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problem with my roses-need help
My rose plants have not been producing good roses this year. It looks like
they are brownish on the outside. Before they bloom, while they bloom, they look 20% dead. One store sold me generic disease control, one store said it looks fine, and another store said although he couldn't find any thrips, it had all the symptoms. I'd tend to believe the last person, because he sold me on a product his store didn't carry and sent me to another store. He had a pebble based systemic solution that would take long to take effect and suggest I go to another store and buy the liquid Ortho systemic. I have a picture of one of the roses at http://home.earthlink.net/~cenews/garden/ I can email other pictures if anyone would like to take a closer look. I had a hard time getting the first on the web site. I have eight different rose plants in my front yard and all have hte same symptons. I live in the San Fernando Valley Foothills in L.A. Thanks. |
problem with my roses-need help
Me wrote:
My rose plants have not been producing good roses this year. It looks like they are brownish on the outside.... Before they bloom, while they bloom, they look 20% dead. store and buy the liquid Ortho systemic. Careful. I've never used that one, but some sprays will really stain your flowers. Maybe someone will post their knowledge about that product. I have a picture of one of the roses at http://home.earthlink.net/~cenews/garden/ Doesn't look like thrips to me. Have you cut one, taken it inside, and shaken it over a piece of white paper? If it's thrips, you see dozen and dozens of little tiny flecks. Your foliage looks fabulous. Is there any chance you have rain damage from the untimely storm last week? -- -=- Cass Zone 9 San Francisco Bay Area http://home.attbi.com/~cassbernstein/index.html |
problem with my roses-need help
Me wrote:
My rose plants have not been producing good roses this year. It looks like they are brownish on the outside. Before they bloom, while they bloom, they look 20% dead. I am not quite sure what you mean by that last sentence. One store sold me generic disease control, one store said it looks fine, and another store said although he couldn't find any thrips, it had all the symptoms. I'd tend to believe the last person, because he sold me on a product his store didn't carry and sent me to another store. He had a pebble based systemic solution that would take long to take effect and suggest I go to another store and buy the liquid Ortho systemic. I have a picture of one of the roses at http://home.earthlink.net/~cenews/garden/ I can email other pictures if anyone would like to take a closer look. I had a hard time getting the first on the web site. To my eyes, it looks like rain damage, even as Cass had suggested that you consider the possibility. As she says your foliage looks very healthy, at least in that picture. I have eight different rose plants in my front yard and all have hte same symptons. I live in the San Fernando Valley Foothills in L.A. You might consider talking to one of your local ARS Consulting Rosarians. They have no commercial affiliations when they help folks with their rose questions, are well-trained and do all of this as a service to community, charging no fees. Here is a link: http://www.geocities.com/sfvroses/te...rosarians.html In fact, one of the CRs for your area, Jim Delahanty, is normally a frequent poster on this forum though we have not heard from him in a while here, must be a little too busy with Spring Rose Shows or something. -- Radika California USDA 9 / Sunset 15 |
problem with my roses-need help
Me wrote:
My rose plants have not been producing good roses this year. It looks like they are brownish on the outside. My roses look like this when they had a bacterial infection called Botrytis. I had more of it when I did not spray for fungus. Since I began using the systemic Orthenex recommended to you, I have not had any botrytis. I cannot explain why, since Orthenex is a combination insecticide and fungicide. Some say that there is a higher incidence of Botrytis in roses that are not protected from insects and fungal disease, because the injuries caused by both help facilitate the bactierial infection. If you use Orthenex, keep your spray on a coarse setting (not fine, which is too easy to breathe) and wear long sleeves and gloves and eye protection. A respirator cannot hurt--but the main danger of this stuff is getting it in your eyes or on your skin in its concentrated form. I use Latex gloves bought at the grocery store for 10 for a dollar and standard garden goggles. Orthenex works very well here in swampy NC. |
problem with my roses-need help
The geometry of the photo suggests Cass and Radika are correct (as
always - no surprise there at all) and that damage from rain or other liquid is the prime suspect. The foliage looks remarkable. The buds on each side of the open bloom show no ill effects. The photo is close up and enlarged enough so that aphids or other parasites would likely be visible, and not a single creepy crawly is anywhere to be seen. In short, except for the brown spots on the open bloom, this appears to be an exceptionally healthy plant. Before you inflict Agent Orange upon your garden, try a little mental origami. Pretend you're watching time-lapse photography in reverse so that the rose bloom closes back up into the original bud. (ie - imagine it "un-blooming".) Seems to me that virtually all of the bad spots would end up overlapped in only one or two places in the closed bud. In other words, when the bloom was in the just-about-to-pop stage, just like the buds in the photo on the left and right of the bloom, a drop or two of liquid got into the "cracks" in the vulnerable bud, soaking through many layers of petals and staining, burning, rotting, or otherwise damaging them. Then when the bud opened, you got the paper snowflake effect, with the bad spots scattered all around the bloom as the stained petals separated. The rest of the plant is quite impressive, and I'd be terrified to use chemical agents on such magnificent foliage. The side effects would likely outweigh the benefits. The plant itself seems to be in no state of peril whatsoever. Unless the photo is misleading or this plant is not indicative of the rest of your roses, I'd just wait and watch the next wave of blooms and see if they do any better. On Sat, 10 May 2003 22:03:36 GMT, "Me" wrote: My rose plants have not been producing good roses this year. It looks like they are brownish on the outside. Before they bloom, while they bloom, they look 20% dead. One store sold me generic disease control, one store said it looks fine, and another store said although he couldn't find any thrips, it had all the symptoms. I'd tend to believe the last person, because he sold me on a product his store didn't carry and sent me to another store. He had a pebble based systemic solution that would take long to take effect and suggest I go to another store and buy the liquid Ortho systemic. I have a picture of one of the roses at http://home.earthlink.net/~cenews/garden/ I can email other pictures if anyone would like to take a closer look. I had a hard time getting the first on the web site. I have eight different rose plants in my front yard and all have hte same symptons. I live in the San Fernando Valley Foothills in L.A. Thanks. |
problem with my roses-need help
Thanks for all your comments.
