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GM crop farms filled with weeds
On 4 Sep 2003 13:27:27 GMT, Brian Sandle
posted: Mooshie peas wrote: On 2 Sep 2003 12:05:00 GMT, Brian Sandle posted: In sci.agriculture Dean Hoffman wrote: On 8/24/03 9:13 AM, in article , "Brian Sandle" wrote: Some cut. The folks are stariving because they cannot pay the world market prices for the food, because they do not have work. There are surpluses of food. The cost of the actual raw materials going into food aren't the real problem. Transportation and packaging add more to the cost in many cases than the actual foodstuff. The USDA used to have an online chart showing how much money a farmer got compared to the consumer cost. I think there's about 2¢ U.S. worth of wheat in a loaf of bread, for example. I'll try to find it if you're interested. So it cannot be said that agriculture is the major stumbling block in getting food to the poor. Well yes, if the starving people can't grow their food. That's agriculture. What is the US$ cost of bread? It looks like the wheat growing cost is about 2% and you call that the major stumbling block? No, I wasn't aware that bread was a stumbling block for Americans. The people can't grow their food because they are trying to earn money by growing cash crops to export. They get paid very little, then they take the notion they can earn something by growing food for the local market. Then USA dumps the GM food which they cannot sell, and the poor farmers go out of business. They travel to the cities and cannot grow food there. It's not just food they need. But this is neocolonialism. What has this to do with GM? Whereas there was competition between various types of weeds before, Roundup has killed ones except those which it can't and those now have a free reign. There were some weeds that weren't controlled very well at all before Roundup. Common dog bane is one example. It's tough to control even with Roundup. There are chemicals other than Roundup that can be used in most cases. How often does the RR farmer have to buy those extras? As often as needed. Nothing much has changed wrt to some weeds. Not controlled well with glyphosate before RR crops So other herbicides were used. Different herbicides are surely needed at different times for different crops and different weeds. Hasn't it been ever thus? and the same after RR crops. Now it is claimed only glyphosate is needed. A lie. Sorry? What ar you trying to say? Sometimes glyphosate will control all the weeds and sometimes other things are needed. Geez that's why farmers are intelligent Crop and chemical rotation is accepted practice as far as I know. Not as simple as just RR. Huh? For weeds that are not well controlled with glyphosate? The advertising suggests buying RR and glyphosate solves your problem. But no, rotation &c is needed. Could you quote this? What crops? What weeds? What geographic location? You sound like the idiots who claim that golden rice is no good because it doesn't supply ALL the carotene requirements. It's a bloody sight better than nothing, and the technology can always improve. Talk about looking a gift horse in the mouth. You admit it depends on the economics. Roundup Ready is suppoed to make it cheaper. But it hasn't because of extra applicaitons and other herbicides required. I've asked farmers on occasion if RR pays. There was a slight yield drag with RR soybeans at first but I think the drag has been eliminated. At cost of what? The plant has to make the RR detoxifier which takes some of its energy. So where is that made up? In not having to make some of the other thousands of proteins plants make? Less of the wanted ones? We do eat corn and soy for some protein. Protein is a very impoortant constituent of both of these. It doesn't matter which arrangement of amino acids make these up, coz it's just the amino acids that we absorb and use. The farmers would rotate RR beans into corn fields to help control the weeds that multiply in continuous corn. RR corn? Read what was said. RRbeans are grown to control weeds with glyphosate that are not easy to control with the corn crop, and which get a grip of the land without the good control the glyphosate provides, or that's how I read it. Then why are seed suppliers saying you must rotate, is what I am getting at. I imagine because the weeds that are getting away can be more easily controlled with a different crop. What the farmer needs to be able to do is to grow the crop that will give him the biggest profit. End of story. Roundup ready beans have made a big change in my area, (Nebraska, USA). Weeds used to be a real problem. Whole families of Latinos used to hand weed the fields to get the weeds not killed by other chemicals or normal tillage. So what is their work now? MacDonalds, or some other service industry. Is general health and welfare increasing or decreasing? Of Western civilisations? Yes. Others vary. It's not necessary to rogue beans anymore. Dog bane may be escaping Roundup control. Now Roundup has killed other weeds which used to compete with it is it not taking over more? Are there examples of weeds becoming rampant because something that they were competitors with has been given a nudge? I wouldn't have thought so, and would wonder it it matters much. A non-crop plant is a non-crop plant is a weed. I wrote about the nettles in Gordon's http. What used to be their prevalence in cotton fields before RR cotton? Depends on how well they were killed, I guess. And the weather, and the season.... The technological progress of GM is aimed at, and is achieving the goal, of increased wealth of a limited group of technology companies. Well, corn farmers in the U.S. do not grow their own seed. But they do in many countries, where agriculture employs more people. Well it's all to do with economic pragmatism. About which Jim and I have been writing. He adivses me that if I stop GM economy Could you define this GM economy"? and try to really help third world rather than keep the dependent they way of USA that I may lose my job as they become cleverer. As the billions of folk in the world become educated, and produce and compete, the closer you and I will come to enjoying the world average standard of livfing. Get used to it Hybrid corn came into use decades ago. Apparently, it's a good deal for them and the seed companies. Several farmers in my area raise seed corn for the seed companies. It's a hassle but it pays better than commercial corn. I spend a lot of time in corn and bean fields. The fields are much cleaner now than in the past due to better chemicals and farming practices. Though the resistant weeds have fewer competitors and over some years must be more of a problem. Not if managed with suitable herbicides. So don't brag that you only need glyphosate with RR crops. Sorry, I've never even heard this, let allone done it myself. I thought it was obvious that some weeds in some areas are not amenable to glyphosate control, so it is obvious that although RR crops give you the advantage of being able to use this useful herbicide while the crop is growing, if another herbicide is needed for a particular weed, then tough, them's the breaks. Just because glyphosate has not been turned into some super herbicide with RR crops does not meant it is not an extremely valuable technology. Some farmers here no till their crops in. More are switching to no or minimum till each year. Some don't cultivate at all. They just use spray to control the weeds. That helps keep the organic matter up and the soil erosion down. But as I posted no till has been happening here without GM, GM being illegal still. Only with herbicides, of course. Herbicide resistant crops make it that much easier and actually possible in some cases. Can use pine oil. Pine oil is a herbicide? Or perhaps mow or prune off the weeds and let them lie. But we don't want any traffic over out fragile soils Mowing requires constant traffic and is still nowhere near as effective as a knock down herbicide that can be applied from the air if necessary. With RR technology you apply it to the food people are going to eat. So? It's about the least toxic substance about. The dish liquid they use in it as a wetting agent is far more toxic. Legal tolerance limits for it in food have been adjusted way up to allow for the process. And you have evidence of this is causing any problems? |
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