I sow seedlings in small pots of plastic trays,and although very
careful with watering,I always seem to get problems with damping
off.It starts with just one or two then spreads quickly.I have sown
onions and lettuce to date,and briefly describe what I do to minimise
the problem.I make up a compost with multipurpose,John Innes and grit
sand in varying proportions.Then fill up the pot or tray to within 1/2
inch,flatten gently and place in water until water soaks up to about
3/4 of the surface.I then sift a little compost onto the surface,and
sow the seed reasonably thinly.The tray or pot is then placed in a
heated propagator to encourage good germination.I always achieve good
germination,and at this stage put a little perlite on the surface to
encorage dryness.Since the seed tray or pot has been on the heated
propagator for about a week or so,I am concerned that the soil at the
bottom is becoming dry,and hence place in water again briefly to make
sure that this bottom soil becomes damp again.

The only thing I do not do is to put copper sulphate solution onto the
compost or seedlings at any stage.If this helps when is the time to
use it?

If anyone can spot anything wrong in what I am doing as described
above,I would be very pleased to receive a reply.

Michael

michael wrote:
I sow seedlings in small pots of plastic trays,and although very
careful with watering,I always seem to get problems with damping
off.It starts with just one or two then spreads quickly.I have sown
onions and lettuce to date,and briefly describe what I do to minimise
the problem.I make up a compost with multipurpose,John Innes and grit
sand in varying proportions.Then fill up the pot or tray to within 1/2
inch,flatten gently and place in water until water soaks up to about
3/4 of the surface.I then sift a little compost onto the surface,and
sow the seed reasonably thinly.The tray or pot is then placed in a
heated propagator to encourage good germination.I always achieve good
germination,and at this stage put a little perlite on the surface to
encorage dryness.Since the seed tray or pot has been on the heated
propagator for about a week or so,I am concerned that the soil at the
bottom is becoming dry,and hence place in water again briefly to make
sure that this bottom soil becomes damp again.

I can't see anything particularly wrong with that. If the propagator has a
cover, perhaps leave it off for a few hours a day to allow decent
ventilation. I do sometimes wonder that if the propagator gets too warm,
damping-off is increased.


The only thing I do not do is to put copper sulphate solution onto the
compost or seedlings at any stage.If this helps when is the time to
use it?

I spray with Cheshunt compound as soon as the seeds have been sown. I must
say I am not altogether sure that it makes that much difference.


If anyone can spot anything wrong in what I am doing as described
above,I would be very pleased to receive a reply.

Michael

--
Jeff
(cut "thetape" to reply)

On 2 Feb, 12:04, michael wrote:
I sow seedlings in small pots of plastic trays,and although very
careful with watering,I always seem to get problems with damping
off.It starts with just one or two then spreads quickly.I have sown
onions and lettuce to date,and briefly describe what I do to minimise
the problem.

(snip)

Why do you add the perlite on the top? It expend twice it's size and
that's where you go wrong I think. The water get logged there, at the
stems of your seedlings and creates a wonderful moist place for
bacterias. I would mix the perlite with the compost you make and
wouldn't water again from below, but from above once you see the
surface dry. Also you might have confused vermiculite with perlite -
vermiculite gives air to the compost and maximise aeration for the
seedling growth. Perlite speeds up rooting but mixed in with compost,
not put on the top only. I've never use copper sulphate.

On 2 Feb, 12:04, michael wrote:
I sow seedlings in small pots of plastic trays,and although very
careful with watering,I always seem to get problems with damping
off.It starts with just one or two then spreads quickly.I have sown
onions and lettuce to date,and briefly describe what I do to minimise
the problem.I make up a compost with multipurpose,John Innes and grit
sand in varying proportions.Then fill up the pot or tray to within 1/2
inch,flatten gently and place in water until water soaks up to about
3/4 of the surface.I then sift a little compost onto the surface,and
sow the seed reasonably thinly.The tray or pot is then placed in a
heated propagator to encourage good germination.I always achieve good
germination,and at this stage put a little perlite on the surface to
encorage dryness.Since the seed tray or pot has been on the heated
propagator for about a week or so,I am concerned that the soil at the
bottom is becoming dry,and hence place in water again briefly to make
sure that this bottom soil becomes damp again.

