What to do with shreddings
 

I have just generated a few sackfuls of ivy shreddings. It's good stuff
- a nice mixture of woody and leafy, and quite fine. I would normally
simply add the shreddings to my compost heap.

However, I'm wondering whether to put them straight onto some vegetable
beds and cover with black polythene in the hope that they will be
reasonably well rotted down by springtime. I'm just a bit concerned that
in rotting they will deplete the soil of nitrogen, or is that just a
temporary effect when they're very fresh?

Janet G

What to do with shreddings
 

"Janet Galpin" wrote in message
...
I have just generated a few sackfuls of ivy shreddings. It's good stuff
- a nice mixture of woody and leafy, and quite fine. I would normally
simply add the shreddings to my compost heap.

However, I'm wondering whether to put them straight onto some vegetable
beds and cover with black polythene in the hope that they will be
reasonably well rotted down by springtime. I'm just a bit concerned that
in rotting they will deplete the soil of nitrogen, or is that just a
temporary effect when they're very fresh?

I woould leave them in the sacks, assuming they are polythene sacks.

Alan


Janet G

What to do with shreddings
 

Rot down first otherwise the ivy could very well root and "Bingo" perfect
ground cover. Try tying in black polythene sacks for a month or so to start
the breakdown process. poke a few small holes for drainage.
regards
Cineman


"Janet Galpin" wrote in message
...
I have just generated a few sackfuls of ivy shreddings. It's good stuff
- a nice mixture of woody and leafy, and quite fine. I would normally
simply add the shreddings to my compost heap.

However, I'm wondering whether to put them straight onto some vegetable
beds and cover with black polythene in the hope that they will be
reasonably well rotted down by springtime. I'm just a bit concerned that
in rotting they will deplete the soil of nitrogen, or is that just a
temporary effect when they're very fresh?

Janet G

What to do with shreddings
 

"Janet Galpin" wrote in message
...
I have just generated a few sackfuls of ivy shreddings. It's good stuff
- a nice mixture of woody and leafy, and quite fine. I would normally
simply add the shreddings to my compost heap.

However, I'm wondering whether to put them straight onto some vegetable
beds and cover with black polythene in the hope that they will be
reasonably well rotted down by springtime. I'm just a bit concerned that
in rotting they will deplete the soil of nitrogen, or is that just a
temporary effect when they're very fresh?

Janet G


The message
from "cineman" contains these words:

Rot down first otherwise the ivy could very well root and "Bingo" perfect
ground cover. Try tying in black polythene sacks for a month or so to start
the breakdown process. poke a few small holes for drainage.
regards
Cineman

The ivy is quite finely shredded. I wouldn't have thought it could root
from shreddings. I was hoping that covering with black polythene would
create the same kind of conditions as keeping them in black polythene
sacks.

Janet G

What to do with shreddings
 

On Sat, 15 Oct 2005 10:38:20 +0100, Janet Galpin
wrote:

I have just generated a few sackfuls of ivy shreddings. It's good stuff
- a nice mixture of woody and leafy, and quite fine. I would normally
simply add the shreddings to my compost heap.

However, I'm wondering whether to put them straight onto some vegetable
beds and cover with black polythene in the hope that they will be
reasonably well rotted down by springtime. I'm just a bit concerned that
in rotting they will deplete the soil of nitrogen, or is that just a
temporary effect when they're very fresh?

Janet G

AIUI fresh shreddings etc do deplete the soil of nitrogen initially as
bacteria rot them down, but when the bacteria die that nitrogen
becomes available again. It's not permanently locked up.


--
Chris

E-mail: christopher[dot]hogg[at]virgin[dot]net

What to do with shreddings
 

AIUI fresh shreddings etc do deplete the soil of nitrogen initially as
bacteria rot them down, but when the bacteria die that nitrogen
becomes available again. It's not permanently locked up.


--
Its much much better to add the shreddings to your compost bin that way you
get a good mix of nutrients

What to do with shreddings
 

The message
from "nambucca" contains these words:



AIUI fresh shreddings etc do deplete the soil of nitrogen initially as
bacteria rot them down, but when the bacteria die that nitrogen
becomes available again. It's not permanently locked up.


--
Its much much better to add the shreddings to your compost bin that way you
get a good mix of nutrients

I understand that, in a perfect world and with more time at my disposal,
this would be the best thing to do. At the moment, however, until I
retire etc, I could do with one or two short-cuts.
Another advantage of putting the ivy shreddings straight onto the beds
is that they should be weed-free whereas the same doesn't apply to my
compost heap. I'm really wanting to know whether I'm creating any
problems for myself in the spring, i.e. that there will be no benefit at
all or even that I might have reduced fertility.
If there is *some* benefit, given the ease of the procedure, then that
will make it worth my while.

