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Distance Learning/Correspondence Courses
Hello, I'm new to the newsgroups so I apologise if I'm posting in the wrong place. I've been thinking about doing a distance learning/correspondence course in horticulture. I was wondering if anyone here had done one, and if so which College they learnt with. I have received a prospectus so far from both the Institute for Horticulture & Rural Studies and the Horticulture Correspondence College. Has anyone had any experience with either of these two places? Thanking you in anticipation... Ali |
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Hello,
I signed up with a course with the HCC. The info they supplied was thorough - very complete, almost overboard. The main thing to descide is - is this mode of learning your style. Are you the sort of person who learns by bantering around the subject with fellow class mates or can you just read a book and see everthing as clear as day. Distance learning is great - if it is right for you. Clifford Bawtry, Doncaster, S, Yorks |
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"cliff_the_gardener" wrote in message oups.com... Hello, I signed up with a course with the HCC. The info they supplied was thorough - very complete, almost overboard. The main thing to descide is - is this mode of learning your style. Are you the sort of person who learns by bantering around the subject with fellow class mates or can you just read a book and see everthing as clear as day. Distance learning is great - if it is right for you. Clifford Bawtry, Doncaster, S, Yorks Warning OT :~) I (almost) had an argument with one of our prospective new neighbours (Dordogne) about learning French. She was of the' "one needs to know the grammar before even stating out" whereas I am of the "parrot school of learning" :~)) Jenny |
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The message
from "JennyC" contains these words: Warning OT :~) I (almost) had an argument with one of our prospective new neighbours (Dordogne) about learning French. She was of the' "one needs to know the grammar before even stating out" whereas I am of the "parrot school of learning" :~ I'd agree with her. In the case of French, a very early basic dose of the declension of common irregular verbs makes the most basic daily understanding, reading and speaking so much easier. It enables the listener to recognise he's just hearing or seeing variations of the same frequently used verb (ai, as, avons, avez , ont, all mean "have"; they also form part of the past tense of regular verbs ). They'll be listed in the early pages of a basic grammar book. Even just recognising (by ear and in print) the forms of etre and avoir gives a massive advantage. If one has that basic grasp of the commonest verb variations, it's then quicker and easier to pick up French by "total immersion" which as you say is the best way to learn a language. Can you get French TV at home? Janet. |
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"JennyC" wrote in message ... "cliff_the_gardener" wrote in message oups.com... Hello, I signed up with a course with the HCC. The info they supplied was thorough - very complete, almost overboard. The main thing to descide is - is this mode of learning your style. Are you the sort of person who learns by bantering around the subject with fellow class mates or can you just read a book and see everthing as clear as day. Distance learning is great - if it is right for you. Clifford Bawtry, Doncaster, S, Yorks Warning OT :~) I (almost) had an argument with one of our prospective new neighbours (Dordogne) about learning French. She was of the' "one needs to know the grammar before even stating out" whereas I am of the "parrot school of learning" :~)) Jenny Looks like your prospective neighbour should be getting a fair few bottles of wine from you by way of apology. She is right, however, if she really says "one" as the subject then forget the wine:-) You could always adopt the Basil Fawlty way of speaking any foreign language which is to shout twice as loud in English. |
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The message
from "Rupert" contains these words: if she really says "one" as the subject then forget the wine:-) Course she does, "on" doesn't carry the same stilted connotation in French that "one" does in English. It's a also a delicate French social courtesy to frame a little correction, or assertion, in the third person, less confrontational than using the first or second. You could always adopt the Basil Fawlty way of speaking any foreign language which is to shout twice as loud in English. Well, that would be the best way to alienate the natives and be sure of being stuck in the expat ghetto for ever. One had better be a very good cook. Janet |
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In article , Janet Baraclough