The only thing I do not do is to put copper sulphate solution onto the
compost or seedlings at any stage.If this helps when is the time to
use it?

If anyone can spot anything wrong in what I am doing as described
above,I would be very pleased to receive a reply.

Michael

I'm probably going to give more questions than answers.
Are you talking about sowing now? If so, unless you intend to grow
your lettuces under glass it's too soon anyway. Onions for big bulbs
or show is OK now.
Going through the list in sequence.
Compost - for consistency I'd change from your mixture to a good
proprietary multipurpose compost like Levington multipurpose. Homemade
mixtures are for special needs when you have enough experience to know
what those needs are. The grit sand will not be sterile and commercial
JI composts are notoriously variable from just OK to bloomin awful.
Sow thinly. I've never had any use for perlite or vermiculite, if the
seeds need covering then a bit of the compost sieved over them is all
you need.
Water management will be easier with the Multipurpose compost - I
suspect you've erred on the wet side - experience will be your guide.
Temperature and light levels - the seeds you mention don't need high
temperatures, in fact lettuces will fail at high temperatures. You
only need the warmth to get the physical and biochemical processes
started. Uncover the seedlings as soon as you see that roots are
starting down into the compost and after a day or so reduce the heat
or take the trays off the heat altogether. Your propagator needs to be
in good light but *never* direct sunlight - that turns it into an oven
in minutes. Watch those temperatures - don't rely on the thermostat
being accurately calibrated - it isn't. Use a soil thermometer in your
trays and an air thermometer under the propagator cover. Soil temp
around 16-18C, if the air temperature reaches 30C you're aleady
heading for trouble.
As soon as the seedlings are cooled off and they are big enough to
handle - usually well before you see any true leaves get them out of
the tray and into plugs or whatever that you are going to grow them in
and use the multipurpose compost as before. Continue gradually cooling
them off subject to the usuall caveats about frost, cold winds etc. If
damping off starts you can limit the damage by pricking out
immediately, avoiding the parts of the tray where the seedlings have
gone off and carefully examining every seedling (wear your reading
glasses if you need them) - if you see any kink at soil level then
it's a gonner. If you follow this advice you shouldn't need any
fungicide.
Google for Thompson and Morgan's old seed germination database for
special needs and general advice on growing from seed.
Whenever you change anything watch for the results of the changes and
learn.
That's a distillation of over 40 years as a professional gardener and
nurseryman and reflects what I've been doing with decent success for
several decades now. But others will have their own equally successful
methods and materials and if they work then fine. The above will give
you a reasonable start upon which to build your own techniques.
Good luck and enjoy - every seed that germinates is a little miracle
and if it turns into something like the 40ft Cedar I'm looking at now
that I sowed 35 years ago it's a great big miracle and a joy.

On 2 Feb, 18:48, Rod wrote:
On 2 Feb, 12:04, michael wrote:





I sow seedlings in small pots of plastic trays,and although very
careful with watering,I always seem to get problems with damping
off.It starts with just one or two then spreads quickly.I have sown
onions and lettuce to date,and briefly describe what I do to minimise
the problem.I make up a compost with multipurpose,John Innes and grit
sand in varying proportions.Then fill up the pot or tray to within 1/2
inch,flatten gently and place in water until water soaks up to about
3/4 of the surface.I then sift a little compost onto the surface,and
sow the seed reasonably thinly.The tray or pot is then placed in a
heated propagator to encourage good germination.I always achieve good
germination,and at this stage put a little perlite on the surface to
encorage dryness.Since the seed tray or pot has been on the heated
propagator for about a week or so,I am concerned that the soil at the
bottom is becoming dry,and hence place in water again briefly to make
sure that this bottom soil becomes damp again.

The only thing I do not do is to put copper sulphate solution onto the
compost or seedlings at any stage.If this helps when is the time to
use it?

If anyone can spot anything wrong in what I am doing as described
above,I would be very pleased to receive a reply.

