Looking for advice about best shrubs for a south west facing slope. The garden in very exposed - (live high up on a hill - Scotland) there is very little shelter. Additionally the soil is quite shallow and is just rock underneath.
The garden has nothing in it just now bar lawn and a sorry beech hedge. Sheep in fields round house so can't have anything poisonous (laurel, rhodi, etc) Ideas much appreciated. Thanks
wind'n'stone

In article ,
wind'n'stone writes:
|
| Looking for advice about best shrubs for a south west facing slope. The
| garden in very exposed - (live high up on a hill - Scotland) there is
| very little shelter. Additionally the soil is quite shallow and is just
| rock underneath.
| The garden has nothing in it just now bar lawn and a sorry beech hedge.
| Sheep in fields round house so can't have anything poisonous (laurel,
| rhodi, etc) Ideas much appreciated. Thanks
| wind'n'stone

Sheep aren't half as stupid as most people! Provided that they have
something else to eat, they will almost never eat poisonous plants.
What is more, you will need something that they won't eat.

The first question is what the rock is - i.e. is your soil highly
acid, slightly acid or neutral to basic? It probably won't be highly
basic. And that affects which plants will grow.

Regrettably, your choice is very limited. Blackthorn and gorse are
the obvious candidates (plus birch and Scots pine, as trees), and
anything beyond that might struggle a bit. It's worth considering
all of those as windbreaks, and establishing other plants in pockets
of improved soil, somewhat protected from the wind.

I have never gardened in those conditions, so that is second-hand.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

wind'n'stone wrote:
Looking for advice about best shrubs for a south west facing slope.
The garden in very exposed - (live high up on a hill - Scotland)
there is very little shelter. Additionally the soil is quite shallow
and is just rock underneath.
The garden has nothing in it just now bar lawn and a sorry beech
hedge. Sheep in fields round house so can't have anything poisonous
(laurel, rhodi, etc) Ideas much appreciated. Thanks
wind'n'stone

I suggest that you contact a local branch of the Alpine Garden Society. Not
only should they be familiar with your growing conditions, they may also
suggest a source of plants.

It sounds to me as though whatever you choose, you will end up with
"natural" bonsai!

--
Jeff
(cut "thetape" to reply)

On 11 Mar, 09:50, "Jeff Layman" wrote:
wind'n'stone wrote:
Looking for advice about best shrubs for a south west facing slope.
The garden in very exposed - (live high up on a hill - Scotland)
there is very little shelter. Additionally the soil is quite shallow
and is just rock underneath.
The garden has nothing in it just now bar lawn and a sorry beech
hedge. Sheep in fields round house so can't have anything poisonous
(laurel, rhodi, etc) Ideas much appreciated. Thanks
wind'n'stone

I suggest that you contact a local branch of the Alpine Garden Society. *Not
only should they be familiar with your growing conditions, they may also
suggest a source of plants.

It sounds to me as though whatever you choose, you will end up with
"natural" bonsai!

--
Jeff
(cut "thetape" to reply)

I would try holly, hornbeam.and what about some Mountain Ash
David Hill
Abacus Nurseries

wind'n'stone wrote:
Looking for advice about best shrubs for a south west facing slope. The
garden in very exposed - (live high up on a hill - Scotland) there is
very little shelter. Additionally the soil is quite shallow and is just
rock underneath.
The garden has nothing in it just now bar lawn and a sorry beech hedge.
Sheep in fields round house so can't have anything poisonous (laurel,
rhodi, etc) Ideas much appreciated. Thanks
wind'n'stone

Scotland, exposed, south-west facing slope, little depth of soil . . .
how about a range of glorious heathers?

Eddy.

In article ,
"Jeff Layman" writes:
|
| I suggest that you contact a local branch of the Alpine Garden Society. Not
| only should they be familiar with your growing conditions, they may also
| suggest a source of plants.

Most "alpines" prefer basic conditions, and a lot less wet than
Scotland. If there is a local branch, then they will definitely
be worth contacting - but a London one would not be.

| It sounds to me as though whatever you choose, you will end up with
| "natural" bonsai!

