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'Mike'[_4_] 19-02-2009 05:20 PM

In time
 
What will your garden look like in 2,000,000 (2 Million) years time?

(The Earth is reputed to be 36,000,000,000 years old. That is 36 Thousand
Million)

Just think, how important are you really? ........ ;-)

Mike

--
.................................................. ..............



moghouse 19-02-2009 05:45 PM

In time
 
On Feb 19, 5:20*pm, "'Mike'" wrote:
(The Earth is reputed to be 36,000,000,000 years old. That is 36 Thousand
Million)

Just think, how important are you really? ........ ;-)


Well the real point is, Mike, all those years of evolution and
improvement have been leading up to..........me!

'Mike'[_4_] 19-02-2009 05:51 PM

In time
 


--
.................................................. ..............
"moghouse" wrote in message
...
On Feb 19, 5:20 pm, "'Mike'" wrote:
(The Earth is reputed to be 36,000,000,000 years old. That is 36 Thousand
Million)

Just think, how important are you really? ........ ;-)


Well the real point is, Mike, all those years of evolution and
improvement have been leading up to..........me!

------------------------------

and you think you are important?

Sorry, NO subscribers to this newsgroup are important, no matter what they
think.

Kindest possible regards

Mike



Stewart Robert Hinsley 19-02-2009 07:23 PM

In time
 
In message
,
moghouse writes
On Feb 19, 5:20*pm, "'Mike'" wrote:
(The Earth is reputed to be 36,000,000,000 years old. That is 36 Thousand
Million)

Just think, how important are you really? ........ ;-)


Well the real point is, Mike, all those years of evolution and
improvement have been leading up to..........me!


He could at least have got the age right. (The Earth is about 4.5
billion years old; the estimates of the time that have passed since the
Big Bang have converged on 13.7 billion years.)
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

'Mike'[_4_] 19-02-2009 07:46 PM

In time
 


--
.................................................. ..............
"Stewart Robert Hinsley" wrote in message
...
In message
,
moghouse writes
On Feb 19, 5:20 pm, "'Mike'" wrote:
(The Earth is reputed to be 36,000,000,000 years old. That is 36
Thousand
Million)

Just think, how important are you really? ........ ;-)


Well the real point is, Mike, all those years of evolution and
improvement have been leading up to..........me!


He could at least have got the age right. (The Earth is about 4.5 billion
years old; the estimates of the time that have passed since the Big Bang
have converged on 13.7 billion years.)
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley


Which goes to show, that no matter which figures you apply, man's presence
on Earth is nothing less than a layer of dust. So I ask again, how important
are you in the minute time we are here?

Not at all, but look how important SOME people think they are :-)))



Jeff[_13_] 19-02-2009 08:11 PM

In time
 
'Mike' wrote:

Christina Websell 19-02-2009 08:12 PM

In time
 

"'Mike'" wrote in message
...


-- .................................................. .............
"Stewart Robert Hinsley" wrote in message
...
In message
,
moghouse writes
On Feb 19, 5:20 pm, "'Mike'" wrote:
(The Earth is reputed to be 36,000,000,000 years old. That is 36
Thousand
Million)

Just think, how important are you really? ........ ;-)

Well the real point is, Mike, all those years of evolution and
improvement have been leading up to..........me!


He could at least have got the age right. (The Earth is about 4.5 billion
years old; the estimates of the time that have passed since the Big Bang
have converged on 13.7 billion years.)
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley


Which goes to show, that no matter which figures you apply, man's presence
on Earth is nothing less than a layer of dust. So I ask again, how
important are you in the minute time we are here?

Not at all, but look how important SOME people think they are :-)))

sigh
I have no idea what my garden will look like even a million years hence.
It's not anything I will have to worry about.
At the moment it's full of snowdrops and the species crocus are rearing
their heads, it's lovely and gives me hope that spring is not far away.




[email protected] 19-02-2009 08:22 PM

In time
 
In article ,
Stewart Robert Hinsley wrote:
In message
,
moghouse writes
On Feb 19, 5:20*pm, "'Mike'" wrote:
(The Earth is reputed to be 36,000,000,000 years old. That is 36 Thousand
Million)

Just think, how important are you really? ........ ;-)


Well the real point is, Mike, all those years of evolution and
improvement have been leading up to..........me!