It seems like I have had this problem for the last six weeks, probably since March. We've had rain about every three weeks so maybe that's why it's show up all year. I didn't realize water would do that damage. I did try shaking over a white piece of paper and I didn't see any bugs. A couple of my plants do show a little bit of yellow in them, what is that a sign of? One thing I didn't mention is I use the rose fertilizer in a blue container every six weeks. I believe it's called Bayer? It comes in pebble form, not liquid. Thanks again. |
problem with my roses-need help
torgo wrote:
The geometry of the photo suggests Cass and Radika are correct (as always - no surprise there at all) and that damage from rain or other liquid is the prime suspect. Torgo, you are absolutely right about Cass, she is a gem; as for me, it is a great overstatement (just ask my husband who is laughing at me for wanting a Garden Claw for cultivation - heheheh - but he is indulgent and I have a brand new one today!), but I am grateful for your kindness in saying so. Thanks! I really do think it is very likely water damage in Me's rose. I enjoyed reading your mental origami and your description of how water damage happens starting with an unfurled bud. We have had more untimely rain in California, even in SoCal, this spring than we can remember from the last seven years running. OTOH, the first wild fire has already started in New Mexico, so we should not compalin about the rain. It is bright and sunny now, but sigh ... more rain is on its way later in the week. I am just going to have to make hay while the sun shines and go cultivate the soil where I got rid of a whole lot of St. John's Wort (a pestilential but gorgeous plant, never ever plant it unless you have some acreage to cover) around my beautiful Susan Louise (a hybrid Rosa gigantea). The husband can laugh all he wants, but when one does not have the muscle mass to use a spade for cultivating the soil, a smaller person needs better tools. The Garden Claw Gold works so beautifully that I think I am going to be thankful for its purchase for a long time to come! -- Radika California USDA 9 / Sunset 15 |
problem with my roses-need help
I was fishing through my roses and stuck my fingers through a rose that's
just blooming. It looks like there are ants in the rose, or something small and black. Are those ants, what do "thrips" look like? I noticed them in two of my yellow roses. Thanks, Craig |
problem with my roses-need help
Me wrote:
I was fishing through my roses and stuck my fingers through a rose that's just blooming. It looks like there are ants in the rose, or something small and black. Are those ants, what do "thrips" look like? I noticed them in two of my yellow roses. Craig, Here are some pictures of thrips and thrip damage: http://members.tripod.com/sactorose/...owerthrips.jpg http://members.tripod.com/sactorose/...thrips-dam.jpg http://members.tripod.com/sactorose/...hrips-dam2.jpg http://members.tripod.com/sactorose/...hrips-dam4.jpg http://members.tripod.com/sactorose/...hrips-dam5.jpg And this is an excellent site for all manner of rose diseases and pests, set up by Dr. Baldo Villegas, an entomologist who lives and works in Sacramento: http://members.tripod.com/sactorose/irosepests.html Remember that Cass, Torgo and myself were all very impressed with the health of the foliage in that picture whose link you posted. I doubt very much that you have thrip damage on that rose, and also, it is a bit too early for that - it is more likely when the temperatures get get quite high. -- Radika California USDA 9 / Sunset 15 |
problem with my roses-need help
Me wrote:
A couple of my plants do show a little bit of yellow in them, what is that a sign of? Roses, like every plant, even evergreen conifers, will replace their foliage, and it doesn't just happen in the winter. As your rose continues to grow, you will notice that the leaves closest to the bud eye that is growing will age before all the rest of the foliage. These leaves (usually just one bottom 5 or 7-leaf leaflet), as they age, are the first to contract fungus - blackspot and rust especially - presumably because they are senescent (getting old). *This pattern is normal.* Don't believe that they need more fertilizer or more chemical sprays or more water just because they don't look perfect every minute. So study your plant more closely. If the yellowing foliage is close to a V in the growth of your rose and if it is just one leaflet, it is a normal process. Just rub or snip off the dead or dying stuff and remove it from your garden. A different problem is spider mites, and Baldo's site has good pictures of what spider mite damage looks like. |
problem with my roses-need help
On Sun, 11 May 2003 15:06:56 GMT, "Me"