Thanks
Janet G

What to do with shreddings
 

"Janet Galpin" wrote in message
...


"Janet Galpin" wrote in message
...
I have just generated a few sackfuls of ivy shreddings. It's good stuff
- a nice mixture of woody and leafy, and quite fine. I would normally
simply add the shreddings to my compost heap.

However, I'm wondering whether to put them straight onto some
vegetable
beds and cover with black polythene in the hope that they will be
reasonably well rotted down by springtime. I'm just a bit concerned
that
in rotting they will deplete the soil of nitrogen, or is that just a
temporary effect when they're very fresh?

Janet G


The message
from "cineman" contains these words:

Rot down first otherwise the ivy could very well root and "Bingo"
perfect
ground cover. Try tying in black polythene sacks for a month or so to
start
the breakdown process. poke a few small holes for drainage.
regards
Cineman

The ivy is quite finely shredded. I wouldn't have thought it could root
from shreddings. I was hoping that covering with black polythene would
create the same kind of conditions as keeping them in black polythene
sacks.

Janet G

I always put mine straight on, shredded ivy wont root, but beware if there
were any seed heads, made that mistake one year and had a wonderful crop of
ivy seedlings (the blackbirds really don't need any help with that job!)
--
Charlie, gardening in Cornwall.
http://www.roselandhouse.co.uk
Holders of National Plant Collection of Clematis viticella (cvs)

What to do with shreddings
 

In article , Janet Galpin
writes
The message
from "nambucca" contains these words:



AIUI fresh shreddings etc do deplete the soil of nitrogen initially as
bacteria rot them down, but when the bacteria die that nitrogen
becomes available again. It's not permanently locked up.


--
Its much much better to add the shreddings to your compost bin that way you
get a good mix of nutrients

I understand that, in a perfect world and with more time at my disposal,
this would be the best thing to do. At the moment, however, until I
retire etc, I could do with one or two short-cuts.
Another advantage of putting the ivy shreddings straight onto the beds
is that they should be weed-free whereas the same doesn't apply to my
compost heap. I'm really wanting to know whether I'm creating any
problems for myself in the spring, i.e. that there will be no benefit at
all or even that I might have reduced fertility.
If there is *some* benefit, given the ease of the procedure, then that
will make it worth my while.

If it were me, I would put it straight on to the beds. Any reduction in
fertility will be short lived (and I must admit I've never noticed a
problem although others claim to have), long term benefit will be large.

I haven't used shredded ivy as a mulch, but I do use shreddings and
partially rotted compost, and it makes a huge difference to the
consistency of the soil.
--
Kay Start every day with a smile and get it over with
WC Fields

What to do with shreddings
 

My advice would be not to put ivy shreddings straight onto your bed as even
a small piece of stem can throw off roots , and as i said before you would
have the perfect groundcover. Keep in black plastic bags under a bush or
hedge for a few weeks just to start the rotting process.

regards
Cineman

"Janet Galpin" wrote in message
...
The message
from "nambucca" contains these words:



AIUI fresh shreddings etc do deplete the soil of nitrogen initially as
bacteria rot them down, but when the bacteria die that nitrogen
becomes available again. It's not permanently locked up.


--
Its much much better to add the shreddings to your compost bin that way
you
get a good mix of nutrients

I understand that, in a perfect world and with more time at my disposal,
this would be the best thing to do. At the moment, however, until I
retire etc, I could do with one or two short-cuts.
Another advantage of putting the ivy shreddings straight onto the beds
is that they should be weed-free whereas the same doesn't apply to my
compost heap. I'm really wanting to know whether I'm creating any
problems for myself in the spring, i.e. that there will be no benefit at
all or even that I might have reduced fertility.
If there is *some* benefit, given the ease of the procedure, then that
will make it worth my while.

Thanks
Janet G

What to do with shreddings
 

cineman wrote:
My advice would be not to put ivy shreddings straight onto your bed as even
a small piece of stem can throw off roots , and as i said before you would
have the perfect groundcover. Keep in black plastic bags under a bush or
hedge for a few weeks just to start the rotting process.

What about holly?! I'm having my holly tree professionaly pruned. I was
offered the shreddings as they bring a machine with them. I accepted
thinking it would be a fabulous mulch but now I'm wondering if it's not
too acid? Maybe only for the paths ... but even though, am I making a
mistake?

