Sloes/damsons (slightly OT)
 

Might damsons trees in a hedgerow have the odd thorn or two? This morning we
picked what we think are fruits -too -big to- be -sloes but there were a few
long thorns on some of the branches. I plan to jam them but if they are
sloes they may not yet be sweet enough so they may have to be "ginned"
instead!

Sue W.
--
Derby, England.

Don't try to email me using "REPLY" as the email address is NoSpam. Our
email address is "thewoodies2 at ntlworld dot com"

Sloes/damsons (slightly OT)
 

In article ,
"Sue" writes:
|
| Might damsons trees in a hedgerow have the odd thorn or two? This morning we
| picked what we think are fruits -too -big to- be -sloes but there were a few
| long thorns on some of the branches. I plan to jam them but if they are
| sloes they may not yet be sweet enough so they may have to be "ginned"
| instead!

Yes, but I am afraid that you are confused. They are likely to be
bullaces - the 'wild' damson (and ancestor of modern plums) - probably
introduced by the neolithic farmers. But there is no need for fruit
to be sweet to be good for jam - both sloes and Chaenomeles make very
good jam, and you can make good jam with unripe fruit.

Equally well, you can make a good gin cordial with bullaces and
suitable damsons, though I haven't done it myself.

Or cheese, which I have, and chutney, which my wife has :-)


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Sloes/damsons (slightly OT)
 

In article ,
says...

In article ,
"Sue" writes:
|
| Might damsons trees in a hedgerow have the odd thorn or two? This morning we
| picked what we think are fruits -too -big to- be -sloes but there were a few
| long thorns on some of the branches. I plan to jam them but if they are
| sloes they may not yet be sweet enough so they may have to be "ginned"
| instead!

Yes, but I am afraid that you are confused. They are likely to be
bullaces - the 'wild' damson (and ancestor of modern plums) - probably
introduced by the neolithic farmers. But there is no need for fruit
to be sweet to be good for jam - both sloes and Chaenomeles make very
good jam, and you can make good jam with unripe fruit.

Equally well, you can make a good gin cordial with bullaces and
suitable damsons, though I haven't done it myself.

Or cheese, which I have, and chutney, which my wife has :-)


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.


Nick - are these sloes? I've had a look at some images on Google and
think they are. We've got several of these shrubs in the hedgerow around
our property, laden with fruit. I'd like to have a go at a jam recipe
but a second opinion would be good before discovering I've made woody
nightshade jam or some such poison!

Photos:

A sloe bush?

http://www.avisoft.co.uk/Hpim5809a.jpg

Close up including my hand for scale:

http://www.avisoft.co.uk/Hpim5810b.jpg

--
David in Normandy.
(The free MicroPlanet Gravity newsreader is great for eliminating
rubbish and cross-posts)

Sloes/damsons (slightly OT)
 

In article ,
says...
In article ,
says...

In article ,
"Sue" writes:
|
| Might damsons trees in a hedgerow have the odd thorn or two? This morning we
| picked what we think are fruits -too -big to- be -sloes but there were a few
| long thorns on some of the branches. I plan to jam them but if they are
| sloes they may not yet be sweet enough so they may have to be "ginned"
| instead!

Yes, but I am afraid that you are confused. They are likely to be
bullaces - the 'wild' damson (and ancestor of modern plums) - probably
introduced by the neolithic farmers. But there is no need for fruit
to be sweet to be good for jam - both sloes and Chaenomeles make very
good jam, and you can make good jam with unripe fruit.

Equally well, you can make a good gin cordial with bullaces and
suitable damsons, though I haven't done it myself.

Or cheese, which I have, and chutney, which my wife has :-)


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.


Nick - are these sloes? I've had a look at some images on Google and
think they are. We've got several of these shrubs in the hedgerow around
our property, laden with fruit. I'd like to have a go at a jam recipe
but a second opinion would be good before discovering I've made woody
nightshade jam or some such poison!