wrote: Thanks for all your comments. It seems like I have had this problem for the last six weeks, probably since March. We've had rain about every three weeks so maybe that's why it's show up all year. Can you please clarify the statement above? Are you saying that it has only rained once in three weeks or that it has rained every day for three weeks? If the former, I wonder how anyone could call what you have "water damage." |
problem with my roses-need help
On Sun, 11 May 2003 07:03:15 GMT, torgo
wrote: The geometry of the photo suggests Cass and Radika are correct (as always - no surprise there at all) and that damage from rain or other liquid is the prime suspect. Do you know what botrytis looks like, torgo? In short, except for the brown spots on the open bloom, this appears to be an exceptionally healthy plant. This is what botrytis looks like. Before you inflict Agent Orange upon your garden, try a little mental origami. Pretend you're watching time-lapse photography in reverse so that the rose bloom closes back up into the original bud. (ie - imagine it "un-blooming".) Seems to me that virtually all of the bad spots would end up overlapped in only one or two places in the closed bud. In other words, when the bloom was in the just-about-to-pop stage, just like the buds in the photo on the left and right of the bloom, a drop or two of liquid got into the "cracks" in the vulnerable bud, soaking through many layers of petals and staining, burning, rotting, or otherwise damaging them. Then when the bud opened, you got the paper snowflake effect, with the bad spots scattered all around the bloom as the stained petals separated. Quite creative, and a nicely turned phrase i.e. "mental origami." However--roses LOVE water, on their foliage, blooms, canes, roots. I wash mine down twice a week, buds and all. I SPRAY every ten days with Orthenex, and I have never, ever seen what this poster's photos displays except in the few instances when I have had botrytis on my roses. If your theory were plausible, all my roses would look like that. The rest of the plant is quite impressive, and I'd be terrified to use chemical agents on such magnificent foliage. The side effects would likely outweigh the benefits. This is complete nonsense. My foliage is more beautiful than it ever was before I protected it from chewing and sucking insects and fungal disease with Orthenex. The plant itself seems to be in no state of peril whatsoever. Unless the photo is misleading or this plant is not indicative of the rest of your roses, I'd just wait and watch the next wave of blooms and see if they do any better. While "wait and see" isn't bad advice, it is no fun to have plants that "although they are in no state of peril" produce roses that rot on the stems before opening. If anyone knows of anything that DOES cause a rose to rot on the stem before it opens, do let us know. This is precisely what the poster said is happening. On Sat, 10 May 2003 22:03:36 GMT, "Me" wrote: My rose plants have not been producing good roses this year. It looks like they are brownish on the outside. Before they bloom, while they bloom, they look 20% dead. One store sold me generic disease control, one store said it looks fine, and another store said although he couldn't find any thrips, it had all the symptoms. I'd tend to believe the last person, because he sold me on a product his store didn't carry and sent me to another store. He had a pebble based systemic solution that would take long to take effect and suggest I go to another store and buy the liquid Ortho systemic. I have a picture of one of the roses at http://home.earthlink.net/~cenews/garden/ I can email other pictures if anyone would like to take a closer look. I had a hard time getting the first on the web site. I have eight different rose plants in my front yard and all have hte same symptons. I live in the San Fernando Valley Foothills in L.A. Thanks. |
problem with my roses-need help
Thanks for the photos. I believe I've seen the western flower thrips in my
roses. I'm going to check my neighbors roses and wait for another crop of blooms (w/o rain) before using any chemicals. Thanks for the help. |
problem with my roses-need help
Me wrote:
Thanks for the photos. I believe I've seen the western flower thrips in my roses. I'm going to check my neighbors roses and wait for another crop of blooms (w/o rain) before using any chemicals. Thanks for the help. It is a pleasure, Craig. Wise approach. As for botrytis, that is more of a possibility here in the wet Northern California than in your neck of the woods, I would imagine. If you are interested, Baldo has pictures of Botrytis also at his website. Do check them out - your blossom did not show the characteristic spotted pattern to my eyes, but you ought to check this out by oyur own eyes, I think. -- Radika California USDA 9 / Sunset 15 |
problem with my roses-need help
Yo - getting a little harsh there, weren't you, Shiva?