What to do with shreddings
 

In article .com, La
puce writes

cineman wrote:
My advice would be not to put ivy shreddings straight onto your bed as even
a small piece of stem can throw off roots , and as i said before you would
have the perfect groundcover. Keep in black plastic bags under a bush or
hedge for a few weeks just to start the rotting process.

What about holly?! I'm having my holly tree professionaly pruned. I was
offered the shreddings as they bring a machine with them. I accepted
thinking it would be a fabulous mulch but now I'm wondering if it's not
too acid? Maybe only for the paths ... but even though, am I making a
mistake?

Please can someone with botanical and chemical knowledge explain this
thing about leaves being acid? I know that peat bogs are acid, but could
someone please explain the process by which pine needles. holly etc
render the soil acid?
--
Kay
"Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river"

What to do with shreddings
 

"Kay" wrote in message
...
In article .com, La
puce writes

cineman wrote:
My advice would be not to put ivy shreddings straight onto your bed as
even
a small piece of stem can throw off roots , and as i said before you
would
have the perfect groundcover. Keep in black plastic bags under a bush
or
hedge for a few weeks just to start the rotting process.

What about holly?! I'm having my holly tree professionaly pruned. I was
offered the shreddings as they bring a machine with them. I accepted
thinking it would be a fabulous mulch but now I'm wondering if it's not
too acid? Maybe only for the paths ... but even though, am I making a
mistake?

Please can someone with botanical and chemical knowledge explain this
thing about leaves being acid? I know that peat bogs are acid, but could
someone please explain the process by which pine needles. holly etc
render the soil acid?
--
Kay
"Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river"

I do not think they make the soil acid, (I thought all soils are acid unless
there is some limestone or chalk around to make them alkaline, so soils on
volcanic islands would be acid and counties like Cornwall are largely acid
due to lack of limestone or chalk) but rather if you create soil humus with
vegetable matter it is bound to be acid, so if you dilute your soil with it,
the effect is of lowering ph. I would have thought on strongly alkaline
soils the effect would be small but it may tip the balance on neutral soils.
I too shall be interested in the deliberations of the more scientific among
us. But I do know that attempting to lower ph on alkaline soils in order to
grow say Rhodos is pretty much a waste of time and effort so making soil
acid must be quite hard.

--
Charlie, gardening in Cornwall.
http://www.roselandhouse.co.uk
Holders of National Plant Collection of Clematis viticella (cvs)

What to do with shreddings
 

In article , Charlie
Pridham writes

"Kay" wrote in message
...
In article .com, La
puce writes

cineman wrote:
My advice would be not to put ivy shreddings straight onto your bed as
even
a small piece of stem can throw off roots , and as i said before you
would
have the perfect groundcover. Keep in black plastic bags under a bush
or
hedge for a few weeks just to start the rotting process.

What about holly?! I'm having my holly tree professionaly pruned. I was
offered the shreddings as they bring a machine with them. I accepted
thinking it would be a fabulous mulch but now I'm wondering if it's not
too acid? Maybe only for the paths ... but even though, am I making a
mistake?

Please can someone with botanical and chemical knowledge explain this
thing about leaves being acid? I know that peat bogs are acid, but could
someone please explain the process by which pine needles. holly etc
render the soil acid?

I do not think they make the soil acid, (I thought all soils are acid unless
there is some limestone or chalk around to make them alkaline, so soils on
volcanic islands would be acid and counties like Cornwall are largely acid
due to lack of limestone or chalk) but rather if you create soil humus with
vegetable matter it is bound to be acid,

Why is it 'bound' to be acid? Does the vegetable matter start off acid,
or is it the process of decomposition which makes it so, and if so, what
is the chemical process? There's a big gap in my knowledge here!

--
Kay
"Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river"

What to do with shreddings
 

Kay wrote:
In article .com,
La
puce writes

cineman wrote:
My advice would be not to put ivy shreddings straight onto your
bed
as even a small piece of stem can throw off roots , and as i said
before you would have the perfect groundcover. Keep in black
plastic bags under a bush or hedge for a few weeks just to start
the rotting process.

What about holly?! I'm having my holly tree professionaly pruned.
I
was offered the shreddings as they bring a machine with them. I
accepted thinking it would be a fabulous mulch but now I'm
wondering
if it's not too acid? Maybe only for the paths ... but even
though,
am I making a mistake?

Please can someone with botanical and chemical knowledge explain
this
thing about leaves being acid? I know that peat bogs are acid, but
could someone please explain the process by which pine needles.
holly
etc render the soil acid?