Photos:

A sloe bush?

http://www.avisoft.co.uk/Hpim5809a.jpg

Close up including my hand for scale:

http://www.avisoft.co.uk/Hpim5810b.jpg


Sorry, I mucked up the links:

http://www.avisoft.co.uk/Photos/Hpim5809a.jpg

http://www.avisoft.co.uk/Photos/Hpim5810b.jpg

--
David in Normandy.
(The free MicroPlanet Gravity newsreader is great for eliminating
rubbish and cross-posts)

Sloes/damsons (slightly OT)
 

--
Derby, England.

Don't try to email me using "REPLY" as the email address is NoSpam. Our
email address is "thewoodies2 at ntlworld dot com"


"David in Normandy" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...
In article ,
says...

In article ,
"Sue" writes:
|
| Might damsons trees in a hedgerow have the odd thorn or two? This
morning we
| picked what we think are fruits -too -big to- be -sloes but there
were a few
| long thorns on some of the branches. I plan to jam them but if they
are
| sloes they may not yet be sweet enough so they may have to be
"ginned"
| instead!

Yes, but I am afraid that you are confused. They are likely to be
bullaces - the 'wild' damson (and ancestor of modern plums) - probably
introduced by the neolithic farmers.

Regards,
Nick Maclaren

I wondered about bullace but isn't a bullace more of a greeny colour?
(outside I mean). I am just about to jam them now anyway.

Sue W.

Sue W.

Sloes/damsons (slightly OT)
 

"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...

In article ,
"Sue" writes:
|

Equally well, you can make a good gin cordial with bullaces and
suitable damsons, though I haven't done it myself.

When I were a lad, like, my grandparents would send me out to pick sloes in
the hedgerows around the village. It was always cold and miserable and I
hated the job. One year, I found what I thought were large sloes and thus
filled the basket much quicker. They wouldn't use them but gave them to an
uncle who reckoned that they made the best "sloe" gin he'd ever had. They
were probably bullaces.

I also had to help make the liqueur which was another chore since GF made a
dozen bottles and GM mad another dozen that GF didn't kmow about. Each sloe
had to be pricked. BTW, they rarely drank it but gave it away as gifts.
Graham.

Sloes/damsons (slightly OT)
 

In article ,
Jennifer Sparkes writes:
| The message
| from "Sue" contains these words:
|
| I wondered about bullace but isn't a bullace more of a greeny colour?
| (outside I mean). I am just about to jam them now anyway.
|
| IIRC this came up this time last year and surprised me.
|
| If you look at Bullace in Google Images they show both colours ...

That would figure. Clapham, Tutin and Warberg says that they are usually
blue-black or purple - with the implication that they sometimes aren't.
As they are ancestral to all modern plums (including greengages etc.), it
isn't surprising if they have a similar range of colours.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Sloes/damsons (slightly OT)
 

In article ,
David in Normandy writes:
|
| Nick - are these sloes? I've had a look at some images on Google and
| think they are. We've got several of these shrubs in the hedgerow around
| our property, laden with fruit. I'd like to have a go at a jam recipe
| but a second opinion would be good before discovering I've made woody
| nightshade jam or some such poison!
|
| http://www.avisoft.co.uk/Photos/Hpim5809a.jpg
|
| http://www.avisoft.co.uk/Photos/Hpim5810b.jpg

Yup. To check, the stone will be obviously plum-like, with a kernel
with a strong bitter almond flavour (don't eat too many) and the flesh
plum-like and greenish. The taste will screw your mouth up.

There aren't any plants I know of other than other Prunus species that
you can confuse them with, which have naturalised themselves in the UK.
Just remember to avoid the laurels, not to eat too many kernels, and
you are quite safe. The fruit structure of that section of Prunus is
very distinctive, and can be confused only with some tropical fruits.
And those leaves are exactly right.

I advise making jelly - removing sloe stones is hell. Also, use 50/50
apple and sloe juice (or even 75/25), as pure sloe jelly is too fierce
even for me. Taste the juice once you have extracted it.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Sloes/damsons (slightly OT)
 

In article ,
says...