Do you know what botrytis looks like, torgo? Well, gee, do you know what a vegetable garden looks like, Shiva? Your info is incorrect. Botrytis is NOT a bacterial infection. It's a fungus. And it's certainly not some mysterious rare ailment known only to experienced rosarians. If you grow strawberries, you'll have it as sure as the morning dew. Tomato plants and string beans are vulnerable to it as well. And if you ever venture to try your hand at scuppernongs, it could ruin your crop in a single weekend. You're not exactly presenting a news flash here. Yes, I've seen the effects of Botrytis cinerea in many forms, most of which are quite disgusting. Since he's had these problems the entire bloom season thus far, why has he seen no symptoms of botrytis other than rose blooms that look "20% dead"? Where are the fuzzy lesions, the blackened growths in the rotting areas, or the grayish mold? Why hasn't there been accelerated aging and rotting of the blooms? Why have the spot symptoms not spread to the rest of the plant by now? And why haven't anything other than the rose bushes been affected? Botrytis will hit anything from bulbs to ground cover plants to fruits and vegetables to cacti. (It's not proud. Or tired.) Yet all he's getting are some spots, only on the roses, only on the blooms, and based on the photo, apparently only on the outermost parts of the petals. The rest of the plant is quite impressive, and I'd be terrified to use chemical agents on such magnificent foliage. The side effects would likely outweigh the benefits. This is complete nonsense. My foliage is more beautiful than it ever was before I protected it from chewing and sucking insects and fungal disease with Orthenex. Good for you. But you call it nonsense to say the bad effects of unnecessary use of hazardous chemicals could outweigh the good??? You didn't even ask him if he had so much as a sage plant before you recommended spraying a product whose runoff alone could render nearby fruits or herbs inedible. Nonsense, my ass. Put that decaf stuff away and switch to a real brand. Since you're so adamant botrytis is the cause of the problem, why on earth are you recommending he use Orthenex? That would take care of thrips, but for botrytis you might just as well tell him to use Mill's Magic Mix. Quite creative, and a nicely turned phrase i.e. "mental origami." However--roses LOVE water, on their foliage, blooms, canes, roots. I wash mine down twice a week, buds and all. I SPRAY every ten days with Creativity has nothing to do with it. The only symptoms are those spots, and he indicates that the spots are there as soon as the bloom opens. So whatever the culprit, be it acid rain, botrytis spores, thrips, or laser beams from outer space, it's happening specifically within the bud, either before the bud opens or as it is in the process of opening. Either way, the petals are densely packed together at that stage, which suggests that many petals become affected at once, as opposed to each petal getting its own spot in separate incidents. There are no holes in the petals, just the stain/burn spots, pointing to a liquid medium as the likely method of contamination. Put it together, and damage from rain is a suspect. Since you've completely dismissed the possibility that saturation of tender tissues by liquid with pH factor significantly below 7.0 accompanied by exposure to UV radiation can cause discoloration, get a sheet of onion skin (tracing paper) and a cotton swab, put some lemon juice in a Dixie cup, and ask a nine year old to show you the invisible ink trick. I'll leave your "roses love water" bit alone, other than to point out that if botrytis is present, washing the plant down like that would be an extremely unwise move. Botrytis is one possibility, but you shouldn't be giving such an acidic response to any alternative hypotheses. |
problem with my roses-need help
saki wrote:
(Shiva) wrote in news:43f260d08ead66e6bfc89a8024e4d344@TeraNews: If I read the original poster's article correctly (and I apologize if I've missed something) there was no overt mention of blossoms that "rot on the stem", and the photo doesn't entirely illustrate this scenario. In truth, the original poster's language in the post was rather ambiguous. Here is what he said: "My rose plants have not been producing good roses this year. It looks like they are brownish on the outside." Does this mean on the outside of the stems, blooms, or both? The photo showed only brown on the bloom, to my eye. Exactly how botrytis starts on my roses. "Before they bloom, while they bloom, they look 20% dead." Again, I took this to mean that the blooms look dead, not the stems. But apparently botyrtis can cause both? My orthenex nips it in the bud, so I have no idea what an advanced case looks like. "One store sold me generic disease control, one store said it looks fine, and another store said although he couldn't find any thrips, it had all the symptoms." I have seen exactly two things cause the sort of browning on blossoms that "Me"'s roses showed in the photo he posted: thrips and botrytis. NEVER "water damage." In my garden where everything, but EVERYTHING gets lots of overhead watering plus plenty of storms and lots of high and low temps. I have a picture of one of the roses at http://home.earthlink.net/~cenews/garden/ He/she said "they are brownish on the outside" and look "20% dead", which I take to mean that the damage is partial. The photo seems to illustrate this. Yes, it is on the blooms. There are several reasons why this may have occurred. One, as has been mentioned, is botrytis (which, full-blown, isn't very pretty at all, and absolutely requires spraying with fungicide); another is thrips. Thrips are easy to see. I can see them crawling on the bloom without even shaking them over paper. I do not have perfect vision, either. "Me" said he had someone at a "store" look for thrips, and that he found none. Two other situations to consider are excessive heat (especially when coupled with drought, if present) and water/rain damage. It does get hot here. For example, it was in the 90s yesterday. In July and August it will stay there, and reach the 100s on occasion. While most roses, as you point out, like a bit of a spray-off with the hose (which also helps control pests and diseases), a prolonged rain during the critical blossom-forming period will, for a few select varieties (usually light-colored ones), result in brownish patches on unopened blossoms I take your word for this, though I have never seen it. or outright "balling", where the blossom refuses to open and sits tempestuously on the stem until it dries out. Two of my roses did this: the ugly Peace and the uglier Amelia Earhart-- two roses with many petals. They did not have time to rot since I cut them off. We've had more than our normal share of rain this spring in Southern California (I noted that the poster who asked about this problem is also located here), in particular a full-day rainstorm a couple or three weekends ago. Your best point yet! There may indeed be conditions in N. California and elsewhere I have never seen. While it is hard to fathom that water on rose petals may be different there, I must concede that I really do not know. Whatever the poster decides, I'd like to chime in with my appreciation for the foliage! Me too. Absolutely magnificent. The rose itself must have naturally dark green foliage, my very favorite. ---- |