Michael

I'm probably going to give more questions than answers.
Are you talking about sowing now? If so, unless you intend to grow
your lettuces under glass it's too soon anyway. Onions for big bulbs
or show is OK now.
Going through the list in sequence.
Compost - for consistency I'd change from your mixture to a good
proprietary multipurpose compost like Levington multipurpose. Homemade
mixtures are for special needs when you have enough experience to know
what those needs are. The grit sand will not be sterile and commercial
JI composts are notoriously variable from just OK to bloomin awful.
Sow thinly. I've never had any use for perlite or vermiculite, if the
seeds need covering then a bit of the compost sieved over them is all
you need.
Water management will be easier with the Multipurpose compost - I
suspect you've erred on the wet side - experience will be your guide.
Temperature and light levels - the seeds you mention don't need high
temperatures, in fact lettuces will fail at high temperatures. You
only need the warmth to get the physical and biochemical processes
started. Uncover the seedlings as soon as you see that roots are
starting down into the compost and after a day or so reduce the heat
or take the trays off the heat altogether. Your propagator needs to be
in good light but *never* direct sunlight - that turns it into an oven
in minutes. Watch those temperatures - don't rely on the thermostat
being accurately calibrated - it isn't. Use a soil thermometer in your
trays and an air thermometer under the propagator cover. Soil temp
around 16-18C, if the air temperature reaches 30C you're aleady
heading for trouble.
As soon as the seedlings are cooled off and they are big enough to
handle - usually well before you see any true leaves get them out of
the tray and into plugs or whatever that you are going to grow them in
and use the multipurpose compost as before. Continue gradually cooling
them off subject to the usuall caveats about frost, cold winds etc. If
damping off starts you can limit the damage by pricking out
immediately, avoiding the parts of the tray where the seedlings have
gone off and carefully examining every seedling (wear your reading
glasses if you need them) - if you see any kink at soil level then
it's a gonner. If you follow this advice you shouldn't need any
fungicide.
Google for Thompson and Morgan's old seed germination database for
special needs and general advice on growing from seed.
Whenever you change anything watch for the results of the changes and
learn.
That's a distillation of over 40 years *as a professional gardener and
nurseryman and reflects what I've been doing with decent success for
several decades now. But others will have their own equally successful
methods and materials and if they work then fine. The above will give
you a reasonable start upon which to build your own techniques.
Good luck and enjoy - every seed that germinates is a little miracle
and if it turns into something like the 40ft Cedar I'm looking at now
that I sowed 35 years ago it's a great big miracle and a joy.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I forgot to mention water - most damping off fungi are waterborne so
use tap water rather than rainwater, not ideal but it won't carry
fungal spores.

In message
, Rod
writes
I'm probably going to give more questions than answers.
Are you talking about sowing now? If so, unless you intend to grow
your lettuces under glass it's too soon anyway. Onions for big bulbs
or show is OK now.
Going through the list in sequence.
Compost - for consistency I'd change from your mixture to a good
proprietary multipurpose compost like Levington multipurpose. Homemade
mixtures are for special needs when you have enough experience to know
what those needs are. The grit sand will not be sterile and commercial
JI composts are notoriously variable from just OK to bloomin awful.
Sow thinly. I've never had any use for perlite or vermiculite, if the
seeds need covering then a bit of the compost sieved over them is all
you need.
Water management will be easier with the Multipurpose compost - I
suspect you've erred on the wet side - experience will be your guide.
Temperature and light levels - the seeds you mention don't need high
temperatures, in fact lettuces will fail at high temperatures. You
only need the warmth to get the physical and biochemical processes
started. Uncover the seedlings as soon as you see that roots are
starting down into the compost and after a day or so reduce the heat
or take the trays off the heat altogether. Your propagator needs to be
in good light but *never* direct sunlight - that turns it into an oven
in minutes. Watch those temperatures - don't rely on the thermostat
being accurately calibrated - it isn't. Use a soil thermometer in your
trays and an air thermometer under the propagator cover. Soil temp
around 16-18C, if the air temperature reaches 30C you're aleady
heading for trouble.
As soon as the seedlings are cooled off and they are big enough to
handle - usually well before you see any true leaves get them out of
the tray and into plugs or whatever that you are going to grow them in
and use the multipurpose compost as before. Continue gradually cooling
them off subject to the usuall caveats about frost, cold winds etc. If
damping off starts you can limit the damage by pricking out
immediately, avoiding the parts of the tray where the seedlings have
gone off and carefully examining every seedling (wear your reading
glasses if you need them) - if you see any kink at soil level then
it's a gonner. If you follow this advice you shouldn't need any
fungicide.
Google for Thompson and Morgan's old seed germination database for
special needs and general advice on growing from seed.
Whenever you change anything watch for the results of the changes and
learn.
That's a distillation of over 40 years as a professional gardener and
nurseryman and reflects what I've been doing with decent success for
several decades now. But others will have their own equally successful
methods and materials and if they work then fine. The above will give
you a reasonable start upon which to build your own techniques.
Good luck and enjoy - every seed that germinates is a little miracle
and if it turns into something like the 40ft Cedar I'm looking at now
that I sowed 35 years ago it's a great big miracle and a joy.