In article ,
David in Normandy writes:
|
| Nick - are these sloes? I've had a look at some images on Google and
| think they are. We've got several of these shrubs in the hedgerow around
| our property, laden with fruit. I'd like to have a go at a jam recipe
| but a second opinion would be good before discovering I've made woody
| nightshade jam or some such poison!
|
| http://www.avisoft.co.uk/Photos/Hpim5809a.jpg
|
| http://www.avisoft.co.uk/Photos/Hpim5810b.jpg

Yup. To check, the stone will be obviously plum-like, with a kernel
with a strong bitter almond flavour (don't eat too many) and the flesh
plum-like and greenish. The taste will screw your mouth up.

There aren't any plants I know of other than other Prunus species that
you can confuse them with, which have naturalised themselves in the UK.
Just remember to avoid the laurels, not to eat too many kernels, and
you are quite safe. The fruit structure of that section of Prunus is
very distinctive, and can be confused only with some tropical fruits.
And those leaves are exactly right.

I advise making jelly - removing sloe stones is hell. Also, use 50/50
apple and sloe juice (or even 75/25), as pure sloe jelly is too fierce
even for me. Taste the juice once you have extracted it.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.


Thanks Nick. I've just eaten a few berries and yes they are quite bitter
but with a definite plum taste / texture. Crunching a kernel I could
also definitely taste marzipan/almond. So it looks like a 100% match to
your description.

My mouth is still quite dry now, several minutes after eating them. They
are quite moorish in a strange savoury sort of way.

So it just leaves the question of whether to pick them now or let them
ripen a bit more. They seem "nearly" ripe being quite flesh but they
resist being pulled. I guess leaving them longer would probably mean the
birds eating them first.
--
David in Normandy.
(The free MicroPlanet Gravity newsreader is great for eliminating
rubbish and cross-posts)

Sloes/damsons (slightly OT)
 

In article ,
David in Normandy writes:
|
| Thanks Nick. I've just eaten a few berries and yes they are quite bitter
| but with a definite plum taste / texture. Crunching a kernel I could
| also definitely taste marzipan/almond. So it looks like a 100% match to
| your description.
|
| My mouth is still quite dry now, several minutes after eating them. They
| are quite moorish in a strange savoury sort of way.

They have that effect - now join the very select club of people who like
to eat sloes raw :-)

| So it just leaves the question of whether to pick them now or let them
| ripen a bit more. They seem "nearly" ripe being quite flesh but they
| resist being pulled. I guess leaving them longer would probably mean the
| birds eating them first.

Maybe. The birds typically don't go for them until quite late, as
they don't contain much carbohydrate. I would pick them as and when
convenient - traditionally, they were left until the first frost,
but that isn't essential.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Sloes/damsons (slightly OT)
 

In article ,
says...
The message
from "Sue" contains these words:

I wondered about bullace but isn't a bullace more of a greeny colour?
(outside I mean). I am just about to jam them now anyway.

IIRC this came up this time last year and surprised me.

If you look at Bullace in Google Images they show both colours ...

HTH ... Jennifer

Someone last year posted a link to a site with dozens of varieties of
bullace and damsons and the various species involved, needless to say I
can not now remember what I did with it!

--
Charlie Pridham, Gardening in Cornwall
www.roselandhouse.co.uk
Holders of national collections of Clematis viticella cultivars and
Lapageria rosea

Sloes/damsons (slightly OT)
 

In article
Charlie Pridham writes:
| In article ,
| says...
| The message
| from "Sue" contains these words:
|
| I wondered about bullace but isn't a bullace more of a greeny colour?
| (outside I mean). I am just about to jam them now anyway.
|
| IIRC this came up this time last year and surprised me.
|
| If you look at Bullace in Google Images they show both colours ...
|
| Someone last year posted a link to a site with dozens of varieties of
| bullace and damsons and the various species involved, needless to say I
| can not now remember what I did with it!

