the milk spray (using
whole milk, 5 parts water to one part milk as recommended). I saw some
improvement but not enough to warrant continuing its use. I switched to one
of the Safer Products for powdery mildew---can't recall which one but I
think it has some Neem oil in it. Now things are looking up.

My two Zepherines, which have finally bloomed after three years of waiting,
are in a slightly different locale but have not shown any signs of powdery
mildew despite their legendary susceptibility. Amazing how different the
microclimates can be from back to front garden.

----

Mature size of these roses
 

Allegra wrote:

Here still wet, gray and cold. But a some cuttings have rooted
gloriously, and in spite of an unhealthy dose of powdery mildew
all over Zephirine - the milk treatment didn't do a thing I am afraid
no matter what ratio, 5 to 1, 4 to 1, 3 to 1 , back to the old spray -
the rest is breaking dormancy with a whole heck of a lot basals,
and if Spring doesn't come here soon...

I heard of someone who swears by Listerine for PM. This is what
desperation will lead us to.

Mature size of these roses
 

Cass wrote:
Allegra wrote:

Here still wet, gray and cold. But a some cuttings have rooted
gloriously, and in spite of an unhealthy dose of powdery mildew
all over Zephirine - the milk treatment didn't do a thing I am afraid
no matter what ratio, 5 to 1, 4 to 1, 3 to 1 , back to the old spray -
the rest is breaking dormancy with a whole heck of a lot basals,
and if Spring doesn't come here soon...


I heard of someone who swears by Listerine for PM. This is what
desperation will lead us to.

Ya know, Cass. That really ought to work well! Really, it ought to work
as an excellent antimocrobial, and all with natural products,
essential oils that is too, all known for aeons as antimicrobials before
micorbes were even known. I kid you not. Here is an excerpt from an
interesting website, marked with (my) emphasis to make the point:

Phenolics
Lister first suggested the used of phenol (carbolic acid) for
sterilization in surgery
the problem with phenol is that it is very irritating and has a bad odor
today phenol is still used in throat lozenges and in throat sprays
phenolics are organic compounds similar to phenol but without the bad
smell and irritancy of phenol
the active ingredient in Lysol is ortho-phenylphenol
it is derived from coal tar and is a class of compounds called cresols
Lysol is also 79% alcohol, enhancing the effectiveness of the phenylphenol
another cresol is hexachlorophene, used as a surgical scrub and the
active ingredient in pHisoHex
hexachlorophene is also used in toothpaste, deodorants and soaps
it is effective against Staphylococci and Streptococci common skin pathogens
phenolics are good disinfectants because they are stable and persistent
*Listerine is another common antiseptic and was first concocted by
Lister in 1879
Warner-Lambert picked it up in 1881 and today it is a $400 million per
year product
Listerine is a mixture of thymol, eucalyptol, menthol and methyl
salicylate: natural products ("essential oils") that include phenolics
Listerine also contains over 25% alcohol which enhances its effectiveness
phenolics act by disrupting cell membranes, inactivating enzymes, and
denaturing proteins*

All that was lifed from:
http://webs.wichita.edu/mschneegurt/...lecture19.html

--
Radika
California
USDA 9 / Sunset 15

Mature size of these roses
 

Radika,

Would the alcohol harm the vegetation? Seems like it might burn the leaves.
But what do I know? I'm no chemist....

JimS.


"Radika Kesavan" wrote in message
...
Cass wrote:
Allegra wrote:

Here still wet, gray and cold. But a some cuttings have rooted
gloriously, and in spite of an unhealthy dose of powdery mildew
all over Zephirine - the milk treatment didn't do a thing I am afraid
no matter what ratio, 5 to 1, 4 to 1, 3 to 1 , back to the old spray -
the rest is breaking dormancy with a whole heck of a lot basals,
and if Spring doesn't come here soon...


I heard of someone who swears by Listerine for PM. This is what
desperation will lead us to.

Ya know, Cass. That really ought to work well! Really, it ought to work
as an excellent antimocrobial, and all with natural products,
essential oils that is too, all known for aeons as antimicrobials before
micorbes were even known. I kid you not. Here is an excerpt from an
interesting website, marked with (my) emphasis to make the point:

Phenolics
Lister first suggested the used of phenol (carbolic acid) for
sterilization in surgery
the problem with phenol is that it is very irritating and has a bad odor
today phenol is still used in throat lozenges and in throat sprays
phenolics are organic compounds similar to phenol but without the bad
smell and irritancy of phenol
the active ingredient in Lysol is ortho-phenylphenol
it is derived from coal tar and is a class of compounds called cresols
Lysol is also 79% alcohol, enhancing the effectiveness of the phenylphenol
another cresol is hexachlorophene, used as a surgical scrub and the
active ingredient in pHisoHex
hexachlorophene is also used in toothpaste, deodorants and soaps
it is effective against Staphylococci and Streptococci common skin
pathogens
phenolics are good disinfectants because they are stable and persistent
*Listerine is another common antiseptic and was first concocted by
Lister in 1879
Warner-Lambert picked it up in 1881 and today it is a $400 million per
year product
Listerine is a mixture of thymol, eucalyptol, menthol and methyl
salicylate: natural products ("essential oils") that include phenolics
Listerine also contains over 25% alcohol which enhances its effectiveness
phenolics act by disrupting cell membranes, inactivating enzymes, and
denaturing proteins*

All that was lifed from:
http://webs.wichita.edu/mschneegurt/...lecture19.html

--
Radika
California
USDA 9 / Sunset 15

Mature size of these roses
 

Radika Kesavan wrote:

Cass wrote:

I heard of someone who swears by Listerine for PM. This is what
desperation will lead us to.