He could at least have got the age right. (The Earth is about 4.5
billion years old; the estimates of the time that have passed since the
Big Bang have converged on 13.7 billion years.)


Well, given that most current cosmology would be rejected from a
fiction competition on the grounds of insufficient plausibility,
I am disinclined to criticise anyone for choosing an arbitrarily
different figure. I am not inclined to believe him, either, of
course.

Personally, I like Reginald's views on evolution: "in most people
that I know, the process is far from complete." This thread merely
confirms me in by views.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

moghouse 19-02-2009 08:39 PM

In time
 
On Feb 19, 7:46*pm, "'Mike'" wrote:
--
.................................................. .............
"Stewart Robert Hinsley" wrote in ...





In message
,
moghouse writes
On Feb 19, 5:20 pm, "'Mike'" wrote:
(The Earth is reputed to be 36,000,000,000 years old. That is 36
Thousand
Million)


Just think, how important are you really? ........ ;-)


Well the real point is, Mike, all those years of evolution and
improvement have been leading up to..........me!


He could at least have got the age right. (The Earth is about 4.5 billion
years old; the estimates of the time that have passed since the Big Bang
have converged on 13.7 billion years.)
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley


Which goes to show, that no matter which figures you apply, man's presence
on Earth is nothing less than a layer of dust. So I ask again, how important
are you in the minute time we are here?

Not at all, but look how important SOME people think they are :-)))- Hide quoted text -


OK, I confess....I haven't had a big bang lately! I'm really sorry you
have such a low opinion of your self - sadly I think you may be right.

Christina Websell 19-02-2009 09:13 PM

In time
 

wrote in message
...

Well, given that most current cosmology would be rejected from a
fiction competition on the grounds of insufficient plausibility,
I am disinclined to criticise anyone for choosing an arbitrarily
different figure. I am not inclined to believe him, either, of
course.


This is beautiful. I'm going to send it to my German friend, she thinks she
understands English. Until she saw this ;-)
LOL

Tina



Stewart Robert Hinsley 19-02-2009 09:29 PM

In time
 
In message , Christina Websell
writes

wrote in message
...

Well, given that most current cosmology would be rejected from a
fiction competition on the grounds of insufficient plausibility,
I am disinclined to criticise anyone for choosing an arbitrarily
different figure. I am not inclined to believe him, either, of
course.


This is beautiful. I'm going to send it to my German friend, she thinks she
understands English. Until she saw this ;-)
LOL


The way I put the sentiment is that any sufficiently advanced physics is
indistinguishable from nonsense. (Tip of the hat to Sir Arthur.)

--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

[email protected] 19-02-2009 09:51 PM

In time
 
In article ,
Christina Websell wrote:

wrote in message
...

Well, given that most current cosmology would be rejected from a
fiction competition on the grounds of insufficient plausibility,
I am disinclined to criticise anyone for choosing an arbitrarily
different figure. I am not inclined to believe him, either, of
course.


This is beautiful. I'm going to send it to my German friend, she thinks she
understands English. Until she saw this ;-)
LOL


Well, I am a professional pedant :-)


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Fuschia[_2_] 19-02-2009 10:04 PM

In time
 
On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 12:39:52 -0800 (PST), moghouse
wrote:

On Feb 19, 7:46*pm, "'Mike'" wrote:
--
.................................................. .............
"Stewart Robert Hinsley" wrote in ...





In message
,
moghouse writes
On Feb 19, 5:20 pm, "'Mike'" wrote:
(The Earth is reputed to be 36,000,000,000 years old. That is 36
Thousand
Million)


Just think, how important are you really? ........ ;-)


Well the real point is, Mike, all those years of evolution and
improvement have been leading up to..........me!


He could at least have got the age right. (The Earth is about 4.5 billion
years old; the estimates of the time that have passed since the Big Bang
have converged on 13.7 billion years.)
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley


Which goes to show, that no matter which figures you apply, man's presence
on Earth is nothing less than a layer of dust. So I ask again, how important
are you in the minute time we are here?

