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Shrubs for Windy area
Looking for advice about best shrubs for a south west facing slope. The garden in very exposed - (live high up on a hill - Scotland) there is very little shelter. Additionally the soil is quite shallow and is just rock underneath.
The garden has nothing in it just now bar lawn and a sorry beech hedge. Sheep in fields round house so can't have anything poisonous (laurel, rhodi, etc) Ideas much appreciated. Thanks wind'n'stone |
Shrubs for Windy area
In article , wind'n'stone writes: | | Looking for advice about best shrubs for a south west facing slope. The | garden in very exposed - (live high up on a hill - Scotland) there is | very little shelter. Additionally the soil is quite shallow and is just | rock underneath. | The garden has nothing in it just now bar lawn and a sorry beech hedge. | Sheep in fields round house so can't have anything poisonous (laurel, | rhodi, etc) Ideas much appreciated. Thanks | wind'n'stone Sheep aren't half as stupid as most people! Provided that they have something else to eat, they will almost never eat poisonous plants. What is more, you will need something that they won't eat. The first question is what the rock is - i.e. is your soil highly acid, slightly acid or neutral to basic? It probably won't be highly basic. And that affects which plants will grow. Regrettably, your choice is very limited. Blackthorn and gorse are the obvious candidates (plus birch and Scots pine, as trees), and anything beyond that might struggle a bit. It's worth considering all of those as windbreaks, and establishing other plants in pockets of improved soil, somewhat protected from the wind. I have never gardened in those conditions, so that is second-hand. Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
Shrubs for Windy area
wind'n'stone wrote:
Looking for advice about best shrubs for a south west facing slope. The garden in very exposed - (live high up on a hill - Scotland) there is very little shelter. Additionally the soil is quite shallow and is just rock underneath. The garden has nothing in it just now bar lawn and a sorry beech hedge. Sheep in fields round house so can't have anything poisonous (laurel, rhodi, etc) Ideas much appreciated. Thanks wind'n'stone I suggest that you contact a local branch of the Alpine Garden Society. Not only should they be familiar with your growing conditions, they may also suggest a source of plants. It sounds to me as though whatever you choose, you will end up with "natural" bonsai! -- Jeff (cut "thetape" to reply) |
Shrubs for Windy area
On 11 Mar, 09:50, "Jeff Layman" wrote:
wind'n'stone wrote: Looking for advice about best shrubs for a south west facing slope. The garden in very exposed - (live high up on a hill - Scotland) there is very little shelter. Additionally the soil is quite shallow and is just rock underneath. The garden has nothing in it just now bar lawn and a sorry beech hedge. Sheep in fields round house so can't have anything poisonous (laurel, rhodi, etc) Ideas much appreciated. Thanks wind'n'stone I suggest that you contact a local branch of the Alpine Garden Society. *Not only should they be familiar with your growing conditions, they may also suggest a source of plants. It sounds to me as though whatever you choose, you will end up with "natural" bonsai! -- Jeff (cut "thetape" to reply) I would try holly, hornbeam.and what about some Mountain Ash David Hill Abacus Nurseries |
Shrubs for Windy area
wind'n'stone wrote:
Looking for advice about best shrubs for a south west facing slope. The garden in very exposed - (live high up on a hill - Scotland) there is very little shelter. Additionally the soil is quite shallow and is just rock underneath. The garden has nothing in it just now bar lawn and a sorry beech hedge. Sheep in fields round house so can't have anything poisonous (laurel, rhodi, etc) Ideas much appreciated. Thanks wind'n'stone Scotland, exposed, south-west facing slope, little depth of soil . . . how about a range of glorious heathers? Eddy. |