It's yer nitrogen balance, innit, missis? Yer plant, nah, that's like
all nitrogen and yer long-chain molecules an 'at. Yer calcium
compahns, onneuvverand, what is what achieves yer Swiss-style
neutrality, are fahnd in trivial quantities in yer average vegetable
material; an what there is, is leached aht by yer rainfall. Take it
from me, lady: you leave that stuff lyin abaht, you'll ave a bloomin
peat-bog before you can say "Paddy Murphy".

--
Mike.

What to do with shreddings
 

In article , Mike Lyle mike_lyle_uk@REMO
VETHISyahoo.co.uk writes
Kay wrote:
In article .com,

Please can someone with botanical and chemical knowledge explain
this
thing about leaves being acid? I know that peat bogs are acid, but
could someone please explain the process by which pine needles.
holly
etc render the soil acid?

It's yer nitrogen balance, innit, missis? Yer plant, nah, that's like
all nitrogen and yer long-chain molecules an 'at. Yer calcium
compahns, onneuvverand, what is what achieves yer Swiss-style
neutrality, are fahnd in trivial quantities in yer average vegetable
material; an what there is, is leached aht by yer rainfall. Take it
from me, lady: you leave that stuff lyin abaht, you'll ave a bloomin
peat-bog before you can say "Paddy Murphy".

Are you saying that any compound containing nitrogen is acidic?
--
Kay
"Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river"

What to do with shreddings
 

"Kay" wrote in message
...
In article , Mike Lyle mike_lyle_uk@REMO
VETHISyahoo.co.uk writes
Kay wrote:
In article .com,

Please can someone with botanical and chemical knowledge explain
this
thing about leaves being acid? I know that peat bogs are acid, but
could someone please explain the process by which pine needles.
holly
etc render the soil acid?

Many leaves, stems, barks, flowers etc contain tannins (tannic acid) which
are leached into the soil therefore lowering its pH.

During the decomposition process the acids are either leached away,
neutralised or broken down.

It's yer nitrogen balance, innit, missis? Yer plant, nah, that's like
all nitrogen and yer long-chain molecules an 'at. Yer calcium
compahns, onneuvverand, what is what achieves yer Swiss-style
neutrality, are fahnd in trivial quantities in yer average vegetable
material; an what there is, is leached aht by yer rainfall. Take it
from me, lady: you leave that stuff lyin abaht, you'll ave a bloomin
peat-bog before you can say "Paddy Murphy".

Are you saying that any compound containing nitrogen is acidic?

No many are basic eg ammonium hydroxide

Nitrogen is also an essential component of protein.

Very simply
Woody plants are low in nitrogen when the plants are being broken down the
bacteria need a source of nitrogen and can deplete the soil around them.
When the bacteria die the nitrogen is fixed in soil again and is usable
again.

Also many nitrogen fixing bacteria cannot live in acidic conditions
therefore unusable nitrogen cannot be fixed.

What to do with shreddings
 

suspicious minds wrote:
Many leaves, stems, barks, flowers etc contain tannins (tannic acid) which
are leached into the soil therefore lowering its pH.
During the decomposition process the acids are either leached away,
neutralised or broken down.

So, my holly leaves would leached away considerably before being broken
down and therefore it could poison/damage plants around it. Yes? Then
again the holly leaves takes ages and ages to decompose ... Looks like
I also might end up with a couple of tons of the stuff. Holly leaves
anyone?!

Very simply
Woody plants are low in nitrogen when the plants are being broken down the
bacteria need a source of nitrogen and can deplete the soil around them.
When the bacteria die the nitrogen is fixed in soil again and is usable
again.
Also many nitrogen fixing bacteria cannot live in acidic conditions
therefore unusable nitrogen cannot be fixed.

Would you perhaps know how long it takes for the soil to be usable
again?

What to do with shreddings
 

"La puce" wrote in message
oups.com...

suspicious minds wrote:
Many leaves, stems, barks, flowers etc contain tannins (tannic acid)
which
are leached into the soil therefore lowering its pH.
During the decomposition process the acids are either leached away,
neutralised or broken down.

So, my holly leaves would leached away considerably before being broken
down and therefore it could poison/damage plants around it. Yes? Then
again the holly leaves takes ages and ages to decompose ... Looks like
I also might end up with a couple of tons of the stuff. Holly leaves
anyone?!

Depends on your soil type but woodlands usually have good growth in the
spring after the being carpeted in leaves in the autumn.