Not at all, but look how important SOME people think they are :-)))- Hide quoted text -



OK, I confess....I haven't had a big bang lately! I'm really sorry you
have such a low opinion of your self - sadly I think you may be right.


:) :) :)

[email protected] 19-02-2009 10:07 PM

In time
 
In article ,
Stewart Robert Hinsley wrote:
In message , Christina Websell
writes


Well, given that most current cosmology would be rejected from a
fiction competition on the grounds of insufficient plausibility,
I am disinclined to criticise anyone for choosing an arbitrarily
different figure. I am not inclined to believe him, either, of
course.


This is beautiful. I'm going to send it to my German friend, she thinks she
understands English. Until she saw this ;-)
LOL


The way I put the sentiment is that any sufficiently advanced physics is
indistinguishable from nonsense. (Tip of the hat to Sir Arthur.)


Yes :-) Actually, that's not the thing that annoys me most about the
cosmologists - it's the way that all their evidence depends on a very
complicated analysis of the data, which can only be done by assuming
their hypothesis! It's tortoises all the way down ....

We have damn-all direct evidence of general relativity at high space-
time stresses, or even that the red shift is due to recession, and
there are alternative hypotheses that are mathematically consistent
and compatible with known physics. Yes, they're probably wrong, but
that doesn't prove the current hypotheses are right.



Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Christina Websell 19-02-2009 10:28 PM

In time
 

"Stewart Robert Hinsley" wrote in message
...
In message , Christina Websell
writes

wrote in message
...

Well, given that most current cosmology would be rejected from a
fiction competition on the grounds of insufficient plausibility,
I am disinclined to criticise anyone for choosing an arbitrarily
different figure. I am not inclined to believe him, either, of
course.


This is beautiful. I'm going to send it to my German friend, she thinks
she
understands English. Until she saw this ;-)
LOL


The way I put the sentiment is that any sufficiently advanced physics is
indistinguishable from nonsense. (Tip of the hat to Sir Arthur.)


Oh, stop it!




Christina Websell 19-02-2009 10:39 PM

In time
 

wrote in message
...
In article ,
Christina Websell wrote:

wrote in message
...

Well, given that most current cosmology would be rejected from a
fiction competition on the grounds of insufficient plausibility,
I am disinclined to criticise anyone for choosing an arbitrarily
different figure. I am not inclined to believe him, either, of
course.


This is beautiful. I'm going to send it to my German friend, she thinks
she
understands English. Until she saw this ;-)
LOL


Well, I am a professional pedant :-)

Long may you reign. I've been accused of being pedantic myself. Pedants
are important.








Rusty_Hinge[_2_] 19-02-2009 11:21 PM

In time
 
The message
from contains these words:
In article ,
Christina Websell wrote:
wrote in message
...

Well, given that most current cosmology would be rejected from a
fiction competition on the grounds of insufficient plausibility,
I am disinclined to criticise anyone for choosing an arbitrarily
different figure. I am not inclined to believe him, either, of
course.


This is beautiful. I'm going to send it to my German friend, she
thinks she
understands English. Until she saw this ;-)
LOL


Well, I am a professional pedant :-)


So was I, once. I'm now an enthusiastic amateur.

--
Rusty
Direct reply to: horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co period uk
Separator in search of a sig

Rusty_Hinge[_2_] 19-02-2009 11:25 PM

In time
 
The message
from contains these words:

Yes :-) Actually, that's not the thing that annoys me most about the
cosmologists - it's the way that all their evidence depends on a very
complicated analysis of the data, which can only be done by assuming
their hypothesis! It's tortoises all the way down ....


While I haven't had the time to look, ITYF it's turtles...

We have damn-all direct evidence of general relativity at high space-
time stresses, or even that the red shift is due to recession,


Well, it's a good starting-point. Recession creates unemployment,
unemployment results in a lot of ungruntled ex-employees, many of whom
shift to the red...

and
there are alternative hypotheses that are mathematically consistent
and compatible with known physics. Yes, they're probably wrong, but
that doesn't prove the current hypotheses are right.


Do these admit the existence of trolls?