writes If one has that basic grasp of the commonest verb variations, it's then quicker and easier to pick up French by "total immersion" which as you say is the best way to learn a language. Can you get French TV at home? Yes Janet, you sound just like my husband - my French is great, everyone hangs on to my every word - they just stare at me. My husband then explains (in a restaurant) that I have just asked for Duck jam instead of confit d'canard. The French waitress was also rude in that she corrected me three times when I asked for the desert menu, it was amusing the first time she stressed the pronunciation; and I then tried to say it as she said it, she repeated it again, in a louder voice, and again I tried but when she repeated it to me, in a very loud voice, for the third time, I retorted with just bring me the ****** menu please (in my best French of course). After all I had gone there to eat not to have a French lesson! -- Judith Lea |
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In article , Judith Lea writes: | In article , Janet Baraclough | writes | If one has that basic grasp of the commonest verb variations, it's then | quicker and easier to pick up French by "total immersion" which as you | say is the best way to learn a language. Can you get French TV at home? | | Yes Janet, you sound just like my husband - my French is great, everyone | hangs on to my every word - they just stare at me. My husband then | explains (in a restaurant) that I have just asked for Duck jam instead | of confit d'canard. Nice :-) One thing that is often missed is that French is one of the hardest languages for a Germanic language speaker to hear - far worse than Arabic and Japanese, though not as bad as Chinese. I tried resuscitating my French a decade ago with a tape and discovered that the vowels are completely inaudible to me when spoken by most Frenchwomen and are always indistinguishable from each other (as are the word breaks). That is NOT just a matter of volume, either, despite my hearing loss. For the people in that situation (at a wild guess, 30% of the UK), immersion is a complete waste of time. I used to be able to read simple French (e.g. newspapers, popular novels) faster than most French people, and can still read it after a fashion. I can neither speak nor hear it reliably, but can just about communicate. This is not all that rare, and is not always solved by any amount of practice, immersion or torture. Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
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The message
from Janet Baraclough contains these words: I'd agree with her. In the case of French, a very early basic dose of the declension of common irregular verbs Conjugation, IYWBSK - Declensions are for nouns. makes the most basic daily understanding, reading and speaking so much easier. It enables the listener to recognise he's just hearing or seeing variations of the same frequently used verb (ai, as, avons, avez , ont, all mean "have"; they also form part of the past tense of regular verbs ). They'll be listed in the early pages of a basic grammar book. Even just recognising (by ear and in print) the forms of etre and avoir gives a massive advantage. Je suis que Je suis, mai Je ne suis pas que Je suis. If one has that basic grasp of the commonest verb variations, it's then quicker and easier to pick up French by "total immersion" which as you say is the best way to learn a language. Can you get French TV at home? I tend to the 'little bit of grammar and vocabulary, then throw in the deep-end' approach. By this method I learnt quickly, and at school I spoke French quite fluently, gaining 95% for GCE French Oral. J'ai forgottenai most de it maintenant innit. -- Rusty Direct reply to: horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co period uk Separator in search of a sig |
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The message
from Sacha contains these words: On 7/2/06 12:26, in article , "Judith Lea" wrote: Yes Janet, you sound just like my husband - my French is great, everyone hangs on to my every word - they just stare at me. My husband then explains (in a restaurant) that I have just asked for Duck jam instead of confit d'canard. This sounds like one of my better gaffes in Italian - hot, bothered and beleaguered by my children, I was doing some food shopping. I asked the startled shopkeeper and his heavily pregnant wife if I could have 'sei pommerigi' instead of 'sei pommodori' - six afternoons, instead of six tomatoes. Once she realised I was not inviting her husband into a career as a gigolo, the wife laughed so much I thought she was going to give birth then and there! And my sister while at the University of Pisa, asking for 'finoccio' - take your pick, either fennel or a gay bloke. She very soon learnt to point to suggestively shaped vegetables too, and ask for half a kilo of those, and three of those, and... The French waitress was also rude in that she corrected me