problem with my roses-need help
torgo wrote:
Yo - getting a little harsh there, weren't you, Shiva? I might be, or you might be getting a little thin-skinned, eh Torgo? In any case it is probably wisest to confine ourselves to the discussion of roses. Do you know what botrytis looks like, torgo? Well, gee, do you know what a vegetable garden looks like, Shiva? Yes. Shall I take this as a "yes, I have seen botrytis, Shiva?" Your info is incorrect. Botrytis is NOT a bacterial infection. It's a fungus. You're absolutely right. I was confused because I saw Cass post that canker is a bacterial infection, and thought I remembered her posting that botrytis is a bacterial infection. I have always been confused about the nature of canker. This explains why my regular use of fungicide keeps this hideous crap out of my garden. You're not exactly presenting a news flash here. Yes, I've seen the effects of Botrytis cinerea in many forms, most of which are quite disgusting. So says another poster who does not protect his or her roses from fungal disease by spraying with a fungicide. I would not know, because all I have ever seen was the telltake bloom rotting on the stem. After that, my fungicide apparently kicks in. I rather like that. Since he's had these problems the entire bloom season thus far, why has he seen no symptoms of botrytis other than rose blooms that look "20% dead"? Your first sound point. Where are the fuzzy lesions, the blackened growths in the rotting areas, or the grayish mold? Why hasn't there been accelerated aging and rotting of the blooms? Why have the spot symptoms not spread to the rest of the plant by now? And why haven't anything other than the rose bushes been affected? I don't know, but you are rapidly becoming the Poster Boy for Preventive Fungicide Spraying! Good for you. But you call it nonsense to say the bad effects of unnecessary use of hazardous chemicals could outweigh the good??? I call it nonsense for someone who has obviously not ever observed a regular, effective fungicide program to suggest it may harm beautiful foliage, or make it unsightly. And, well, it is nonsense. You didn't even ask him if he had so much as a sage plant before you recommended spraying a product whose runoff alone could render nearby fruits or herbs inedible. Nonsense, my ass. I'm sorry. I do not belong to the "we must protect every idiot from himself" club. You know, the one that is responsible for the "do not point at face while opening" label on the champagne bottle? I assume anyone bright enough to use a computer will be functional enough to read the label on any product he or she is applying to his roses. Put that decaf stuff away and switch to a real brand. Um, right. Whatever that means. Since you're so adamant botrytis is the cause of the problem, why on earth are you recommending he use Orthenex? That would take care of thrips, but for botrytis you might just as well tell him to use Mill's Magic Mix. Orthenex is a combination fungicide and insecticide. It is all I use to protect my roses from fungus. I have used it every ten days since late March, and do not have a spot of any kind of disease on my roses, or spider mites, or other insect pests. I'll leave your "roses love water" bit alone, other than to point out that if botrytis is present, washing the plant down like that would be an extremely unwise move. Not in the least if one follows a regular fungicide spraying program. Botrytis is one possibility, but you shouldn't be giving such an acidic response to any alternative hypotheses. Try to remember that it is just a debate. I have no emotional or personal stake in anything that is said here. The real point is that the rose I saw in the photo looks exactly like the rose that the NC Ag. Extension people tested and found to be botrytis. Therefore I do think the poster should consider it, and not be led to believe it is "water damage." |
problem with my roses-need help
Shiva wrote:
torgo wrote: Botrytis is NOT a bacterial infection. It's a fungus. You're absolutely right. I was confused because I saw Cass post that canker is a bacterial infection, and thought I remembered her posting that botrytis is a bacterial infection. I have always been confused about the nature of canker. This explains why my regular use of fungicide keeps this hideous crap out of my garden. Sadly, I know entirely too much about botrytis. When it just affects the aging bloom, it often looks like this: http://home.earthlink.net/~cbernstei...s/botrytis.jpg On a light pink rose, I doubt that someone would see browning petals and not see any of the polka dots that are so characteristic of the scourge. That's certainly my experience, at least. On a dark red rose it can be hard to see spots before the petals brown, but on a lighter colored rose, those polka dots are visible long before the rot sets in. Yes, I've seen the effects of Botrytis cinerea in many forms, most of which are quite disgusting. So says another poster who does not protect his or her roses from fungal disease by spraying with a fungicide. I would not know, because all I have ever seen was the telltake bloom rotting on the stem. After that, my fungicide apparently kicks in. I rather like that. I'm fairly certain that not all petal rot is caused by botrytis. Some just can't take untimely rain, gather the rain in the bloom, and self-destruct from the inside out, as described by Saki. |
problem with my roses-need help
On Mon, 12 May 2003 15:55:32 -0400 (EDT), "Shiva"
wrote: torgo wrote: Yo - getting a little harsh there, weren't you, Shiva? I might be, or you might be getting a little thin-skinned, eh Torgo? Perhaps - but Cass suggested rain damage, and you said nothing. Radika also said she thinks it's probably rain damage, and again you say nothing. Then I say I agree, I think it's probably rain damage too, and you open fire at me with both barrels and with quite offensive tones. Now another poster pipes in that it could easily be rain damage, and you still choose to come at me with heavy doses of condescension. So regardless of how thick my skin is, how my day has gone, how much lithium I have in my blood stream, and how many countless times my parole officer has told me to turn the other cheek, you're still bending over backwards to stroke my fur the wrong way. Yes. Shall I take this as a "yes, I have seen botrytis, Shiva?" Take it as a "yes, I have seen botrytis and its effects on dozens of different plants from artichokes to zucchini". You could easily throw in "Yes, I've battled it before - been there, done