Ya know, Cass. That really ought to work well! Really, it ought to work
as an excellent antimocrobial, and all with natural products,
essential oils that is too, all known for aeons as antimicrobials before
micorbes were even known. I kid you not. Here is an excerpt from an
interesting website, marked with (my) emphasis to make the point:

Phenolics
Lister first suggested the used of phenol (carbolic acid) for
sterilization in surgery
the problem with phenol is that it is very irritating and has a bad odor
today phenol is still used in throat lozenges and in throat sprays
phenolics are organic compounds similar to phenol but without the bad
smell and irritancy of phenol
the active ingredient in Lysol is ortho-phenylphenol
it is derived from coal tar and is a class of compounds called cresols
Lysol is also 79% alcohol, enhancing the effectiveness of the phenylphenol
another cresol is hexachlorophene, used as a surgical scrub and the
active ingredient in pHisoHex
hexachlorophene is also used in toothpaste, deodorants and soaps
it is effective against Staphylococci and Streptococci common skin pathogens
phenolics are good disinfectants because they are stable and persistent
*Listerine is another common antiseptic and was first concocted by
Lister in 1879
Warner-Lambert picked it up in 1881 and today it is a $400 million per
year product
Listerine is a mixture of thymol, eucalyptol, menthol and methyl
salicylate: natural products ("essential oils") that include phenolics
Listerine also contains over 25% alcohol which enhances its effectiveness
phenolics act by disrupting cell membranes, inactivating enzymes, and
denaturing proteins*

So even with the alcohol, I might not need to dilute it because it
will evaporate quickly anyway? I have a prospective victim in mind. I
mean, if a rose is going into the green can if doesn't conquer PM, and
it gets PM, what do I have to lose? There's a white patch of the stuff
on one cane of a rose that suffered last fall. I tried rubbing it off,
I tried milk and water, I tried neem oil, and now I may just give a a
dab of Listerine that is under a sink somewhere. I also have Eco Erase,
but hell, it's only March and it seems to early to pull out all the
stops.

Mature size of these roses
 

JimS. wrote:
Radika,

Would the alcohol harm the vegetation? Seems like it might burn the leaves.
But what do I know? I'm no chemist....

Very good question, Jim. I do not know the answer.

However, I have seen instructions given in various places ranging sll
the way from a 50% (diluted with water) Listerine to this rather strange
formula of "Black spot, aphids and other bugs: A pretty "universal"
spray for just about everything. To water in a 2 gallon sprayer add: 2
tsp. baby shampoo 3 tsp. Listerine (store brand is fine) 1 tsp. ammonia
Shake it up good and spray away."

I do not know what the right procedure is, but I am saying that the
contents of Listerine being phenolic, may very well prove to be
fungicidal or fungistatic. Of course, I have no proof for this, but just
the observation that this adds up.

One ought to try it on a small part of the rose to be sure, of course.
My guess is that 25% alcohol will no more hurt the plant tissue
(especially with its cellulose cell wall that is less permeable than our
cells with only glycogen membrane) than it hurts our tissues. But what
do I know! I am not a plant biochemist, no sir.

--
Radika
California
USDA 9 / Sunset 15

Mature size of these roses
 

Cass wrote:
Radika Kesavan wrote:
...
Listerine is a mixture of thymol, eucalyptol, menthol and methyl
salicylate: natural products ("essential oils") that include phenolics
Listerine also contains over 25% alcohol which enhances its effectiveness
phenolics act by disrupting cell membranes, inactivating enzymes, and
denaturing proteins*

So even with the alcohol, I might not need to dilute it because it
will evaporate quickly anyway? I have a prospective victim in mind. I
mean, if a rose is going into the green can if doesn't conquer PM, and
it gets PM, what do I have to lose? There's a white patch of the stuff
on one cane of a rose that suffered last fall. I tried rubbing it off,
I tried milk and water, I tried neem oil, and now I may just give a a
dab of Listerine that is under a sink somewhere. I also have Eco Erase,
but hell, it's only March and it seems to early to pull out all the
stops.

Cass, like I said to Jim, I don't think that 25% alcohol would cause
plant tissue any more harm than it does to our tissues. I do not know
for sure, of course. Also, though alcohol would evaporate reasonably
fast when it is neat 100% alcohol, when mixed with water it would
evaporate much more slowly (a phenomenon called hydrogen bonding would
be to blame, I think). So, you cannot bank on that. I would suggest
trying it on a small healthy part of the plant and waiting for a day or
two to make sure it does not hurt the plant before proceeding with caution.