three times when I asked for the desert menu, it was amusing the first time she stressed the pronunciation; and I then tried to say it as she said it, she repeated it again, in a louder voice, and again I tried but when she repeated it to me, in a very loud voice, for the third time, I retorted with just bring me the ****** menu please (in my best French of course). After all I had gone there to eat not to have a French lesson! VERY rude! But I think that a smattering of the basics and then as much chat as you can get your hands on is a very good way to learn a language. If you have just a start in the verbs and how to ask for a few things in shops etc., it's remarkable how quickly you can build on that. Some friends of mine moved to France several years ago and spoke what was really very basic school French. They made a deliberate choice to live where there were no foreigners and within a year they had made almost entirely French friends and were yakking away nineteen to the dozen. It's loike thet hair in Naaaaarfk, thet it is. Dew yew troy tew foller some squit sometimes and yer lorst. -- Rusty Direct reply to: horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co period uk Separator in search of a sig |
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In article , Sacha
writes This sounds like one of my better gaffes in Italian - hot, bothered and beleaguered by my children, I was doing some food shopping. I asked the startled shopkeeper and his heavily pregnant wife if I could have 'sei pommerigi' instead of 'sei pommodori' - six afternoons, instead of six tomatoes. Once she realised I was not inviting her husband into a career as a gigolo, the wife laughed so much I thought she was going to give birth then and there! You hussy! They made a deliberate choice to live where there were no foreigners and within a year they had made almost entirely French friends and were yakking away nineteen to the dozen. Us too, we don't have any English in the vicinity but my husband who worked and lived in France in fluent and when I am with him, he tends to do the talking but I do go and take coffee with my farmer neighbours, adorable couple, and I chat away, Henri's eyes glaze over every now and then but Marie-Louise seems to understand me and we spend a lot of time together - she shows me how to make a meal from nothing and I then tell Edward who actually does the cooking (I'm not that daft). -- Judith Lea |
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Nick Maclaren wrote: For the people in that situation (at a wild guess, 30% of the UK), immersion is a complete waste of time. I used to be able to read simple French (e.g. newspapers, popular novels) faster than most French people, and can still read it after a fashion. I can neither speak nor hear it reliably, but can just about communicate. This is not all that rare, and is not always solved by any amount of practice, immersion or torture. Not torture, one would hope, but immersion is the key I'm certain, that and love. My husband is very dyslexic, and at school his French was non existant. He however got a 1st at uni and a master's degree, wrote hundreds of publications and a few books. He lectures and give many conferences around the world, notably in France, annually, and in French. After over 20 years he's been listening to my family twice a year, and me, he has now an amazing grasp for the language but also the nuances, the puns that the French loves so much. He has never studied it, but simply communicated as much as he could. He cannot read nor write French either. Just talk. Les jardiniers sont dotés d'une sensibilité à fleur de pot. |
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In article .com, "La Puce" writes: | | Not torture, one would hope, but immersion is the key I'm certain, that | and love. My husband is very dyslexic, and at school his French was non | existant. He however got a 1st at uni and a master's degree, wrote | hundreds of publications and a few books. He lectures and give many | conferences around the world, notably in France, annually, and in | French. Dyslexia is affected by unrelated neural pathways, and so is completely irrelevant. Yes, immersion is the key in learning the auditory neural pathways, and those get increasingly hard to learn in old age (i.e. after about 5 years old). That is why Chinese is very hard to learn, and a few North American Indian languages effectively impossible. As I said, French is very hard for many/most Germanic speakers, because it depends on acoustic features that are essentially unused in those languages. You may not know that the recognition of basic 'objects' (i.e. shape, pattern and colour for sight, and sounds as in vowels, consonants, animal noises etc.) is largely genetic and developed before birth for sight (and is common to almost all humans), but is learnt after birth for sounds (and is NOT common to all people). But it is so. In particular, if you have not learnt to hear certain sounds by the age of 5 or so, you probably never will - even if you have an early hearing problem that is later corrected. Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
