K wrote in
:

michael adams writes
Obviously the fate of Keith Richard and Brain Jones means nothing to
you.

Keith Richard was was doubtless encouraged to climb trees as lad.

As result he fell out of a tree last week, banged his head and is
currently undergoing a series of operations to remove blood clots from
his brain.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/4983890.stm

While as is well known Brian Jones died in his own swimming pool.

Thus pointing up the danger of all such water features in the garden
even for mature adults.

Clearly we should all avoid any activity which has been known to cause
death or serious injury.

But but but simply sitting down and doing nothing is
known to be unhealthy. So we can't safely do anything
and we can't safely do nothing.

scots accent
We're dooooomed, I tell ye, doooomed, doomed
/scots accent

In article ,
Janet Baraclough writes:
|
| You have snipped a considerable amount of the context.
|
| No. I quoted your post in full, excluding only "regards, Nick Maclaren".

I should have said that you quoted out of context, which would have
been more accurate. I was responding to a posting that was responding
to another one.

| ... You cannot TRAIN an infant to develop mature
| breath response; any more than you can TRAIN an 8 week old baby to
| walk. Their brain doesn't reach that stage until later.

Which is, of course, why infants can't be taught to swim.

Don't be silly. Depending on the child, there will be an age below
which appropriate reflexes can't be learnt, but it is far younger than
you think it is. And, in any case, those reflexes have to be learnt;
they don't develop automatically. A large part of teaching people to
swim is precisely teaching those reflexes, and adult non-swimmers often
drown for exactly the same reasons as infants.

| We're talking here about pre-school children. You could drop your 3
| yr old daughter in the pond every day for a week; she might very well
| develop a serious dislike of the pond, water or her father, but she
| would still have no clue that the danger associated with water was
| drowning.

I long ago came to the conclusion that most children were much more
intelligent than their parents. If a child can't learn to avoid
unpleasant experiences, and which instructions from a parent are to
be obeyed and which may be ignored, by the age of three, then one or the
other needs psychiatric help.

| So why
| are you assuming that not having a pond will reduce the chances of a
| child drowning before adulthood?
|
| It will certainly reduce the child's chance of drowning in its own
| garden, which is the point of the discussion.

Well, an even semi-rational person would consider whether it would reduce
the overall risk, and I usually give people credit for being at least
that intelligent.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In message .com,
Sacha writes

H Ryder wrote:
Our children had great fun with our pond which we had a cover made for. The
cover was simply strong 2" wire mesh on a frame with a padlocked trap door
in it so we could get access. It was reinforced so I could jump on it. Kids
loved it and spent hours "fishing". Mesh did not seem to bother wildlife at
all. We just rang around local metal workers describing what we wanted until
we got a reasonable (£150) quote.

Thinking of that, I knew I'd something advertised recently and I did a
quick Google and found this. It looks excellent:
http://www.pondsafety.com/

As pond owner, I looked at the site and sent for their brochure. It
looks as though you can actually stand on the product - looks like
walking on water! If that is the case, it would be useful not only for
safety but for maintaining parts of the pond that have awkward access.
Thanks.
--
June Hughes

In article ,
June Hughes writes:
|
| As pond owner, I looked at the site and sent for their brochure. It
| looks as though you can actually stand on the product - looks like
| walking on water! If that is the case, it would be useful not only for
| safety but for maintaining parts of the pond that have awkward access.

Do be a bit careful, though. I have seen young children, clearly
accustomed to a pond with such a grille, try to walk out onto an
open water tank covered with chicken wire (e.g. to protect a holding
tank for fish from seagulls). The latter are quite commonly protected
only by a lowish fence, because nobody would be stupid enough to try
to walk on chicken wire, right?


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

"K" wrote in message
...
michael adams writes
Obviously the fate of Keith Richard and Brain Jones means nothing to
you.

Keith Richard was was doubtless encouraged to climb trees as lad.