Shrubs for Windy area
In article , "Jeff Layman" writes: | | I suggest that you contact a local branch of the Alpine Garden Society. Not | only should they be familiar with your growing conditions, they may also | suggest a source of plants. Most "alpines" prefer basic conditions, and a lot less wet than Scotland. If there is a local branch, then they will definitely be worth contacting - but a London one would not be. | It sounds to me as though whatever you choose, you will end up with | "natural" bonsai! Indeed :-) Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
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If you go to southern patagonia, a very windy place, you will observe that the shrubs there tend to be cushion shaped. I'm not entirely sure what the various "spiny cushion plants" one had to avoid sitting on were, but they were quite various, and survived remarkably terrible conditions, in effect a range of different gorse-like plants. One non-spiny patagonian cushion-like shrub I do know you can get here from specialists here is Baccharis patagonica, though if you are inland in the grampians it probably won't be hardy enough for you. Quite a few berberis will probably do you too, many of those are from Chile. The dominant tree in Patagonia is Nothofagus antarctica, which bonsais itself rather splendidly in an exposed location, though can't grow in the most exposed locations. I have a N antarctica in my Bucks garden, and it is quite fast growing, after 7 yrs it has now equalled in height the 20-yr old scots pine and picea glauca in the garden. By having very small leaves and a sparse larch-like branch structure, it shed wind easily. It grows slower in windier places. A lovely tree. Nothofagus betuloides is a another wind-resistant tree from southern Chile, an evergreen this time, but it prefers damp wind to dry, so probably won't do in the Grampians. Actually does better in a windy location, because otherwise it grows too fast and then gets knocked over when it is windy. If you read spanish, you may find further interesting ideas here. http://www.florachilena.cl/ I expect there are probably bamboos you can grow. They are shallow rooted, many are very hardy, and some of them really do very well in cool damp summers. Doesn't even have to be too damp, Phyllostachys aureosulcata does well on the East coast of Scotland. If a taller one such as a Phyllostachys really won't take your wind, then there are shorter low growing ones. Bamboo specialists will advise. |
Thanks everyone. Like the idea of planting some ash. willow, birch in with the beech hedge to try and create some form of windbreak. I currently have some of that plastic windbreak stugg tied to the fence but the recent strong winds has ripped it off and sent it to the other side of the field so I really need to try and get a bit of shelter created.
Could build up a Holly hedge from the edge of the Beech hedge. A friend has given me some juniper to try. Never thought about bamboo. I have an area to the side of the slope which would look good with bamboos and sedges/grasses. Scots Pine - would love to try this but does it not need deep roots and wettish soil?? No idea what kind of rock I have - not sandstone, granite or whin looks slaty in bits but needs a pnuematic drill to break it up! G hod idea as it grows well in this area (West Coast - 25miles inland though) butHave loads of gorse/broom and whin in the fields - would rather try something else. Thanks for all your input - any other ideas welcomed - I feel a trip down the nursery coming on. = at least you all know what my user name means!! |
Sorry - should have said soil is mainly acid (so the heathers would be good idea) I have one area of clay soil where it is more neutral - understand from neighbour that previous owner had load of soil delivered and dumped.