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On 7/2/06 14:24, in article , "Nick
Maclaren" wrote: snip In particular, if you have not learnt to hear certain sounds by the age of 5 or so, you probably never will - even if you have an early hearing problem that is later corrected. I don't know if this is correct but I was told some years ago that the Lycée International won't accept anyone who did not start to learn French by the age of four. This was told me by someone who had been through that system and he said that this was because after that age it is 'impossible' to learn to pronounce French as the French themselves speak it. -- Sacha www.hillhousenursery.co.uk South Devon ) |
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Rusty Hinge 2 wrote: Je suis que Je suis, mai Je ne suis pas que Je suis. Je suis CE que je suis, mais je ne suis pas CE que je NE suis pas. If that's what you want to say :o)) I tend to the 'little bit of grammar and vocabulary, then throw in the deep-end' approach. By this method I learnt quickly, and at school I spoke French quite fluently, gaining 95% for GCE French Oral. I was so surprised to learn last Friday at the parents evening, that my son's French GCSE oral is basically French sentences thrown at him and he only has to say *in English* what it means. He, like his father, his dyslexic, and cannot write to save his life, but mumbles behind his long hair some French 'deep-end approach a la Rusty' I'd imagine, and get away with it anywhere in France with the other teens he encounters. My other son is different. He is very like me, wants to know it all, well, the way it should be, properly, entirely, clearly, in your face and right now. Good lad :o) J'ai forgottenai most de it maintenant innit. Never mind. If we happen to descend to Jenny's house one of these days, I'll hold your hand across the channel, don't worry. |
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"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message ... The message from "JennyC" contains these words: Warning OT :~) I (almost) had an argument with one of our prospective new neighbours (Dordogne) about learning French. She was of the' "one needs to know the grammar before even stating out" whereas I am of the "parrot school of learning" :~ I'd agree with her. In the case of French, a very early basic dose of the declension of common irregular verbs makes the most basic daily understanding, reading and speaking so much easier. It enables the listener to recognise he's just hearing or seeing variations of the same frequently used verb (ai, as, avons, avez , ont, all mean "have"; they also form part of the past tense of regular verbs ). They'll be listed in the early pages of a basic grammar book. Even just recognising (by ear and in print) the forms of etre and avoir gives a massive advantage. If one has that basic grasp of the commonest verb variations, it's then quicker and easier to pick up French by "total immersion" which as you say is the best way to learn a language. Can you get French TV at home? Janet. Yes, and I'm listening to it sometimes........... Jenny |
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"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message ... The message from "Rupert" contains these words: if she really says "one" as the subject then forget the wine:-) Course she does, "on" doesn't carry the same stilted connotation in French that "one" does in English. It's a also a delicate French social courtesy to frame a little correction, or assertion, in the third person, less confrontational than using the first or second. snip Mea Culpa. I just assumed that the neighbour was English and doing a "Oh darling one must get to grips with basics" act. I have been watching too many of those tele programmes with people emigrating, living in communes and running burger bars . |
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On Tue, 07 Feb 2006 14:57:55 +0000
Sacha wrote: On 7/2/06 14:24, in article , "Nick Maclaren" wrote: snip In particular, if you have not learnt to hear certain sounds by the age of 5 or so, you probably never will - even if you have an early hearing problem that is later corrected. I don't know if this is correct but I was told some years ago that the Lycée International won't accept anyone who did not start to learn French by the age of four. This was told me by someone who had been through that system and he said that this was because after that age it is 'impossible' to learn to pronounce French as the French themselves speak it. Gaah! Trying desperately to stay out of this OT stuff, this time! :) I'm not sure which lycée you're referring to, Sacha, but that is certainly not true at any of the Lycées