that", and perhaps even "Take a hint - I'm more experienced with it than you're giving me credit for here, and considering you didn't even realize it was a fungus, I probably know more about it than you do yourself, so knock off the patronizing attitude." I call it nonsense for someone who has obviously not ever observed a regular, effective fungicide program to suggest it may harm beautiful foliage, or make it unsightly. And, well, it is nonsense. I have indeed observed such a program. I use fungicides myself for most of my established roses. And thanks again for the continued use of such condescending responses. If those were my roses, I wouldn't alter the treatment program until I knew exactly what I was fighting. His foliage is incredible as is, so the upside of any different course of action would be minimal. There's simply no reason to change a single thing without knowing exactly what or why. I did not mention Orthenex by name, nor did I say that those ill effects would specifically make the rose foliage unsightly. Try not to think in such narrow, rose-only terms. All I said was that the bad effects of strong chemicals could outweigh the good. And that's quite true, even if the statement doesn't get the Shiva Seal Of Approval. Orthenex is a combination fungicide and insecticide. It is all I use to protect my roses from fungus. I have used it every ten days since late March, and do not have a spot of any kind of disease on my roses, or spider mites, or other insect pests. Hey, that's great. Congratulations on your healthy foliage. It's a great systemic insecticide, and a good fungicide for preventing black spot, rust, and other mild fungi. But neither version (the aerosol and concentrate have differing formulas) is indicated for Botrytis cinerea (but you knew that already, having read the label, right?) and neither is sufficient for a real botrytis outbreak. A small presence of spores in relaltively warm, dry weather would succumb to Orthonex, but you'd get similar results under such conditions from a control group sprayed with a non water based placebo, or for that matter not treated at all. Even the manufacturer doesn't recommend it for use against stronger fungi like Botrytis cinerea. (Ortho's own advice = Go directly to Daconil. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200.) So I still question your prescription of Orthonex as the cure for your diagnosis of botrytis. It is an illogical combination. Try to remember that it is just a debate. I have no emotional or personal No, it isn't a debate. The poster presented a problem. Several of us responded with our suggestions of possible causes. For whatever reason, you then chose to flame my response - and only mine, despite the fact that several others had already stated the same opinion - hammering it from top to bottom in offensive fashion. I didn't think such behavior existed here, and I certainly wouldn't have expected it from you. |
problem with my roses-need help
torgo wrote:
Perhaps - but Cass suggested rain damage, and you said nothing. Radika also said she thinks it's probably rain damage, and again you say nothing. Then I say I agree, I think it's probably rain damage too, and you open fire at me with both barrels and with quite offensive tones. Okay. Here is how personal my comments really a I probably read your post last, because it was the latest post on the topic. Therefore I addressed my comments to you. And an even more personal disclosu there are some posters I do not read at all. I do not killfile, I just know them and do not wish to read them, so I don't. Nothing personal, just my taste. Now another poster pipes in that it could easily be rain damage, and you still choose to come at me with heavy doses of condescension. Torgo. I will not apologize for my tone. I will, however, apologize for not being willing to apologize. Why don't you just killfile me now? So regardless of how thick my skin is, how my day has gone, how much lithium I have in my blood stream, and how many countless times my parole officer has told me to turn the other cheek, you're still bending over backwards to stroke my fur the wrong way. No. You give yourself way too much credit. It is not personal. At all. Try to remember that it is just a debate. I have no emotional or personal No, it isn't a debate. The poster presented a problem. Several of us responded with our suggestions of possible causes. This is a discussion forum. We debate the possible causes for certain effects. That is part of what discussion is. For whatever reason, you then chose to flame my response - and only mine, despite the fact that several others had already stated the same opinion - hammering it from top to bottom in offensive fashion. Poor torgo. I am being condescending now. A flame? Really? I didn't think such behavior existed here, and I certainly wouldn't have expected it from you. You're new here, aren't you? |
problem with my roses-need help
On Tue, 13 May 2003 00:15:10 -0400 (EDT), "Shiva"
wrote: Okay. Here is how personal my comments really a I probably read your post last, because it was the latest post on the topic. Therefore I addressed my comments to you. And an even more personal disclosu there are some posters I do not read at all. I do not killfile, I just know them and do not wish to read them, so I don't. Nothing personal, just my taste. Well then, I'll consider it a compliment that you deem my posts worthy of reading. Case closed. |
problem with my roses-need help
"torgo" wrote in message ... On Tue, 13 May 2003 00:15:10 -0400 (EDT), "Shiva" wrote: Okay. Here is how personal my comments really a I probably read your post last, because it was the latest post on the topic. Therefore I addressed my comments to you. And an even more personal disclosu there are some posters I do not read at all. I do not killfile, I just know them and do not wish to read them, so I don't. Nothing personal, just my taste. Well then, I'll consider it a compliment that you deem my posts worthy of reading. Case closed. Good answer! You have just been Shiva-tized, and lived to tell about it. The force must be strong in you....you will be a very powerful rose-warrior. The enemies of roses have much to fear.... JimS. Seattle |
problem with my roses-need help
torgo wrote: Well then, I'll consider it a compliment that you deem my