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Shrubs for Windy area
In article , wind'n'stone writes: | | Thanks everyone. Like the idea of planting some ash. willow, birch in | with the beech hedge to try and create some form of windbreak. I would definitely go for more wind-resistant plants for the actual windbreak. None of beech, ash or willow are good against wind (dwarf willows excepted, and they are too small). Look up Inverewe and see what was done there. | Could build up a Holly hedge from the edge of the Beech hedge. A friend | has given me some juniper to try. Holly (and bamboos) won't thrive in those conditions, though they may grow. Juniper can take wind, but may find your soil a bit acid. | Scots Pine - would love to try this but does it not need deep roots and | wettish soil?? No, though it may well grow as a sort of bonsai, as someone pointed out. Look at what grows naturally in the Highlands. | G hod idea as it grows well in this area (West Coast - 25miles inland | though) butHave loads of gorse/broom and whin in the fields - would | rather try something else. Probably acid, then, though not necessarily. Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
Shrubs for Windy area
"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message ... In article , wind'n'stone writes: | | Thanks everyone. Like the idea of planting some ash. willow, birch in | with the beech hedge to try and create some form of windbreak. I would definitely go for more wind-resistant plants for the actual windbreak. None of beech, ash or willow are good against wind (dwarf willows excepted, and they are too small). Look up Inverewe and see what was done there. | Could build up a Holly hedge from the edge of the Beech hedge. A friend | has given me some juniper to try. Holly (and bamboos) won't thrive in those conditions, though they may grow. Juniper can take wind, but may find your soil a bit acid. | Scots Pine - would love to try this but does it not need deep roots and | wettish soil?? No, though it may well grow as a sort of bonsai, as someone pointed out. Look at what grows naturally in the Highlands. | G hod idea as it grows well in this area (West Coast - 25miles inland | though) butHave loads of gorse/broom and whin in the fields - would | rather try something else. Probably acid, then, though not necessarily. Regards, Nick Maclaren. Also consider Sea Buckthorn and Tamarix. |
None of beech, ash or willow are good against wind (dwarf
willows excepted, and they are too small). Look up Inverewe and see what was done there.[/quote] You can do better than dwarf willows. I have not imagined the willow hedges that are grown all over the inhabited parts of Iceland as windbreaks, although it appears that the possibility is not well known in this country. See in particular the comment on p12 of the following (I have cycled past the hedge in that picture and it is a very windy place, I doubt the poster lives in such a windy place since he is not in the Outer Hebrides - more normally they are rather more tidily pruned as on p5) but the rest is also interesting. http://www.windandlandscape.com/docu...Structures.pdf The difficulty I am having is finding out exactly which species they use. After a bit of further searching, I'm beginning to wonder if it is S. caprea which PFAF notes is grown as windbreaks in places with maritime exposure, and is very hardy. The above document mentions S. phylicifolia (which may include S pulchra), but in a special context, so I don't think it is the normal one. Poplars, being a member of the willow family, are also grown as wind-breaks in exposed windy places. I've seen them quite high in the western hills in Norway, further north than Trondheim, and are also mentioned in the Icelandic context in that document. The thing about poplars is that they need an understory to provide low level wind protection, while they provide height. Birches are also common in Iceland and northern parts of Norway. They tend to be stockier than birches seen in thi scountry. Maybe they are a suitable species, or maybe they just grow that way if grown in windy conditions. A lot of plants which do grow well in windy places don't actually grow so well in Britain because it isn't regularly windy enough (yes even in much of Scotland) - the lack of regular wind in Britian means they grow lanky and then blow over. Once you've been to Patagonia or Iceland you'll realise that Scotland, a few special localities aside, really isn't that windy. I already mentioned N betuloides, but N pumila is especially noted for this. |
Shrubs for Windy area
echinosum wrote:
If you go to southern patagonia, a very windy place, you will observe that the shrubs there tend to be cushion shaped. I'm not entirely sure what the various "spiny cushion plants" one had to avoid sitting on were, but they were quite various, and survived remarkably terrible conditions, in effect a range of different gorse-like plants. One non-spiny patagonian cushion-like shrub I do know you can get here from specialists here is Baccharis patagonica, though if you are inland in the grampians it probably won't be hardy enough for you. Quite a few berberis will probably do you too, many of those are from Chile. The dominant tree in Patagonia is Nothofagus antarctica, which bonsais itself rather splendidly in an exposed location, though can't grow in the most exposed locations. I have a N antarctica in my Bucks garden, and it is quite fast growing, after 7 yrs it has now equalled in height the 20-yr old scots pine and picea glauca in the garden. By having very small leaves and a sparse larch-like branch structure, it shed wind easily. It grows slower in windier places. A lovely tree. Nothofagus betuloides is a another wind-resistant tree from southern Chile, an evergreen this time, but it prefers damp wind to dry, so probably won't do in the Grampians. Actually does better in a windy location, because otherwise it grows too fast and then gets knocked over when it is windy. If you read spanish, you may find further interesting ideas here. http://www.florachilena.cl/ Patagonia is windy, but it is also very dry. The soil tends to be pretty sandy, too. There are lots of dwarf plants there, and as much as I would love to see Junellias growing in Scotland, it won't happen. It is a lot damper on the Chilean side of the Andes and there are a number of rare plants down in the Torres del Paine which at first glance might seem suitable, but, once again, it just won't happen. I've seen Embothrium coccineum in flower adjacent to icebergs on Lago Grey, so that might be an option if seeds of those particular plants became available. But only a couple of k away was Anarthrophyllum desideratum, and there is no way that will grow in Scotland. So although Patagonia and Southern Chile might seem to offer plants suitable for the OP, the conditions are too dissimilar for them to succeed in Scotland. -- Jeff (cut "thetape" to reply) |
Shrubs for Windy area
In article , echinosum writes: | | None of beech, ash or willow are good against wind (dwarf | willows excepted, and they are too small). Look up Inverewe and see | what was done there. | | You can do better than dwarf willows. I have not imagined the willow | hedges that are grown all over the inhabited parts of Iceland as | windbreaks, although it appears that the possibility is not well known in | this country. ... | The difficulty I am having is finding out exactly which species they use. | After a bit of further searching, I'm beginning to wonder if it is S. | caprea which PFAF notes is grown as windbreaks in places with maritime | exposure, and is very hardy. I was thinking about other species, I agree - a lot of them lose branches badly in wind. S. alba, for example. S. caprea might well do better. | Birches are also common in Iceland and northern parts of Norway. They | tend to be stockier than birches seen in thi scountry. Maybe they are a | suitable species, or maybe they just grow that way if grown in windy | conditions. Probably the latter. Their shape depends very much on whether the soil is rich or poor, and I can believe that the wind also makes a major difference. The birches of southern suburbia and the Highlands are very different in shape. | A lot of plants which do grow well in windy places don't | actually grow so well in Britain because it isn't regularly windy enough | (yes even in much of Scotland) - the lack of regular wind in Britian | means they grow lanky and then blow over. Some of that is other factors - birches grow fast and large and lose branches on the fertile soils of the south of England more readily than on the poor ones of the uplands. But tell that to Californians - they think that a force 7 is a howling gale :-) Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
Lots of ideas, thanks.
Dave - I have a little group of Mountain Ash (Rowan) at the opposite corner of the garden - we have a superstition in Scotland that Rowan guards us from witches so it's quite commonly planted near the house. My Gran used to keep a branch above the door. That and Silver Birches are most common around here though S Birch does not like the wind. Eddy - Heathers - I am going to put in a heather bed at the North end of the back garden area - soil there was highest in acid when I done the test and is pretty exposed so I thought they’d be a good choice for that area. Just need to decide whether to stick to one colour, one type, or just chuck in a variety and see how they go. Echinosum - wow, where do you get all that stuff from? The guys at my local nursery would be delighted if someone asked for something other than marigolds and roses! Seriously though I never thought of S. Lanata, I call it wooly willow, that could be a possibility. I already planted some picea glauca albertiana conica in some large tubs along the roadside. They