Ah! Looking on Google has reminded me of the situation. The term
"bullace" is used for the wild or naturalised plum that was probably
introduced to Europe by the neolithic farmers, but it is ALSO used
for garden varieties of what is effectively a green damson (i.e.
essentially a small, strongly flavoured greengage).

Hence the confusion :-)

Anyway, all varieties are edible and excellent ....


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Sloes/damsons (slightly OT)
 

On 23 Sep, 18:12, (Nick Maclaren) wrote:
In article ,
David in Normandy writes:
|
| Thanks Nick. I've just eaten a few berries and yes they are quite bitter
| but with a definite plum taste / texture. Crunching a kernel I could
| also definitely taste marzipan/almond. So it looks like a 100% match to
| your description.
|
| My mouth is still quite dry now, several minutes after eating them. They
| are quite moorish in a strange savoury sort of way.

They have that effect - now join the very select club of people who like
to eat sloes raw :-)

| So it just leaves the question of whether to pick them now or let them
| ripen a bit more. They seem "nearly" ripe being quite flesh but they
| resist being pulled. I guess leaving them longer would probably mean the
| birds eating them first.

Maybe. The birds typically don't go for them until quite late, as
they don't contain much carbohydrate. I would pick them as and when
convenient - traditionally, they were left until the first frost,
but that isn't essential.

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Pick them now if they are just slightly fleshy feeling - they don't
just fall off the bushes like plums or apples, you have to actually
pick them. I get mine near Melrose and I've never in 30 years seen
them so good.

On making sloe gin, the accepted technique in this day and age is to
put them in the freezer and let them unthaw slowly - that breaks the
skins and enables the juice extraction. If you are prepared to pick
enough (2 of us picked over a dozen pounds in under an hour the other
day), a good wine can be made with sloes - a bit of extra fruit is
required to enhance to the flavour. The recipe I found starts off
with 60 lbs of sloes !!

Rob

Sloes/damsons (slightly OT)
 

In article . com,
Rob G writes:
|
| On making sloe gin, the accepted technique in this day and age is to
| put them in the freezer and let them unthaw slowly - that breaks the
| skins and enables the juice extraction.

Or just don't bother. Given a reasonable passage of time, the gin
will absorb the juice without needing to do anything. But slicing
them with a knife or freezing them certainly speeds things up.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Sloes/damsons (slightly OT)
 

"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...

In article ,
"Sue" writes:
|
| Might damsons trees in a hedgerow have the odd thorn or two? This
morning we
| picked what we think are fruits -too -big to- be -sloes but there were
a few
| long thorns on some of the branches. I plan to jam them but if they are
| sloes they may not yet be sweet enough so they may have to be "ginned"
| instead!

Yes, but I am afraid that you are confused. They are likely to be
bullaces

I agree.

- the 'wild' damson (and ancestor of modern plums) - probably
introduced by the neolithic farmers. But there is no need for fruit
to be sweet to be good for jam - both sloes and Chaenomeles make very
good jam, and you can make good jam with unripe fruit.

Equally well, you can make a good gin cordial with bullaces and
suitable damsons, though I haven't done it myself.

I have and it's very, very good.

Or cheese, which I have, and chutney, which my wife has :-)

I haven't made chutney but the cheese is wonderful - such an intense flavour
.... drool ... our little tree doesn't produce many fruit so I have to use
them for something special. The cheese is special - there's nothing like it
in my experience.

Mary

Sloes/damsons (slightly OT)
 

"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...

In article ,
Jennifer Sparkes writes:
| The message
| from "Sue" contains these words:
|
| I wondered about bullace but isn't a bullace more of a greeny colour?
| (outside I mean). I am just about to jam them now anyway.
|
| IIRC this came up this time last year and surprised me.
|
| If you look at Bullace in Google Images they show both colours ...