Very simply
Woody plants are low in nitrogen when the plants are being broken down
the
bacteria need a source of nitrogen and can deplete the soil around them.
When the bacteria die the nitrogen is fixed in soil again and is usable
again.
Also many nitrogen fixing bacteria cannot live in acidic conditions
therefore unusable nitrogen cannot be fixed.

Would you perhaps know how long it takes for the soil to be usable
again?

You misunderstood I meant usable nitrogen not soil.

What to do with shreddings
 

suspicious minds wrote:
Depends on your soil type but woodlands usually have good growth in the
spring after the being carpeted in leaves in the autumn.

It's really dry around the holly tree, hard and compact. The leaves
rest there for months before showing sign of any decomposition.
Hopefully with a good hair cut the tree won't cast so much shade, and
obviously won't shed so many leaves. This year it was terrible, really
damp, no air going around, and I have another huge lime tree on the
other side, but that's from the street and I can't do nothing about it.


I'll keep the holly shreddings with my leaf mulch and will use it next
year or perhaps the following year. Ta for all your advice.

You misunderstood I meant usable nitrogen not soil.

Off course. I won't risk mulching my lotty plots with the holly leaves.

What to do with shreddings
 

In article , Janet Galpin
writes
The ivy is quite finely shredded. I wouldn't have thought it could root
from shreddings. I was hoping that covering with black polythene would
create the same kind of conditions as keeping them in black polythene
sacks.

Janet G


I'd dig a trench, fill it with the shredding then cover and start a new
trench etc. Did this last year for the beans and it seems to work fine,
--
Janet Tweedy
Dalmatian Telegraph
http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk

What to do with shreddings
 

On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 20:00:16 +0100, Kay
wrote:

In article , Charlie
Pridham writes

"Kay" wrote in message
...
In article .com, La

Please can someone with botanical and chemical knowledge explain this
thing about leaves being acid? I know that peat bogs are acid, but could
someone please explain the process by which pine needles. holly etc
render the soil acid?

I do not think they make the soil acid, (I thought all soils are acid unless
there is some limestone or chalk around to make them alkaline, so soils on
volcanic islands would be acid and counties like Cornwall are largely acid
due to lack of limestone or chalk) but rather if you create soil humus with
vegetable matter it is bound to be acid,

Why is it 'bound' to be acid? Does the vegetable matter start off acid,
or is it the process of decomposition which makes it so, and if so, what
is the chemical process? There's a big gap in my knowledge here!

Most vegetable matter is naturally acidic. I have the following
average pH figures for various vegetables, with a range of typically
+/- 0.2 units:

Cabbage 5.3
Carrots 5.1
Peas 6.1
Potatoes 5.8
Pumpkin 5.0
Rhubarb 3.1
Spinach 5.4
Tomatoes 4.2
Turnips 5.4

Fruits are generally even more acidic:

Apples 3.1
Cherries 3.6
Gooseberries 2.9
Oranges 3.5
Plums 2.9
Raspberries 3.4
Strawberries 3.3

(Source: Handbook of Chemistry and Physics, CRC Press, 1985 edition,
aka 'The Rubber Bible')

Between 10 and 20% of wood is capable of being dissolved in dilute
alkali (the amount depending on the type of wood), implying it
contains significant amounts of acidic compounds, presumably tannic,
gallic and similar acids. Quinic acid is found in hay and leaves.

From all of the above I think it's reasonable to assume that virtually
all the garden waste going onto your compost heap is acidic to some
degree.

In a well-aerated compost heap, more acidic compounds are generated
and carbon dioxide is given off as the organic matter is oxidised by
bacteria. In general terms, oxidation of carbohydrate-type materials
such as the sugars and starches present in leafy and woody material
often proceeds via organic acids before complete oxidation to carbon
dioxide. As examples, bacterial oxidation is used in some industrial
manufacturing processes (e.g. Vitamin C from glucose), and that
half-finished bottle of wine soon turns to vinegar unless air is
excluded.

Having said all that, I read many years ago that leafmould made from
beech trees growing on chalk shouldn't be used for mulching
rhododendrons, as the beech leaves in that situation are high in
calcium. But the author didn't say the leafmould was actually
alkaline, although I suppose it is possible. Salts of weak acids (such
as the organic acids being considered here) and a weakish base such as
calcium can be alkaline if the base is strong enough and the acid weak
enough, which may be the case here. But equally well he may just have
been under the misapprehension that all calcium from whatever source
was bad for rhodies.


--
Chris

E-mail: christopher[dot]hogg[at]virgin[dot]net