As result he fell out of a tree last week, banged his head and is
currently undergoing a series of operations to remove blood clots from
his brain.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/4983890.stm

While as is well known Brian Jones died in his own swimming pool.

Thus pointing up the danger of all such water features in the garden
even for mature adults.

Clearly we should all avoid any activity which has been known to cause
death or serious injury.

Said with tongue in cheek (if not dangerous!), no doubt. Which activities
haven't been known to cause death or serious injury?

June Hughes wrote:
In message .com,
Sacha writes

H Ryder wrote:
Our children had great fun with our pond which we had a cover made for.. The
cover was simply strong 2" wire mesh on a frame with a padlocked trap door
in it so we could get access. It was reinforced so I could jump on it.Kids
loved it and spent hours "fishing". Mesh did not seem to bother wildlife at
all. We just rang around local metal workers describing what we wanteduntil
we got a reasonable (£150) quote.

Thinking of that, I knew I'd something advertised recently and I did a
quick Google and found this. It looks excellent:
http://www.pondsafety.com/

As pond owner, I looked at the site and sent for their brochure. It
looks as though you can actually stand on the product - looks like
walking on water! If that is the case, it would be useful not only for
safety but for maintaining parts of the pond that have awkward access.
Thanks.
--
From the site, it looks like a good product and could put a lot of
minds at rest. Could you let us know if it works with pond liners as
well as with rigid plastic ponds? I rather doubt that but it would be
useful information to people here who are considering installing a
pond.
--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon

In message , Nick Maclaren
writes

In article ,
June Hughes writes:
|
| As pond owner, I looked at the site and sent for their brochure. It
| looks as though you can actually stand on the product - looks like
| walking on water! If that is the case, it would be useful not only for
| safety but for maintaining parts of the pond that have awkward access.

Do be a bit careful, though. I have seen young children, clearly
accustomed to a pond with such a grille, try to walk out onto an
open water tank covered with chicken wire (e.g. to protect a holding
tank for fish from seagulls). The latter are quite commonly protected
only by a lowish fence, because nobody would be stupid enough to try
to walk on chicken wire, right?


Thanks Nick. No real problems with children - sprog is almost 18
However, the brochure for this actually shows a full-grown man standing
on the grid, which would help me no end in reaching some of our marginal
plants, which go crazy in late spring.
--
June Hughes

"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...

In article ,
"michael adams" writes:
|
| It isn't. I happen to be speaking from personal observation from
| 30 and more years ago. Not immediate family but I'm not prepared
| to discuss details.

And I can speak from personal experience where a couple blamed
themselves completely irrationally for the loss of a child, for
precisely that reason. I am not basing my statements on that alone.

....

What I'm talking about, is the possible reaction to the loss of
a child under any circumstances. More especially in circumstances
where a couple had trouble in conceiving in the first place.
It's impossible to know people's personal circumstances in every
case - as they don't necessarily shout this from the rooftops.
For some people the loss of a small child under any circumstances
can be totally devastating.

Again you say blaming themselves was completely "irrational".
People blaming themselves for a relative's death is quite
a common occurrence, not only in suicides either. There are
various suggestions as why this should be the case, but I'm
surprised you didn't know this.

None of these reactions are either rational or irrational.
They're emotional reactions driven by hormones over which
people have no control. Essential defence mechanisms the
purposes of which are not always fully understood. The fact
that fears are the most easily manipulated of such emotions
is maybe just an unfortunate consequence of the fact that
fear responses presumably have the most survival value.

....



| A totally rational person, as you claim to be, would surely want
| to ask themselves, why it should be right now that people are
| being made subject to these irrational fears about the
| welfare of their children ? Who is propagating these particular
| myths, and why ?

Your are seriously deluded. I have never claimed to be completely
rational.

| That would be a useful approach.

And has little to do with gardening.

| There are also plenty of studies about attitudes to danger,
| etc which might usefully be cited.