That would figure. Clapham, Tutin and Warberg says that they are usually
blue-black or purple - with the implication that they sometimes aren't.
As they are ancestral to all modern plums (including greengages etc.), it
isn't surprising if they have a similar range of colours.

Ours are green for a long time - then suddenly turn purple - almost black.
Interestingly they do this even if they're picked while green. Sometimes
they drop off while green and I can't bear to throw them away, that's how I
know.

Mary


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Sloes/damsons (slightly OT)
 

"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...


... I would pick them as and when
convenient - traditionally, they were left until the first frost,
but that isn't essential.

If you pick them during a frost there's the advantage that your hands will
be so numb you won't feel the thorns.

The disadvantage is that blood gets everywhere :- )

Mary


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

I made a small sample of jam from what I believed to be wild damsons, and found it had a sufficient hint of sloe-bitterness that I did not wish to eat it. I suggest making a small sample and tasting it before you make 10kg.

I have a suspicion that sloes and wild damsons tend to interbreed, resulting in a range of things with intermediate levels of thorniness and bitterness. So it is possible that not everything I picked was 100% damson.

Sloes/damsons (slightly OT)
 

In article ,
echinosum writes:
|
| I made a small sample of jam from what I believed to be wild damsons,
| and found it had a sufficient hint of sloe-bitterness that I did not
| wish to eat it. I suggest making a small sample and tasting it before
| you make 10kg.

Well, the damson jam I made from Farleigh damsons has quite a hint.

| I have a suspicion that sloes and wild damsons tend to interbreed,
| resulting in a range of things with intermediate levels of thorniness
| and bitterness. So it is possible that not everything I picked was 100%
| damson.

Implausible. Different chromosome numbers. Wild damsons (bullaces)
do vary in thorniness and colour, and almost certainly size and flavour.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Sloes/damsons (slightly OT)
 

Great minds think alike!

I made a tiny jam sample this very morning. Presence of astringency
confirmed suspicions that the "damsons" are indeed sloes.

I now have six little jars of sloe cheese! Sampled it with sausages
tonight...delicious!

-- Sue W.
Derby, England.

Don't try to email me using "REPLY" as the email address is NoSpam. Our
email address is "thewoodies2 at ntlworld dot com"


"echinosum" wrote in message
...

Sue;749515 Wrote:
Might damsons trees in a hedgerow have the odd thorn or two? This
morning we
picked what we think are fruits -too -big to- be -sloes but there were
a few
long thorns on some of the branches. I plan to jam them but if they are

sloes they may not yet be sweet enough so they may have to be "ginned"

instead!
I made a small sample of jam from what I believed to be wild damsons,
and found it had a sufficient hint of sloe-bitterness that I did not
wish to eat it. I suggest making a small sample and tasting it before
you make 10kg.

I have a suspicion that sloes and wild damsons tend to interbreed,
resulting in a range of things with intermediate levels of thorniness
and bitterness. So it is possible that not everything I picked was 100%
damson.




--
echinosum

Sloes/damsons (slightly OT)
 

In article ,
"Sue" writes:
| Great minds think alike!
|
| I made a tiny jam sample this very morning. Presence of astringency
| confirmed suspicions that the "damsons" are indeed sloes.
|
| I now have six little jars of sloe cheese! Sampled it with sausages
| tonight...delicious!

Er, no. If there is merely a presence of astringency, then they are
almost certainly damsons - they are usually somewhat astringent.
Sloe cheese would be SO astringent that even I might baulk at it.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Sloes/damsons (slightly OT)
 

--

"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...

In article ,
"Sue" writes:
| Great minds think alike!
|
| I made a tiny jam sample this very morning. Presence of astringency
| confirmed suspicions that the "damsons" are indeed sloes.
|
| I now have six little jars of sloe cheese! Sampled it with sausages
| tonight...delicious!

Er, no. If there is merely a presence of astringency, then they are
almost certainly damsons - they are usually somewhat astringent.
Sloe cheese would be SO astringent that even I might baulk at it.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

OK. The plot, like the jam, thickens.