posts worthy of reading. Case closed. What a generous and elegant response. Thank you. Here is a little more of the story--not at all a commentary on you, not at all an excuse for my acid tongue, just a bit more of the Big Picture according to me, with regards to these groups: There are always issues people feel strongly about. The big one with regard to roses is chem/antichem. While the anti-chem folks have some good points (and get to be annoyingly More Organic Than Thou, from my point of view) so do those of us who use fungicides and insecticides. I could list both, and either side could have problems with said list, so why bother? Point is, we are each entitled to our points of view. YOU have never said otherwise. However--in many groups, the seeming Moral Superiority of the anti-chem folks results in a Group Party Line, or at least the uncomfortable silence of those who do use chemical controls. Probably the worst thing about this Organic, Earth-friendly Tyranny is that fully most of the anti-chem folks DO NOT LIVE IN THE SWAMPS. It is oh so easy to slip into one's Birkenstocks in Utah and preach the doctrine of Never Spray Poison on your Roses. Those of us who live in the swamps then are placed in a no-win situation wherein we either go no chem and watch our roses dwindle and die (or, as Saint Zappa once said, "just look ugly for a thousand years) or use our chemicals but surreptitiously, hanging our heads. Join the Yahoo group Grow Roses. Read and learn (some great rosarians there) then let's talk about the Party Line there. It's moderated, too, so you won't get too many "tones," except of course from the moderator, because, well he CAN. I say Bullhockey to this. Everyone of us who drives a car contributes Bad Icky Things to the Environment. And several more compelling arguments, including the fact that in the four years I have been spraying, three honest-to-God religiously, I have NOT seen any decrease in critters, birds, or bugs--except the ones that eat my roses. Earthworms? Got 'em! Bats? You bet! Chipmunks? Check! So where is the wasteland? So I guess there sort of IS a personal part, but it isn't directed at any individual, exactly. The other thing is--and this really is the impersonal part--I really, really like to debate. Argue. Counter. It's fun, but it makes lots of people really mad. Especially when I switch positions just for fun. One last thing, then we can shake on "Case Closed." Personally, I like you. For whatever it's worth. |
problem with my roses-need help
"JimS." wrote in message news:rS%va.826911$L1.240824@sccrnsc02... "torgo" wrote in message ... On Tue, 13 May 2003 00:15:10 -0400 (EDT), "Shiva" wrote: Okay. Here is how personal my comments really a I probably read your post last, because it was the latest post on the topic. Therefore I addressed my comments to you. And an even more personal disclosu there are some posters I do not read at all. I do not killfile, I just know them and do not wish to read them, so I don't. Nothing personal, just my taste. Well then, I'll consider it a compliment that you deem my posts worthy of reading. Case closed. Good answer! You have just been Shiva-tized, and lived to tell about it. The force must be strong in you....you will be a very powerful rose-warrior. The enemies of roses have much to fear.... JimS. Seattle That cracked me up. Heh! Heh! :- Theo |
problem with my roses-need help
saki wrote:
My Climbing Souvenir de la Malmaison does exactly this. It hates the rain---that is, hates it when it comes at a particularly sensitive time in bud formation. We've had more than our normal share of rain this spring in Southern California (I noted that the poster who asked about this problem is also located here), in particular a full-day rainstorm a couple or three weekends ago. My Blue Girls did that this year. We were getting a lot of rain early on and the first flush had brown spots at the edges of the outside petals of the blooms. The rain has slacked off and this flush of blooms are beautiful. I didn't do anything in between just decided to wait it out. The Blue Girls were the only ones that did this, BTW. Susan shsimko at duke dot edu |
problem with my roses-need help
Susan H. Simko wrote:
saki wrote: My Climbing Souvenir de la Malmaison does exactly this. It hates the rain---that is, hates it when it comes at a particularly sensitive time in bud formation. We've had more than our normal share of rain this spring in Southern California (I noted that the poster who asked about this problem is also located here), in particular a full-day rainstorm a couple or three weekends ago. My Blue Girls did that this year. We were getting a lot of rain early on and the first flush had brown spots at the edges of the outside petals of the blooms. The rain has slacked off and this flush of blooms are beautiful. I didn't do anything in between just decided to wait it out. The Blue Girls were the only ones that did this, BTW. Interesting. There are only two roses amongst my 100 plus roses which exhibit this phenomenon of getting damaged by the rain also; one is Blue Ribbon and the other is Sheer Bliss. Just two ... I wonder ... I wonder if it is a function of certain kind of petal weight and colour combination. All the roses the three of us have mentioned so far - SdlM, Blue Girl, Blue Ribbon and Sheer Bliss are heavily fragrant as well as lightish pink to mauve roses, aren't they. Craig, I have forgotten now - that pink rose of yours that showed the damage in the picture that launched this thread (of thousand posts? heheh ...) - what kind is it and is it fragrant? Just curious, thanks. -- Radika California USDA 9 / Sunset 15 |
problem with my roses-need help
"Susan H. Simko" wrote in message ... saki wrote: My Climbing Souvenir de la Malmaison does exactly this. It hates the rain---that is, hates it when it comes at a particularly sensitive time in bud formation. We've had more than our normal share of rain this spring in Southern California (I noted that the poster who asked about this problem is also located here), in particular a full-day rainstorm a couple or three weekends ago. My Blue Girls did that this year. We were getting a lot of rain early on and the first flush had brown spots at the edges of the outside petals of the blooms. The rain has slacked off and this flush of blooms are beautiful. I didn't do anything in between just decided to wait it out. The Blue Girls were the only ones that did this, BTW. Susan My Blue Girl is a regular Typhoid Mary too. She picks up everything. So far, I've managed to keep the blackspot to a minimum, but I figure it's only a matter of time. No blooms yet, so I don't know if they'll be brown yet, but they were last year. JimS. Seattle |
problem with my roses-need help
My Blue Girl is a regular Typhoid Mary too. She picks up everything. So far, I've managed to keep the blackspot to a minimum, but I figure it's only a matter of time. No blooms yet, so I don't know if they'll be brown yet, but they were last year. JimS. Seattle My thrips seems to have a love affair with my Blue Girl.. |
problem with my roses-need help
I never hear anything good about this rose why do people still try to grow it. Just Curious. -- Theo in Zone 5 Kansas City "Ol' Thornfinger" wrote in message ... My Blue Girl is a regular Typhoid Mary too. She picks up everything. So far, I've managed to keep the blackspot to a minimum, but I figure it's only a matter of time. No blooms yet, so I don't know if they'll be brown yet, but they were last year. JimS. Seattle My thrips seems to have a love affair with my Blue Girl.. |
problem with my roses-need help
It is a pain in the ass.