Indeed :-)


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

As my friend gardening in Thurso has discovered, if you first establish yourself a good windbreak, then what you can grow greatly increases in variety. Your beech hedge may be good for that. Sitka spruce is a very good windbreak. There are also several kinds of willow which make good windproof hedging, I can't remember the precise type, but there is one particular one with pale coloured, broad leaves which is commonly used in Iceland for hedging to establish a windbreak, (maybe Salix lanata or S. lapponum or S. aurita or something) behind which you can grow your redcurrants, spiraea, potatoes, rhubarb, and whatever else Icelanders like to grow. If you are in a milder location somewhere not too far from the coast, even up a hill, then probably what you can grow behind that windbreak is much greater in variety than if you are inland and prone to nasty winter freezes and cold dry winds.

If you go to southern patagonia, a very windy place, you will observe that the shrubs there tend to be cushion shaped. I'm not entirely sure what the various "spiny cushion plants" one had to avoid sitting on were, but they were quite various, and survived remarkably terrible conditions, in effect a range of different gorse-like plants. One non-spiny patagonian cushion-like shrub I do know you can get here from specialists here is Baccharis patagonica, though if you are inland in the grampians it probably won't be hardy enough for you. Quite a few berberis will probably do you too, many of those are from Chile.

The dominant tree in Patagonia is Nothofagus antarctica, which bonsais itself rather splendidly in an exposed location, though can't grow in the most exposed locations. I have a N antarctica in my Bucks garden, and it is quite fast growing, after 7 yrs it has now equalled in height the 20-yr old scots pine and picea glauca in the garden. By having very small leaves and a sparse larch-like branch structure, it shed wind easily. It grows slower in windier places. A lovely tree. Nothofagus betuloides is a another wind-resistant tree from southern Chile, an evergreen this time, but it prefers damp wind to dry, so probably won't do in the Grampians. Actually does better in a windy location, because otherwise it grows too fast and then gets knocked over when it is windy. If you read spanish, you may find further interesting ideas here. http://www.florachilena.cl/

I expect there are probably bamboos you can grow. They are shallow rooted, many are very hardy, and some of them really do very well in cool damp summers. Doesn't even have to be too damp, Phyllostachys aureosulcata does well on the East coast of Scotland. If a taller one such as a Phyllostachys really won't take your wind, then there are shorter low growing ones. Bamboo specialists will advise.

Thanks everyone. Like the idea of planting some ash. willow, birch in with the beech hedge to try and create some form of windbreak. I currently have some of that plastic windbreak stugg tied to the fence but the recent strong winds has ripped it off and sent it to the other side of the field so I really need to try and get a bit of shelter created.
Could build up a Holly hedge from the edge of the Beech hedge. A friend has given me some juniper to try.
Never thought about bamboo. I have an area to the side of the slope which would look good with bamboos and sedges/grasses.
Scots Pine - would love to try this but does it not need deep roots and wettish soil??
No idea what kind of rock I have - not sandstone, granite or whin looks slaty in bits but needs a pnuematic drill to break it up!
G hod idea as it grows well in this area (West Coast - 25miles inland though) butHave loads of gorse/broom and whin in the fields - would rather try something else.
Thanks for all your input - any other ideas welcomed - I feel a trip down the nursery coming on.
= at least you all know what my user name means!!

Sorry - should have said soil is mainly acid (so the heathers would be good idea) I have one area of clay soil where it is more neutral - understand from neighbour that previous owner had load of soil delivered and dumped.

In article ,
wind'n'stone writes:
|
| Thanks everyone. Like the idea of planting some ash. willow, birch in
| with the beech hedge to try and create some form of windbreak.

I would definitely go for more wind-resistant plants for the actual
windbreak. None of beech, ash or willow are good against wind (dwarf
willows excepted, and they are too small). Look up Inverewe and see
what was done there.

| Could build up a Holly hedge from the edge of the Beech hedge. A friend
| has given me some juniper to try.

Holly (and bamboos) won't thrive in those conditions, though they may
grow. Juniper can take wind, but may find your soil a bit acid.

| Scots Pine - would love to try this but does it not need deep roots and
| wettish soil??

No, though it may well grow as a sort of bonsai, as someone pointed out.
Look at what grows naturally in the Highlands.

| G hod idea as it grows well in this area (West Coast - 25miles inland
| though) butHave loads of gorse/broom and whin in the fields - would
| rather try something else.