I have never noticed astringency in home-made damson jam. Must be my taste
buds.

And can anyone explain the thorns for me if they were in fact damsons?

Sue W.

Sloes/damsons (slightly OT)
 

In article ,
"Sue" writes:
|
| Er, no. If there is merely a presence of astringency, then they are
| almost certainly damsons - they are usually somewhat astringent.
| Sloe cheese would be SO astringent that even I might baulk at it.
|
| OK. The plot, like the jam, thickens.
|
| I have never noticed astringency in home-made damson jam. Must be my taste
| buds.

Or your damsons. They vary, both with variety and ripeness.

| And can anyone explain the thorns for me if they were in fact damsons?

Sigh, yes. As I posted. Bullaces (wild damsons) sometimes have thorns;
it is quite likely that a few cultivated varieties do, too. The same
applies to apples.

The point with both is that the original species is usually a thorny
shrub; it has been bred to be a thornless tree, but older and less
highly bred varieties may have some characteristics of the original.
And seedlings may revert, or hybridise with the wild form (both of
which are still common over all of Europe).

Sloes are a different species, one of the two ancestors of the plum.
Crab apples are the same species as domestic apples.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Sloes/damsons (slightly OT)
 

In reply to Nick Maclaren ) who wrote this in
, I, Marvo, say :

In article ,
"Sue" writes:

Er, no. If there is merely a presence of astringency, then they
are almost certainly damsons - they are usually somewhat
astringent. Sloe cheese would be SO astringent that even I might
baulk at it.

OK. The plot, like the jam, thickens.

I have never noticed astringency in home-made damson jam. Must be
my taste buds.

Or your damsons. They vary, both with variety and ripeness.

And can anyone explain the thorns for me if they were in fact
damsons?

Sigh, yes. As I posted. Bullaces (wild damsons) sometimes have
thorns; it is quite likely that a few cultivated varieties do, too.
The same applies to apples.

The point with both is that the original species is usually a thorny
shrub; it has been bred to be a thornless tree, but older and less
highly bred varieties may have some characteristics of the original.
And seedlings may revert, or hybridise with the wild form (both of
which are still common over all of Europe).

Sloes are a different species, one of the two ancestors of the plum.
Crab apples are the same species as domestic apples.

I think I'm right in saying that one can easily tell the difference just by
biting into one. No?

Sloes/damsons (slightly OT)
 

In article ,
"Uncle Marvo" writes:
|
| Sloes are a different species, one of the two ancestors of the plum.
| Crab apples are the same species as domestic apples.
|
| I think I'm right in saying that one can easily tell the difference just by
| biting into one. No?

In general, yes. You may have a job telling some sloes from some
bullaces and some crab apples from some cider apples, but normally
that is enough to distinguish them.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Sloes/damsons (slightly OT)
 

In article ,
(Nick Maclaren) writes:
|
| Sigh, yes. As I posted. Bullaces (wild damsons) sometimes have thorns;
| it is quite likely that a few cultivated varieties do, too. The same
| applies to apples.

I forgot to say that my Farleigh damson has a few thorns, and that is
a cultivated variety. I believe that some cider apples do, too.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Only some are, eg John Downie. But many are not, in particular the European wild crab is not. Many Malus species can be called crab apples, and we cultivate several of those species, eg, M floribunda, M sieboldii, and a number of crosses, eg M x robusta, as crabs. It used to be thought that the domestic apple was descended from Malus sylvestris, the European wild crab apple, and many of the crabs we grow are cultivars or crosses of M sylvestris. But it is now known the cultivated apple is derived the rare central Asian species Malus sieversii found growing in eastern Kazakhstan and adjacent areas of China.

Sloes/damsons (slightly OT)
 

"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...


They have that effect - now join the very select club of people who like
to eat sloes raw :-)


Me too.
They are, however, much better after 3 months soaking in gin.

Duncan