But if you can get a clean bloom and without blackspot, it really is very nice looking. Nice fragrance too. But you're right, if this year is as bad as last, she's toast. JimS. "Theo Asir" wrote in message news:997cdbc0d4f0d5422c6bed22f001b02e@TeraNews... I never hear anything good about this rose why do people still try to grow it. Just Curious. -- Theo in Zone 5 Kansas City "Ol' Thornfinger" wrote in message ... My Blue Girl is a regular Typhoid Mary too. She picks up everything. So far, I've managed to keep the blackspot to a minimum, but I figure it's only a matter of time. No blooms yet, so I don't know if they'll be brown yet, but they were last year. JimS. Seattle My thrips seems to have a love affair with my Blue Girl.. |
problem with my roses-need help
It's gorgeous and I can detect a fragrance : )
Butterfly Theo Asir wrote: I never hear anything good about this rose why do people still try to grow it. Just Curious. -- Theo in Zone 5 Kansas City "Ol' Thornfinger" wrote in message ... My Blue Girl is a regular Typhoid Mary too. She picks up everything. So far, I've managed to keep the blackspot to a minimum, but I figure it's only a matter of time. No blooms yet, so I don't know if they'll be brown yet, but they were last year. JimS. Seattle My thrips seems to have a love affair with my Blue Girl.. |
problem with my roses-need help
I don't know what kind of roses I have unfortunately. And I don't smell any
fragrance. Sorry ... It's on my lost to figure out. |
problem with my roses-need help
My neighbor's is absolutely glorious this year and I'm extremely jealous
and planning on getting one for myself!! The only thing strange is that now she's two rose buses in one due to an injudicious pruning session by an amateur gardner last Fall. Located in Zone 7 Chapel Hill NC Mary Theo Asir wrote: I never hear anything good about this rose why do people still try to grow it. Just Curious. -- Theo in Zone 5 Kansas City "Ol' Thornfinger" wrote in message ... My Blue Girl is a regular Typhoid Mary too. She picks up everything. So far, I've managed to keep the blackspot to a minimum, but I figure it's only a matter of time. No blooms yet, so I don't know if they'll be brown yet, but they were last year. JimS. Seattle My thrips seems to have a love affair with my Blue Girl.. |
problem with my roses-need help
Radika Kesavan wrote:
Interesting. There are only two roses amongst my 100 plus roses which exhibit this phenomenon of getting damaged by the rain also; one is Blue Ribbon and the other is Sheer Bliss. Just two ... I wonder ... I wonder if it is a function of certain kind of petal weight and colour combination. All the roses the three of us have mentioned so far - SdlM, Blue Girl, Blue Ribbon and Sheer Bliss are heavily fragrant as well as lightish pink to mauve roses, aren't they. Petal weight has definitely been a suspect in my mind with Blue Girl. She has such thin delicate petals. As far as anything else goes disease-wise, I've had a bit of problem with black spot which was easily remedied by spraying. Both of mine are more or less isolated (though the two are not far apart) so they get plenty of air flow. No sign of thrips or anything else - just these tannish edges on the outer petals that looks suspiciously like water damage. I've only had one other rose on a different bush show the same type of damage and this was a bloom that was pressed up against the house where dampness got trapped between those couple of petals and the house. That bloom was in a cluster and it was the only one that did that and those petals on that bloom were the only ones that showed that damage. Susan shsimko at duke dot edu |
problem with my roses-need help
Blue Girl is a kordes rose. And I will always have considerable respect for his roses. Seems there are many lines for this rose. Most of them weak. If you get the vigorous line, cool, if not it sucks. But there are so many roses that you don't have to worry about this way! Shakes head in incomprehension -- Theo in Zone 5 Kansas City "MaryMind" wrote in message ... My neighbor's is absolutely glorious this year and I'm extremely jealous and planning on getting one for myself!! The only thing strange is that now she's two rose buses in one due to an injudicious pruning session by an amateur gardner last Fall. Located in Zone 7 Chapel Hill NC Mary Theo Asir wrote: I never hear anything good about this rose why do people still try to grow it. Just Curious. -- Theo in Zone 5 Kansas City "Ol' Thornfinger" wrote in message ... My Blue Girl is a regular Typhoid Mary too. She picks up everything. So far, I've managed to keep the blackspot to a minimum, but I figure it's only a matter of time. No blooms yet, so I don't know if they'll be brown yet, but they were last year. JimS. Seattle My thrips seems to have a love affair with my Blue Girl.. |
problem with my roses-need help
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