Internationals that I've come across. My kids were at the Lycée Laperouse in San Francisco, which is one of the ecoles homologuées in the network, and they certainly would except non-French speakers up to sixieme; after that French was required but I never heard of a beginning age requirement. We have some Greek/Spanish friends whos kids were in the Lycée International in Palma, they entered later, and it seemed to be a very cosmopolitan student body. This said, I don't doubt that at least to some extent each school can set it's own rules, maybe your acquaintance's school was particular in this respect. The Lycée system is great because if you move a lot, your kids can pick up in a new city basically on the next page of the same textbook. They really do all march in lock-step. And as they are about 40% in English, they turn out perfectly bi-lingual teenagers, bless 'em. Now, off to prepare some of those strange concoctions for dinner! :) (OK, actually I'll probably take some of last years broccoli out of the freezer. There, back on topic.) -E -- Emery Davis You can reply to ecom by removing the well known companies |
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"Sacha" wrote in message id... On 7/2/06 14:24, in article , "Nick Maclaren" wrote: snip In particular, if you have not learnt to hear certain sounds by the age of 5 or so, you probably never will - even if you have an early hearing problem that is later corrected. I don't know if this is correct but I was told some years ago that the Lycée International won't accept anyone who did not start to learn French by the age of four. This was told me by someone who had been through that system and he said that this was because after that age it is 'impossible' to learn to pronounce French as the French themselves speak it. -- Sacha www.hillhousenursery.co.uk South Devon ) I am certain that I recall that or something very similar. There was that Franglais thing (again) which I think was all part of the same pantomine. I thought it was about preserving the purity of the French language but didn't realise it extended down as far as pronounciation. |
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Emery Davis wrote: Now, off to prepare some of those strange concoctions for dinner! :) (OK, actually I'll probably take some of last years broccoli out of the freezer. There, back on topic.) If in doubt saute the lot in butter and garlic - just like the kale I prepared last night. Turned out all fluffy and smooth like mashmallows. Now that's what we call concocting from where I'm from ;o) |
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On 7/2/06 14:00, in article ,
"Rusty Hinge 2" wrote: The message from Sacha contains these words: On 7/2/06 12:26, in article , "Judith Lea" wrote: Yes Janet, you sound just like my husband - my French is great, everyone hangs on to my every word - they just stare at me. My husband then explains (in a restaurant) that I have just asked for Duck jam instead of confit d'canard. This sounds like one of my better gaffes in Italian - hot, bothered and beleaguered by my children, I was doing some food shopping. I asked the startled shopkeeper and his heavily pregnant wife if I could have 'sei pommerigi' instead of 'sei pommodori' - six afternoons, instead of six tomatoes. Once she realised I was not inviting her husband into a career as a gigolo, the wife laughed so much I thought she was going to give birth then and there! And my sister while at the University of Pisa, asking for 'finoccio' - take your pick, either fennel or a gay bloke. She very soon learnt to point to suggestively shaped vegetables too, and ask for half a kilo of those, and three of those, and... One needs to watch out when asking for 'una fica', (fig) too.... I thought farfalle were gay men but now I think I'm thinking of mariposa which is Spanish and I don't even speak Spanish! (Both are butterflies) My mother outlaw was Italian so from my ex I learned a tiny smattering of Italian and it was enough to finally tell a very rude and unpleasant ski-lift attendant who had been shouting and whinging and bossing everyone about for a week, to "**** off", after he'd tried to push one of my children into place. It's extremely rare for me to use such language but it was worth it to see the look of astonishment on his dropped jawed face and the improvement in his behaviour was astounding! The French waitress was also rude in that she corrected me three times when I asked for the desert menu, it was amusing the first time she stressed the pronunciation; and I then tried to say it as she said it, she repeated it again, in a louder voice, and again I tried but when she repeated it to me, in a very loud voice, for the third time, I retorted with just bring me the ****** menu please (in my best French of course). After all I had gone there to eat not to have a French lesson! VERY rude! But I think that a smattering of the basics and then as