Probably acid, then, though not necessarily.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...

In article ,
wind'n'stone writes:
|
| Thanks everyone. Like the idea of planting some ash. willow, birch in
| with the beech hedge to try and create some form of windbreak.

I would definitely go for more wind-resistant plants for the actual
windbreak. None of beech, ash or willow are good against wind (dwarf
willows excepted, and they are too small). Look up Inverewe and see
what was done there.

| Could build up a Holly hedge from the edge of the Beech hedge. A friend
| has given me some juniper to try.

Holly (and bamboos) won't thrive in those conditions, though they may
grow. Juniper can take wind, but may find your soil a bit acid.

| Scots Pine - would love to try this but does it not need deep roots and
| wettish soil??

No, though it may well grow as a sort of bonsai, as someone pointed out.
Look at what grows naturally in the Highlands.

| G hod idea as it grows well in this area (West Coast - 25miles inland
| though) butHave loads of gorse/broom and whin in the fields - would
| rather try something else.

Probably acid, then, though not necessarily.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Also consider Sea Buckthorn and Tamarix.

None of beech, ash or willow are good against wind (dwarf
willows excepted, and they are too small). Look up Inverewe and see
what was done there.[/quote]
You can do better than dwarf willows. I have not imagined the willow hedges that are grown all over the inhabited parts of Iceland as windbreaks, although it appears that the possibility is not well known in this country. See in particular the comment on p12 of the following (I have cycled past the hedge in that picture and it is a very windy place, I doubt the poster lives in such a windy place since he is not in the Outer Hebrides - more normally they are rather more tidily pruned as on p5) but the rest is also interesting. http://www.windandlandscape.com/docu...Structures.pdf
The difficulty I am having is finding out exactly which species they use. After a bit of further searching, I'm beginning to wonder if it is S. caprea which PFAF notes is grown as windbreaks in places with maritime exposure, and is very hardy. The above document mentions S. phylicifolia (which may include S pulchra), but in a special context, so I don't think it is the normal one. Poplars, being a member of the willow family, are also grown as wind-breaks in exposed windy places. I've seen them quite high in the western hills in Norway, further north than Trondheim, and are also mentioned in the Icelandic context in that document. The thing about poplars is that they need an understory to provide low level wind protection, while they provide height.

Birches are also common in Iceland and northern parts of Norway. They tend to be stockier than birches seen in thi scountry. Maybe they are a suitable species, or maybe they just grow that way if grown in windy conditions. A lot of plants which do grow well in windy places don't actually grow so well in Britain because it isn't regularly windy enough (yes even in much of Scotland) - the lack of regular wind in Britian means they grow lanky and then blow over. Once you've been to Patagonia or Iceland you'll realise that Scotland, a few special localities aside, really isn't that windy. I already mentioned N betuloides, but N pumila is especially noted for this.

echinosum wrote:

If you go to southern patagonia, a very windy place, you will observe
that the shrubs there tend to be cushion shaped. I'm not entirely sure
what the various "spiny cushion plants" one had to avoid sitting on
were, but they were quite various, and survived remarkably terrible
conditions, in effect a range of different gorse-like plants. One
non-spiny patagonian cushion-like shrub I do know you can get here
from specialists here is Baccharis patagonica, though if you are
inland in the grampians it probably won't be hardy enough for you.
Quite a few berberis will probably do you too, many of those are from
Chile.

The dominant tree in Patagonia is Nothofagus antarctica, which bonsais
itself rather splendidly in an exposed location, though can't grow in
the most exposed locations. I have a N antarctica in my Bucks garden,
and it is quite fast growing, after 7 yrs it has now equalled in
height the 20-yr old scots pine and picea glauca in the garden. By
having very small leaves and a sparse larch-like branch structure, it
shed wind easily. It grows slower in windier places. A lovely tree.
Nothofagus betuloides is a another wind-resistant tree from southern
Chile, an evergreen this time, but it prefers damp wind to dry, so
probably won't do in the Grampians. Actually does better in a windy
location, because otherwise it grows too fast and then gets knocked
over when it is windy. If you read spanish, you may find further
interesting ideas here. http://www.florachilena.cl/