--
Radika
California
USDA 9 / Sunset 15

Mature size of these roses
 

"Allegra" wrote
Hello Julie,

You are going to love Darlow's Enigma, he is really a sweetheart
of a rose. It has such an elegant stand, I find it hard to explain.
Demure but sexy if you please. I guess you could say I truly,
truly like (!) this rose.

For some reason, I think you like this rose. g Do you grow yours as
a climber or a freestanding shrub?


Yesterday I went out in the soft rain and planted Rouge Royale
and Taboo, the one rose that was eaten by cane borers probably
for a year before we bought the house. It put out a single solitary
bloom of the darkest red I have ever seen and it was breathtaking.
So, this year we found one of the new own root JP and we got it
at Birds' the nursery JD -who by the way has dropped off the face
of the earth as far as I can tell (are you listening JD?)- turned us on
last year. We also got E.Veyrat Hermanos in a big, and I do mean
big pot by the fountain hoping the two clematis that go over the
arch will eventually shake hands with it and Champney's Pink
across the arch.


I "need" some red roses. This year almost all the new ones are white
and fragrant. I think I should add some reds to brighten up the
gardens. Perhaps next year I will buy all red roses. Ashdown won't
have Francis Dubreuil ready in time to add to my order. And I didn't
see any others that really caught my attention on their site.
Your fountain, clematis and rose combination sounds lovely. I had to
look up E. Veyrat Hermanos, AKA Pillar of Gold, described as pink
blend blooms. With that AKA I would have assumed it would be yellow!


Here still wet, gray and cold. But a some cuttings have rooted
gloriously, and in spite of an unhealthy dose of powdery mildew
all over Zephirine - the milk treatment didn't do a thing I am afraid
no matter what ratio, 5 to 1, 4 to 1, 3 to 1 , back to the old spray -
the rest is breaking dormancy with a whole heck of a lot basals,
and if Spring doesn't come here soon...

No PM here, but I have noticed some blackspotted leaves already.
We've had a very wet winter and spring, which has caused the roses to
leaf out beautifully, but I expect we'll pay for it later with lots of
BS. I have started spraying, promising myself I would be more
dilligent this year than last. The poor roses paid the price for my
indifference last year.


I never thought I would say this, but at times like this California
even sounds like a nice place to move in order to grow roses...
just kidding! ;)


g

How are your roses doing?

Other than the aforementioned BS they are looking great! It's hard to
believe how quickly they all leafed out and began blooming. The
climbing Souvenir de la Malmaison has 20 or more open blooms and twice
that many buds. White Maman Cochet, covering one half the arbor, is
about to explode with blooms. This is year three for both of these
roses and the saying, "The thrid year they leap," is proving to be
correct.
Other roses of interest: Mrs. Dudley Cross, moved late last year to a
roomier location, has several blooms again. After being cut back so
severely, I'm very happy with her comeback. Rose de Rescht and
Jacques Cartier have escaped the shovel again this spring. But I
swear, the minute they loose all their leaves in sprite of regular
spraying, they are out of here!
My mystery rose is putting on new growth. The past two years I've
gotten new canes, this year I'm seeing laterals. Maybe another
climber, I only hope to see at least one bloom this year. I have
little patience, especially for unknown roses.
I'm very happy I can spend some time with my roses. Spring is such a
wonderful time, so full of promise. In this time of stress, there's
nothing like a few hours spent in the garden.

Julie

Mature size of these roses
 

Bob Bauer wrote:

What about Gruss an Auchen?

Gruss an Aachen will grow to be about 3 feet tall and 3 feet wide.
Many people consider this rose to be the world's first floribunda. It
is fragrant, blooms a lot and is very beautiful.

Everyone who is a rose lover should grow this one.


I've heard great things about GaA for years, seems it's on many
peoples favorites list. But when I asked Diann Giles about buying
this one, she said they didn't carry it because she had never seen a
healthy, thriving plant. I wonder if it just doesn't like our
weather? I guess I'm about to find out.


Julie

Mature size of these roses
 

Julie said:

I've heard great things about GaA for years, seems it's on many
peoples favorites list. But when I asked Diann Giles about buying
this one, she said they didn't carry it because she had never seen a
healthy, thriving plant. I wonder if it just doesn't like our
weather? I guess I'm about to find out.

Interesting. There are SO many roses that are climate dependent. For
example the famous rose 'Queen Elizabeth' , a rose so great and unique
that they invented a new category of roses because of its
characteristics (the 'Grandiflora'), does horribly awful in my
climate of cold winters and hot dry summers. I have talked to many
members of the Utah rose society, and they all say the same thing: QE
does not do well here.

This plant that is supposed to be tall and floriferous, in my yard is
2 feet tall and 18 inches wide and puts out maybe 5 blooms a year. Go
figure.

Bob Bauer
Zone 6 in Salt Lake City
http://www.rose-roses.com/