much chat as you can get your hands on is a very good way to learn a language. If you have just a start in the verbs and how to ask for a few things in shops etc., it's remarkable how quickly you can build on that. Some friends of mine moved to France several years ago and spoke what was really very basic school French. They made a deliberate choice to live where there were no foreigners and within a year they had made almost entirely French friends and were yakking away nineteen to the dozen. It's loike thet hair in Naaaaarfk, thet it is. Dew yew troy tew foller some squit sometimes and yer lorst. Ray said he had someone working for him who was from Suffolk and he used to say of the Norfolkians "'e's so thick 'e doan know its rainin' 'til 'e sees it splashin' on the duckpond" ;-) -- Sacha www.hillhousenursery.co.uk South Devon ) |
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Nick Maclaren writes
In particular, if you have not learnt to hear certain sounds by the age of 5 or so, you probably never will - even if you have an early hearing problem that is later corrected. That matches my experience. A relative of mine had an early hearing problem, corrected when he was four, but continues to have speech difficulties consistent with an inability to distinguish between sounds that the rest of us can differentiate with ease. -- Kay |
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Sacha wrote: When my half French nieces lived in Thailand, they went to the Ecole deux langues (if I remember that name correctly) Ecole de Langue. |
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Sacha wrote: When my half French nieces lived in Thailand, they went to the Ecole deux langues (if I remember that name correctly) Ecole de Langues. |
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On 7 Feb 2006 09:37:23 -0800
"La Puce" wrote: Sacha wrote: When my half French nieces lived in Thailand, they went to the Ecole deux langues (if I remember that name correctly) Ecole de Langue. umm, I am diffident about correcting you, but wouldn't it be "ecole bilingue?" That is, a school taught in deux langues, as it were. -E -- Emery Davis You can reply to ecom by removing the well known companies |
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On Tue, 07 Feb 2006 17:16:29 +0000
Sacha wrote: On 7/2/06 16:32, in article , "Emery Davis" wrote: [] This said, I don't doubt that at least to some extent each school can set it's own rules, maybe your acquaintance's school was particular in this respect. Could be, Emery. He was Australian but he was a bit of a conceited wind up merchant so for all I know, it was a load of codswallop. Well, sounds like he graduated from French high school! :) The Lycée system is great because if you move a lot, your kids can pick up in a new city basically on the next page of the same textbook. They really do all march in lock-step. And as they are about 40% in English, they turn out perfectly bi-lingual teenagers, bless 'em. It sounds excellent, IMO, though I have no experience of it myself. When my half French nieces lived in Thailand, they went to the Ecole deux langues (if I remember that name correctly) and were perfectly suited, being bilingual to start with. They speak both French and English so well that they can start a sentence in one language and finish it in the other and of course, their accents are perfect in both - sickening. ;-) The international system is indeed excellent, usually better than the schools here, with a few notable exceptions. I'm sad to say I've had to take my kids out of the local village school this fall, where they were 3 years together in a class (which has some advantages), due to the suicide of the headmaster. Anyway my kids now miss no opportunity to correct my accent. And speak remarkably little franglais, considering how much my wife and I do... The little, uh, darlings. :) Now, off to prepare some of those strange concoctions for dinner! :) (OK, actually I'll probably take some of last years broccoli out of the freezer. There, back on topic.) -E Bravo! ;-) I did get to make it a little concocting, by retrieving a bag of frozen cepes from this fall too. It was an incredible mushroom bounty this year, no one had ever seen the like of it. We were cutting 5 kilos of cepes (boletus ed.) in 20 minutes, all within 200 yards of the house! Went on like that for weeks. -E -- Emery Davis You can reply to ecom by removing the well known companies |
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Emery Davis wrote: umm, I am diffident about correcting you, but wouldn't it be "ecole bilingue?" That is, a school taught in deux langues, as it were. Ecole de langues (avec un 's' as my other post - had forgotten to add ;) But no, it's either 'Ecole bilingue' indeed or 'Ecole de Langues', shool of languages. Ecole deux langues doesn't exist in Thailand. |
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On Tue, 07 Feb 2006 17:27:25 +0100