Preferably not here.

| But instead, you yourself are similarly voicing inarticulate
| irrational fears. You see these things as undesirable - as you
| see them as a threat to some golden age of tree climbing, pond
| visiting, school walking, children.

Crap. I am basing them on observation of my children's friends, where
a significant number were so badly cocooned in cotton wool that they
were unable to judge risks or handle the most trivial dangers at the
age of 14. Nobody rational expects a child of 14 to be able to do those
WELL, but it is horrifying that they were completely unable to.

....

Nowadays for whatever reason we live in a "blame culture" and not
one necessarily driven IMO, by simply by compensation claims as some
have suggested. There's more to a "blame culture" than simply
"compensation culture" IMO. Whenever something bad happens people
"demand an explanation", they "want to know who was responsible".
Etc. etc. etc. Because everything bad that happens is somebody's fault.
Allegedly. The fact that such demands are very often totally unreasonable,
to say the least, is neither here nor there. The fact is that such a
culture exists. And so in such circumstances it seems reasonable to assume
that those in positions of responsibility* including parents will come
under more self-imposed, maybe subconscious pressure to avoid situations
where they themselves can be blamed for anything.

A failure to recognise this possibility, as in your case, may indeed
invoke an irrational response.


* Excepting politicans. But then modern representative democracy so
evolved - in comparison with Classical models - so as to allow elected
representataives i.e politician to avoid responsibilty for their mistakes
by blaming it on the electorate. If politicians themselved had to shoulder
blame for anything - other than offering token resignations when
unavoidable -
then its doubtful IMO if anyone with any sense would want to stand for
office at all.

....


As anyone with a clue will know, there is no way that I regard the
past as a golden age. But, as Thurber said, you may as fell fall flat
on your face as lean too far over backwards.


Edmund Burke, and now James Thurber. There really is no stopping you at
times is there ?

I'll bet you looked that one up again first though, just to make sure.


michael adams

....






Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

"K" wrote in message
...
michael adams writes

"K" wrote in message
...
michael adams writes
Obviously the fate of Keith Richard and Brain Jones means nothing to
you.

Keith Richard was was doubtless encouraged to climb trees as lad.

As result he fell out of a tree last week, banged his head and is
currently undergoing a series of operations to remove blood clots from
his brain.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/4983890.stm

While as is well known Brian Jones died in his own swimming pool.

Thus pointing up the danger of all such water features in the garden
even for mature adults.

Clearly we should all avoid any activity which has been known to cause
death or serious injury.
--

Swimming pools and climbing trees aren't a good idea if you're stoned
out of your mind.

I'm sorry, I misunderstood you - I thought you were bringing these
examples up as an argument for why small children should be kept away
from such dangers as ponds, trees and swimming pools.

....

As Nick had mentioned climbing trees, I only mentioned those two
examples in an attempt to lighten things up a bit, that's all.
As I already implied, I always prefer to err on the side of caution
when offering people advice about almost anything, in any case. Let
alone where the safety of their own children might be involved.

michael adams

....




--
Kay

"Martin" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 11 May 2006 21:35:49 +0200, "JennyC"
wrote:


Holland has masses of open water, canals, ditches, ponds, lakes etc etc
Children are ALL supposed to take swimming lessons before they are 5

and as a result get lots of ear problems
--

Martin


Eh ?



michael adams

....

michael adams writes


As Nick had mentioned climbing trees, I only mentioned those two
examples in an attempt to lighten things up a bit, that's all.
As I already implied, I always prefer to err on the side of caution
when offering people advice about almost anything, in any case. Let
alone where the safety of their own children might be involved.

I always take things far too literally!
--
Kay

Janet Baraclough muttered:

Even if you do that, it will not magically change the infant breath
response. It will not protect a small infant from drowning the next time
it falls into the pond alone. A fall from a tree that does not result in
a broken leg, is no guarantee of safe landing next time.

So there are even worse garden dangers than hedgehog turds eh?