Many thanks for the very informative post. My recent first attempt at
growing from seeds (two varieties of echium) was a bit of a disaster due
to damping off. From the above it is clear that I did not help matters
by letting temperatures get too high and not ventilating adequately.

As recommended by the seed supplier I used JI number 1 and added about
30% mix of grit and sand which I did not sterilise which was probably a
mistake. I have just got some replacement seeds and this time I will
sterilise the mix and take more care with the growing conditions.

--
Robert

On 4 Feb, 11:23, robert wrote:
In message
, Rod
Many thanks for the very informative post. *My recent first attempt at
growing from seeds (two varieties of echium) was a bit of a disaster due
to damping off. *From *the above it is clear that I did not help matters
by letting temperatures get too high and not ventilating adequately.

As recommended by the seed supplier I used JI number 1 and added about
30% mix of grit and sand which I did not sterilise which was probably a
mistake. *I have just got some replacement seeds and this time I will
sterilise the mix and take more care with the growing conditions.

--
If your echiums are hardy annuals like our native Vipers Bugloss,
they're OK sown direct outside in spring or late summer. However I
suspect you may be talking about E. pininana and it's ilk - they are a
much more challenging proposition they belong to mediterranean
climate zones and aren't well suited to our damp, cool, dull
conditions. At Ness E.pininana thrives on a warm sheltered bank in
thin acid soil over sandstone with light high canopy of pines - they
damp off at the drop of a hat from the moment they germinate to the
time they reach flowering size. It is water management all the way -
germination is easy enough, from there warmish well ventilated
position in full light in a well drained compost, they must never be
allowed to get even slightly waterlogged. I have to say my success
with these has not been spectacular but I'm learning.

In message
, Rod
writes
On 4 Feb, 11:23, robert wrote:
In message
, Rod
Many thanks for the very informative post. *My recent first attempt at
growing from seeds (two varieties of echium) was a bit of a disaster due
to damping off. *From *the above it is clear that I did not help matters
by letting temperatures get too high and not ventilating adequately.

As recommended by the seed supplier I used JI number 1 and added about
30% mix of grit and sand which I did not sterilise which was probably a
mistake. *I have just got some replacement seeds and this time I will
sterilise the mix and take more care with the growing conditions.

--
If your echiums are hardy annuals like our native Vipers Bugloss,
they're OK sown direct outside in spring or late summer. However I
suspect you may be talking about E. pininana and it's ilk - they are a
much more challenging proposition they belong to mediterranean
climate zones and aren't well suited to our damp, cool, dull
conditions. At Ness E.pininana thrives on a warm sheltered bank in
thin acid soil over sandstone with light high canopy of pines - they
damp off at the drop of a hat from the moment they germinate to the
time they reach flowering size. It is water management all the way -
germination is easy enough, from there warmish well ventilated
position in full light in a well drained compost, they must never be
allowed to get even slightly waterlogged. I have to say my success
with these has not been spectacular but I'm learning.

The echium we are trying are E wildpretii and a cross between E pininana
and wildpretii. The people we get the seed from have the cross growing
profusely on a stone wall at the road side (a local landmark during the
summer) about and a couple of wildpretii in their car park border - on a
similarly exposed site near here. We appreciate the need for really
good drainage. We have managed to over winter one of two plants from
last summer.

--
Robert