Martin wrote: On Tue, 7 Feb 2006 16:47:35 +0100, "JennyC" wrote: [] Yes, and I'm listening to it sometimes........... ... watch it with the French subtitles on. Easy with France 2, more difficult with TV5. At least you will improve your reading ability. :-) Television is a good way, although, better without subtitles. When I first moved to France in '90 I determined that I should watch a show that was so plotless that I would be able to follow even with my quite limited French. Starsky and Hutch was on daily -- Starzky et Ootch -- so after several weeks I was equipped to commit a hold-up: "Haut les mains!" Or to do police work, I suppose. :) On the subject of silly mistakes made in a second language, I have two stories that are a bit ribald. The first from my french cousin, who emigrated to the States after the war having married a GI. They were at a "dry" dance, that is, no alcohol. She asked her new husband when they could get a drink, he told her "at intermission." Later she was dancing with another fellow, and becoming overheated came out with this broken gem: "When we do intercourse?" The gentleman replied, "I think we'll find your husband now..." My own experience was equally embarrassing. Newly arrived, we needed a whisk. Determined to exploit Paris to the fullest, off we went to the fine kitchen supply store Delerhin for the purchase. Making the effort, I consulted the dictionary, and armed (so I thought) with the local jargon for whisk, we sallied forth. Faced with the helpful salesman inside the door of the place, I stammered my much rehearsed sentence, "Bonjour Monsieur, j'ai besoin d'une verge." The fellow glanced over at my wife, then regarded me without expression. I had just literally said "Hello, I need a penis." Honest to God. His response, deadpan, was "You'll have to see my colleague for that item." All of which shows, television is bad for you. :) And dictionaries, too. Hmm, off to watch Eastenders... -E -- Emery Davis You can reply to ecom by removing the well known companies |
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Emery Davis wrote: Starzky et Ootch -- so after several weeks I was equipped to commit a hold-up: "Haut les mains!" Or to do police work, I suppose. :) :o) When I first discovered the true names of the american/english films I watch as a kid, it amused me how silly the translations where. For examples, 'Charlie's Angels' being 'Drole De Dames' and 'The Avengers' being 'Chapeau Melon et Bottes de Cuir'. You'd think they'd have found something snappier! On the subject of silly mistakes made in a second language, (snip) My husband at an early stage of his French progress, not only found kissing my uncle a very difficult thing to do but came up once by saying 'laissez moi vous introduire ...' for saying 'let me introduce you'. Many followed, but like jokes, I forget. |
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Nick Maclaren wrote:
[...] As I said, French is very hard for many/most Germanic speakers, because it depends on acoustic features that are essentially unused in those languages. You may not know that the recognition of basic 'objects' (i.e. shape, pattern and colour for sight, and sounds as in vowels, consonants, animal noises etc.) is largely genetic and developed before birth for sight (and is common to almost all humans), but is learnt after birth for sounds (and is NOT common to all people). But it is so. In particular, if you have not learnt to hear certain sounds by the age of 5 or so, you probably never will - even if you have an early hearing problem that is later corrected. Well, up to a point, Lord Copper. Many people have a better talent for mimicry _and_ picking out sounds than they necessarily recognise. I'd never discourage an adult learner on those grounds. Among commoner European languages, I absolutely agree that French is the toughie. But it can be done. French vowels are a bloody sight easier than Polish consonants! I started French only medium-early, at nine, under a retired colonel whose Hindi-Urdu was pretty shit-hot as far as we could judge, but whose Latin accent was totally un-Romance, and whose French accent fell a long way short, as I later discovered when I moved on to better-qualified teachers at thirteen. But when I gained fluency as a young man, non-French people thought I was French, and the French couldn't quite place me, usually plumping for Belgian: that's a perfectly achievable and honorable target. -- Mike. |