--
Rusty
Direct reply to: horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co period uk
Separator in search of a sig

Rusty_Hinge[_2_] 19-02-2009 11:26 PM

In time
 
The message
from "Christina Websell" contains
these words:
"Stewart Robert Hinsley" wrote in message
...
In message , Christina Websell
writes
wrote in message
...

Well, given that most current cosmology would be rejected from a
fiction competition on the grounds of insufficient plausibility,
I am disinclined to criticise anyone for choosing an arbitrarily
different figure. I am not inclined to believe him, either, of
course.

This is beautiful. I'm going to send it to my German friend, she thinks
she
understands English. Until she saw this ;-)
LOL


The way I put the sentiment is that any sufficiently advanced physics is
indistinguishable from nonsense. (Tip of the hat to Sir Arthur.)


Oh, stop it!


I'm afraid the whole thing is going far too fast for that, and you're
not allowed to get off, either.

--
Rusty
Direct reply to: horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co period uk
Separator in search of a sig

Rusty_Hinge[_2_] 20-02-2009 12:02 AM

In time
 
The message
from "Christina Websell" contains
these words:

Long may you reign. I've been accused of being pedantic myself. Pedants
are important.


I beg your pard^h^h^oh! As you were - IMPORTANT...

--
Rusty
Direct reply to: horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co period uk
Separator in search of a sig

[email protected] 20-02-2009 08:36 AM

In time
 
In article ,
Rusty_Hinge wrote:

Yes :-) Actually, that's not the thing that annoys me most about the
cosmologists - it's the way that all their evidence depends on a very
complicated analysis of the data, which can only be done by assuming
their hypothesis! It's tortoises all the way down ....


While I haven't had the time to look, ITYF it's turtles...


Yes, but you know how much the average person knows about zoology!

We have damn-all direct evidence of general relativity at high space-
time stresses, or even that the red shift is due to recession,


Well, it's a good starting-point. Recession creates unemployment,
unemployment results in a lot of ungruntled ex-employees, many of whom
shift to the red...


You have the methods of cosmological proof down to a T.

and
there are alternative hypotheses that are mathematically consistent
and compatible with known physics. Yes, they're probably wrong, but
that doesn't prove the current hypotheses are right.


Do these admit the existence of trolls?


Ah. Now, THERE, we have observational evidence. As Einstein didn't
quite say, any theory that doesn't admit the existence of trolls has
to be discounted. And Hawking has said that his theories do admit them.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Charlie Pridham[_2_] 20-02-2009 09:04 AM

In time
 
In article ,
says...
The message
from "Christina Websell" contains
these words:

Long may you reign. I've been accused of being pedantic myself. Pedants
are important.


I beg your pard^h^h^oh! As you were - IMPORTANT...


There we are Mike we have proved that at least one group of people are
important :~)
--
Charlie Pridham, Gardening in Cornwall
www.roselandhouse.co.uk
Holders of national collections of Clematis viticella cultivars and
Lapageria rosea

'Mike'[_4_] 20-02-2009 09:10 AM

In time
 


--
.................................................. ..............
"Charlie Pridham" wrote in message
T...
In article ,
says...
The message
from "Christina Websell" contains
these words:

Long may you reign. I've been accused of being pedantic myself.
Pedants
are important.


I beg your pard^h^h^oh! As you were - IMPORTANT...


There we are Mike we have proved that at least one group of people are
important :~)
--
Charlie Pridham, Gardening in Cornwall
www.roselandhouse.co.uk
Holders of national collections of Clematis viticella cultivars and
Lapageria rosea


I think even more people should be impotent. Some should not be allowed to
vote or breed.



Stewart Robert Hinsley 20-02-2009 09:27 AM

In time
 
In message ,
writes
We have damn-all direct evidence of general relativity at high space-
time stresses, or even that the red shift is due to recession


I disagree with the position that there is a bright line between
observation and inference, but I presume that you consider the various
standard candle techniques, the correlation between luminosity and
redshift, and the variation of galaxy morphology with redshift to be
indirect evidence. Would the light echo of SN 1987A be the greatest
distance that you accept as directly measured?
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

Martin Brown 20-02-2009 11:27 AM

In time
 
wrote:
In article ,
Stewart Robert Hinsley wrote:
In message , Christina Websell
writes
Well, given that most current cosmology would be rejected from a
fiction competition on the grounds of insufficient plausibility,
I am disinclined to criticise anyone for choosing an arbitrarily
different figure. I am not inclined to believe him, either, of
course.