have done not too badly over the winter, so I could consider some of the larger, denser varieties. Also salix caprea - goat willow, again good idea haven't seen it locally though - will ask at nursery what they think. Nick - I’d just love to plant Scots Pines, I seen it in what’s left of the old Caledonia forest and I think it’s awesome, just worried about size, height etc. Though my friend did point out by the time it got to that height it wouldn’t be my problem - maybe I should plant up a few in the bottom of the field just because I can?? Are you sure it would cope with 9" of soil and then rock? Spider - Sea Buckthorn I’ve never actually seen but googled it and I think it looks a bit too much like gorse for me. But, Tamarix Gallica is supposedly good as a windbreak so I may try and source that it was a plant I had many years ago but never thought about. I'll need to check if it's toxic though (these sheep again - yes, I know they shouldn't eat it but the deal is I can only plant up the garden if there is no poisonus plants so . . ) Plenty food for thought, I can just see the windbreak up the plants in front of it and me sitting in the sun . . . . . ten years time perhaps |
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Plants from the very wet, cool, but never very cold, west coast of Patagonia (mostly in Chile) frequently do well on the west coasts of the British Isles, especially, Scotland and Ireland, which has a similar climate. Fuchsia magellanica and Gunnera tinctoria are invasive weeds in Ireland. Escallonias are popular hedging shrubs. Berberis is everywhere. Sometimes these species have a wide geographical range and have been sourced horticulturally from much further north in Chile, where the climate is milder, and from this provenance do not always do very well in Britain. This is a specific issue with Embothrium Coccineum (notro), which has an especially wide geographical range. I've seen it growing very well in (inland) Connemara, along side a brilliant Crinodendron hookerianum, and i believe these are also grown in Scotland. Unfortunately I haven't been in TdP late enough in the season to collect seed from it. The best area for obtaining plants likely to succeed in much of Britain is the Transitional zone, since this area has a wider temperature range and moderate rainfall, very similar to many areas of Britain. This is the area where Nothofagus antarctica grows, as opposed to the evergreen forest on the coast. Plants from the arid zone may not be suitable for Britain, they likely require a wider temperature range than we can give them, and won't like our wet mild winters, but they may be good for places in the USA/Canada where they get that wider temp range, and less wet/humid winters. I believe the A desideratum you mention has not succeeded in cultivation anywhere, and it seems it is a very fussy plant, as well as coming from the (semi) arid zone unlikely to supply suitable plants for Britain. But you no doubt saw loads of berberis buxifolia (calafate) nearby (the berries of which are popularly collected for consumption/jam), and that is commonly grown in Britain. Unfortunately the form commonly available here doesn't fruit. I had a walk in a Chilean coolish temperate forest just last year, in an area with a rainfall about the same as Manchester or Bristol, not very far south, but the altitude (5000 feet+) compensated for that - snow in winter, too cold for grapes or peaches here. Almost every plant I saw is in cultivation in some part of Britain - several Nothofagus spp, Buddleia globosa, Fabiana spp, Colletia spp, Gevuina avellana, Chusquea spp, etc. |
Shrubs for Windy area
In article , echinosum writes: | | As you cross Patagonia from East to West (Chileans generally include | the far southern part of their country in the concept of Patagonia), | the climate changes from Arid to Very Wet, with a significant | transitional zone in the middle, though in some places it is rather | narrow. Torres del Paine (which I have visited twice) lies across the | transitional area, exhibiting the full range of climates. You can walk | from the arid zone to the transitional in a very short time, as you go | around a spur and arrive in a rain shadow. So proximity is not a good | measure of continued suitability/unsuitability. That probably has something to do with having Real Mountains :-) Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
Shrubs for Windy area
echinosum wrote:
As you cross Patagonia from East to West (Chileans generally include the far southern part of their country in the concept of Patagonia), the climate changes from Arid to Very Wet, with a significant transitional zone in the middle, though in some places it is rather narrow. Torres del Paine (which I have visited twice) lies across the transitional area, exhibiting the full range of climates. You can walk from the arid zone to the transitional in a very short time, as you go around a spur and arrive in a rain shadow. So proximity is not a good measure of continued suitability/unsuitability. Agreed. According to the info I have, temperature ranges from 30°C in summer to -15°C in winter in the various regions, with quite a bit of tempering going on in summer and winter according to how near a lake the region is. Wind shadow will be as important as rain shadow in some areas. Plants from the very wet, cool, but never very cold, west coast of Patagonia (mostly in Chile) frequently do well on the west coasts of the British Isles, especially, Scotland and Ireland, which has a similar climate. Fuchsia magellanica and Gunnera tinctoria are invasive weeds in Ireland. Escallonias are popular hedging shrubs. Berberis is everywhere. Sometimes these species have a wide geographical range and have been sourced horticulturally from much further north in Chile, where the climate is milder, and from this provenance do not always do very well in Britain. This is a specific issue with Embothrium Coccineum (notro), which has an especially wide geographical range. I've seen it growing very well in (inland) Connemara, along side a brilliant Crinodendron hookerianum, and i believe these are also grown in Scotland. There are a couple of very large E. coccineum growing in Winkworth arboretum in Surrey! I don't know their provenance. But having seen them growing well before only in western regions of Scotland and in Cornwall (can't say I've seen them in Wales - I wonder if there are any), I was somewhat surprised to see them in the South East. Maybe there is a particular microclimate there which suits them, or maybe they can't read the books which say where they can and can't grow! That is true of Crinodendron hookerianum. I grew mine in a large pot until it got too big, so stuck it in my Sussex clay on the north side of a 2m fence. I expected it to get blasted once it got its head above the fence in full sun. Not a bit of it - it grew even better. Now nearly 4m high and still going. Unfortunately I haven't been in TdP late enough in the season to collect seed from it. We were too late - lots of empty pods on the ground from the previous year. The best area for obtaining plants likely to succeed in much of Britain is the Transitional zone, since this area has a wider temperature range and moderate rainfall, very similar to many areas of Britain. This is the area where Nothofagus antarctica grows, as opposed to the evergreen forest on the coast. Plants from the arid zone may not be suitable for Britain, they likely require a wider temperature range than we can give them, and won't like our wet mild winters, but they may be good for places in the USA/Canada where they get that wider temp range, and less wet/humid winters. I still think that none of the TdP regions' plants are suitable for Western Scotland. According to the Nancul's guide to TdP, There are 4 biotic provinces in TdP - Patagonian Steppe, Preandean Steppe, Deciduous Magellanic Forest, and Andean Desert. The first has yearly rainfall up to 400 mm, and is considered semi-arid. Preandean Heath is considered arid (the Anarthrophyllum grows there). Neither would contain suitable plants for Western Scotland (NB, I see that the OP said that he is 25 miles inland. Isn't that a bit too far for a tempering effect of the Gulf Stream?). Deciduous Magellanic Forest has a rainfall over 400 mm a year. But even that is probably only a third or even less of what the OP gets. Andean desert speaks for itself! But you no doubt saw loads of berberis buxifolia (calafate) nearby (the berries of which are popularly collected for consumption/jam), and that is commonly grown in Britain. Yes. But would it grow 25 miles inland in Western Scotland? Other shrubs from the Deciduous forest include B. illicifolia, Ribes magellanicum, and Pernettya (Gaultheria) mucronata. I had a walk in a Chilean coolish temperate forest just last year, in an area with a rainfall about the same as Manchester or Bristol, not very far south, but the altitude (5000 feet+) compensated for that - snow in winter, too cold for grapes or peaches here. Almost every plant I saw is in cultivation in some part of Britain - several Nothofagus spp, Buddleia globosa, Fabiana spp, Colletia spp, Gevuina avellana, Chusquea spp, etc. What area in Chile? Somewhere between Chillan and Temuco? Plants growing there will only grow mainly in the more temperate, wetter, and less windy areas of Britain. -- Jeff (cut "thetape" to reply) |
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Hi just an idea is to try a Ginkgo tree.. which prefers a moist soil with full sunlight. The Ginkgo is deep rooted and resistant to wind and snow damage. The soil it inhabits is typically in the pH range of 5 to 5.5. or alternatively if there isnt much for the Ginkgo to get it's roots to then Heather is always a lovely shrub :) |
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