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Mike Lyle wrote: Well, up to a point, Lord Copper. Many people have a better talent for mimicry _and_ picking out sounds than they necessarily recognise. I'd never discourage an adult learner on those grounds. Among commoner European languages, I absolutely agree that French is the toughie. But it can be done. French vowels are a bloody sight easier than Polish consonants! I know a lot of people who find the converse is true - the difficulty of Polish consonants is usually overstated. I started French only medium-early, at nine, under a retired colonel whose Hindi-Urdu was pretty shit-hot as far as we could judge, but whose Latin accent was totally un-Romance, and whose French accent fell a long way short, as I later discovered when I moved on to better-qualified teachers at thirteen. But when I gained fluency as a young man, non-French people thought I was French, and the French couldn't quite place me, usually plumping for Belgian: that's a perfectly achievable and honorable target. It's not achievable for a higher proportion of the population than you realise - and is certainly not for me. The only time that I have ever been taken for a French speaker was by an old Breton woman - and that was a long time ago. Neither of us was at all happy in our only common language :-) Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
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from "Mike Lyle" contains these words: I started French only medium-early, at nine, under a retired colonel whose Hindi-Urdu was pretty shit-hot as far as we could judge, but whose Latin accent was totally un-Romance, and whose French accent fell a long way short, as I later discovered when I moved on to better-qualified teachers at thirteen. LOL. We had a French teacher who, even beginners couldn't help noticing, spoke French with a very heavy Welsh accent. Janet |
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Nick Maclaren wrote: I know a lot of people who find the converse is true - the difficulty of Polish consonants is usually overstated. I started French only medium-early, at nine, under a retired colonel whose Hindi-Urdu was pretty shit-hot as far as we could judge, but whose Latin accent was totally un-Romance, and whose French accent fell a long way short, as I later discovered when I moved on to better-qualified teachers at thirteen. But when I gained fluency as a young man, non-French people thought I was French, and the French couldn't quite place me, usually plumping for Belgian: that's a perfectly achievable and honorable target. What is interesting is that I can repeat Chinese words perfectly well because the French sounds already have 'en', 'on', 'ai', 'eu' and I sometime wonder if I could learn it. The idea of a new alphabet, culture etc. is attracting. However, I cannot do German. |
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from "La Puce" contains these words: Je suis que Je suis, mai Je ne suis pas que Je suis. Je suis CE que je suis, mais je ne suis pas CE que je NE suis pas. If that's what you want to say :o)) Not as I was taught it as I remember (though it was dredged-up from around 1954) - the donkey-driver's tag-line. (I am what I am, but I'm not what I follow) -- Rusty Direct reply to: horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co period uk Separator in search of a sig |
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from "La Puce" contains these words: /coup de ciseaux/ I was so surprised to learn last Friday at the parents evening, that my son's French GCSE oral is basically French sentences thrown at him and he only has to say *in English* what it means. He, like his father, his dyslexic, and cannot write to save his life, but mumbles behind his long hair some French 'deep-end approach a la Rusty' I'd imagine, and get away with it anywhere in France with the other teens he encounters. My other son is different. He is very like me, wants to know it all, well, the way it should be, properly, entirely, clearly, in your face and right now. Good lad :o) I had to hold a conversation with one of the examiners (IIRC there were three of them) and describe a picture in words. J'ai forgottenai most de it maintenant innit. Mind you, if my memory is at all elastic, it'll come back on the rebound. Never mind. If we happen to descend to Jenny's house one of these days, I'll hold your hand across the channel, don't worry. Ah - booze-cruise with an ulterior motive? -- Rusty Direct reply to: horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co period uk Separator in search of a sig |
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from Emery Davis contains these words: I'm not sure which lycée Lyc (Capital A-dieresis/copyright) e Surely you mean Lycée? -- Rusty Direct reply to: horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co period uk Separator in search of a sig |
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from Sacha contains these words: Ray said he had someone working for him who was from Suffolk and he used to say of the Norfolkians "'e's so thick 'e doan know its rainin' 'til 'e sees it splashin' on the duckpond" ;-) Yiss, they dun't call it Silly Suffolk for nuthin'. -- Rusty Direct reply to: horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co period uk Separator in search of a sig |
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