This is beautiful. I'm going to send it to my German friend, she thinks she
understands English. Until she saw this ;-)
LOL


The way I put the sentiment is that any sufficiently advanced physics is
indistinguishable from nonsense. (Tip of the hat to Sir Arthur.)


Yes :-) Actually, that's not the thing that annoys me most about the
cosmologists - it's the way that all their evidence depends on a very
complicated analysis of the data, which can only be done by assuming
their hypothesis! It's tortoises all the way down ....


Turtles...

Not quite. We are on the edge of a golden observational age where the
newest telescopes with high resolution and a wide range of wavelengths
will be able to contain theorists wilder flights of fancy.

Standard candles that can be seen at great distances are pretty well
understood these days. And lots of amateurs keep regular watch.

We have damn-all direct evidence of general relativity at high space-
time stresses,


Actually we do have some pretty good examples in the millisecond pulsars
for instance. Shortly after the first discovery of a binary ms pulsar an
error was found in the FORTRAN converter of the early VSOP computer
algebra generated planetary ephemeris thanks to a systematic error in
the GR predicted delay observed when the signals passed near to Jupiter.
The spin down rate matches the GR predictions very nicely.

or even that the red shift is due to recession, and


We don't know this for certain (but it is likely to be true for the vast
majority of normal light emitting stars), but for some extremely compact
objects some of the redshift could come from photons having to climb out
of a very deep gravitational potential well. But on a galactic scale
such objects seem rather unlikely except near the central black hole.

And we do see a picket fence of intervening Lyman alpha absorbtion lines
in the continuum of allegedly distant sources at high redshift.

there are alternative hypotheses that are mathematically consistent
and compatible with known physics. Yes, they're probably wrong, but
that doesn't prove the current hypotheses are right.


Indeed. But the evidence for a Big Bang cosmology is pretty compelling.
There are very few die hard Steady Staters remaining these days.

Regards,
Martin Brown

moghouse 20-02-2009 12:14 PM

In time
 
On Feb 20, 9:10*am, "'Mike'" wrote:

I think even more people should be impotent. Some should not be allowed to
vote or breed.-


Quite right! I am prepared to take over the voting and breeding duties
of anybody that you feel is not fit!

[email protected] 20-02-2009 12:49 PM

In time
 
In article ,
Stewart Robert Hinsley wrote:

We have damn-all direct evidence of general relativity at high space-
time stresses, or even that the red shift is due to recession


I disagree with the position that there is a bright line between
observation and inference,


Eh? I never claimed there was one. I was drawing a (blurred) distinction
between direct and indirect evidence - where the former rests on a basis
of only theories themselves established by direct evidence, culminating
in actual measurements.

but I presume that you consider the various
standard candle techniques, the correlation between luminosity and
redshift, and the variation of galaxy morphology with redshift to be
indirect evidence.


Of course, because they are.

Would the light echo of SN 1987A be the greatest
distance that you accept as directly measured?


I would need to study the paper in detail, to see whether it relies on
any so-far-unproven hypotheses.


This is off-group, so will be my penultimate post.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

[email protected] 20-02-2009 12:56 PM

In time
 
In article ,
Martin Brown wrote:

Standard candles that can be seen at great distances are pretty well
understood these days. And lots of amateurs keep regular watch.


Their standardness is all based on indirect evidence. For example,
cosmologists believe that the laws of physics settled down only
shortly after the big bang, so why are we assuming that all physical
constants are the same across all space and time since then?

We have damn-all direct evidence of general relativity at high space-
time stresses,


Actually we do have some pretty good examples in the millisecond pulsars
for instance. Shortly after the first discovery of a binary ms pulsar an
error was found in the FORTRAN converter of the early VSOP computer
algebra generated planetary ephemeris thanks to a systematic error in
the GR predicted delay observed when the signals passed near to Jupiter.
The spin down rate matches the GR predictions very nicely.