Patagonia is windy, but it is also very dry. The soil tends to be pretty
sandy, too. There are lots of dwarf plants there, and as much as I would
love to see Junellias growing in Scotland, it won't happen. It is a lot
damper on the Chilean side of the Andes and there are a number of rare
plants down in the Torres del Paine which at first glance might seem
suitable, but, once again, it just won't happen. I've seen Embothrium
coccineum in flower adjacent to icebergs on Lago Grey, so that might be an
option if seeds of those particular plants became available. But only a
couple of k away was Anarthrophyllum desideratum, and there is no way that
will grow in Scotland. So although Patagonia and Southern Chile might seem
to offer plants suitable for the OP, the conditions are too dissimilar for
them to succeed in Scotland.

--
Jeff
(cut "thetape" to reply)

In article ,
echinosum writes:
|
| None of beech, ash or willow are good against wind (dwarf
| willows excepted, and they are too small). Look up Inverewe and see
| what was done there.
|
| You can do better than dwarf willows. I have not imagined the willow
| hedges that are grown all over the inhabited parts of Iceland as
| windbreaks, although it appears that the possibility is not well known in
| this country. ...
| The difficulty I am having is finding out exactly which species they use.
| After a bit of further searching, I'm beginning to wonder if it is S.
| caprea which PFAF notes is grown as windbreaks in places with maritime
| exposure, and is very hardy.

I was thinking about other species, I agree - a lot of them lose
branches badly in wind. S. alba, for example. S. caprea might well
do better.

| Birches are also common in Iceland and northern parts of Norway. They
| tend to be stockier than birches seen in thi scountry. Maybe they are a
| suitable species, or maybe they just grow that way if grown in windy
| conditions.

Probably the latter. Their shape depends very much on whether the
soil is rich or poor, and I can believe that the wind also makes a
major difference. The birches of southern suburbia and the Highlands
are very different in shape.

| A lot of plants which do grow well in windy places don't
| actually grow so well in Britain because it isn't regularly windy enough
| (yes even in much of Scotland) - the lack of regular wind in Britian
| means they grow lanky and then blow over.

Some of that is other factors - birches grow fast and large and lose
branches on the fertile soils of the south of England more readily
than on the poor ones of the uplands.

But tell that to Californians - they think that a force 7 is a howling
gale :-)


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Lots of ideas, thanks.
Dave - I have a little group of Mountain Ash (Rowan) at the opposite corner of the garden - we have a superstition in Scotland that Rowan guards us from witches so it's quite commonly planted near the house. My Gran used to keep a branch above the door. That and Silver Birches are most common around here though S Birch does not like the wind.

Eddy - Heathers - I am going to put in a heather bed at the North end of the back garden area - soil there was highest in acid when I done the test and is pretty exposed so I thought they’d be a good choice for that area. Just need to decide whether to stick to one colour, one type, or just chuck in a variety and see how they go.

Echinosum - wow, where do you get all that stuff from? The guys at my local nursery would be delighted if someone asked for something other than marigolds and roses! Seriously though I never thought of S. Lanata, I call it wooly willow, that could be a possibility. I already planted some picea glauca albertiana conica in some large tubs along the roadside. They have done not too badly over the winter, so I could consider some of the larger, denser varieties. Also salix caprea - goat willow, again good idea haven't seen it locally though - will ask at nursery what they think.

Nick - I’d just love to plant Scots Pines, I seen it in what’s left of the old Caledonia forest and I think it’s awesome, just worried about size, height etc. Though my friend did point out by the time it got to that height it wouldn’t be my problem - maybe I should plant up a few in the bottom of the field just because I can?? Are you sure it would cope with 9" of soil and then rock?

Spider - Sea Buckthorn I’ve never actually seen but googled it and I think it looks a bit too much like gorse for me. But, Tamarix Gallica is supposedly good as a windbreak so I may try and source that it was a plant I had many years ago but never thought about. I'll need to check if it's toxic though (these sheep again - yes, I know they shouldn't eat it but the deal is I can only plant up the garden if there is no poisonus plants so . . )

Plenty food for thought, I can just see the windbreak up the plants in front of it and me sitting in the sun . . . . . ten years time perhaps