That is LOW space-time stresses, not enough to distinguish Einstein's
formula from several others.

there are alternative hypotheses that are mathematically consistent
and compatible with known physics. Yes, they're probably wrong, but
that doesn't prove the current hypotheses are right.


Indeed. But the evidence for a Big Bang cosmology is pretty compelling.
There are very few die hard Steady Staters remaining these days.


Why assume that is the only alternative? There are several variants
of the big bang that would enable wildly different ages for the
universe.


This will be my last post on this topic! Anyone who wants me to respond
further should send Email.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Bob Hobden 20-02-2009 05:24 PM

In time
 

"'Mike'" wrote...
What will your garden look like in 2,000,000 (2 Million) years time?

(The Earth is reputed to be 36,000,000,000 years old. That is 36 Thousand
Million)

Just think, how important are you really? ........ ;-)

If the worlds population keeps breeding like it is then I don't see a world
then.

--
Regards
Bob Hobden




'Mike'[_4_] 20-02-2009 05:33 PM

In time
 


--
.................................................. ..............
"Bob Hobden" wrote in message
...

"'Mike'" wrote...
What will your garden look like in 2,000,000 (2 Million) years time?

(The Earth is reputed to be 36,000,000,000 years old. That is 36 Thousand
Million)

Just think, how important are you really? ........ ;-)

If the worlds population keeps breeding like it is then I don't see a
world then.

--
Regards
Bob Hobden




I see a World Bob but not with a Human Race in/on it as we know now. Have
you seen the time lapse video of a Motorway 'left to nature'?

My point is, that so many people think that they are 'so important', but in
reality they are like the hand in a bucket of water analogy. Pull your hand
out of a bucket of water and a few ripples will appear, but they will soon
die down. 'THE IMPORTANT' people, or those who feel they are important, are
like that, soon forgotten and not important at all. Historical figures
maybe, but who on this/these newsgroups will EVER hit the History books?

NONE



Christina Websell 20-02-2009 07:12 PM

In time
 

"'Mike'" wrote in message
...


--
.................................................. .............
"Bob Hobden" wrote in message
...

"'Mike'" wrote...
What will your garden look like in 2,000,000 (2 Million) years time?

(The Earth is reputed to be 36,000,000,000 years old. That is 36
Thousand Million)

Just think, how important are you really? ........ ;-)

If the worlds population keeps breeding like it is then I don't see a
world then.

--
Regards
Bob Hobden




I see a World Bob but not with a Human Race in/on it as we know now. Have
you seen the time lapse video of a Motorway 'left to nature'?

My point is, that so many people think that they are 'so important', but
in reality they are like the hand in a bucket of water analogy. Pull your
hand out of a bucket of water and a few ripples will appear, but they will
soon die down. 'THE IMPORTANT' people, or those who feel they are
important, are like that, soon forgotten and not important at all.
Historical figures maybe, but who on this/these newsgroups will EVER hit
the History books?

NONE

But why would we want to? It's not my intention by joining in with
newsgroups that interest me to become a famous historical figure!
I don't quite follow your logic.
Everyone is important in their own way, certainly to their family and often
in ways that they contribute to society. It's certainly not necessary in my
opinion that you have to hit the history books to be *important.*




moghouse 20-02-2009 07:19 PM

In time
 
On Feb 20, 5:33*pm, "'Mike'" wrote:
you seen the time lapse video of a Motorway 'left to nature'?


My point is, that so many people think that they are 'so important', but in
reality they are like the hand in a bucket of water analogy. Pull your hand
out of a bucket of water and a few ripples will appear, but they will soon
die down. 'THE IMPORTANT' people, or those who feel they are important, are
like that, soon forgotten and not important at all. Historical figures
maybe, but who on this/these newsgroups will EVER hit the History books?


We are underwhelmed by your insignificance. You are but a grain of
sand on the beach of life.

Whereas the all the rest of us on this group are the real deal!

Rusty_Hinge[_2_] 20-02-2009 07:31 PM

In time
 
The message
from Martin Brown contains these words:

/snip/

Actually we do have some pretty good examples in the millisecond pulsars
for instance. Shortly after the first discovery of a binary ms pulsar an
error was found in the FORTRAN converter of the early VSOP computer
algebra generated planetary ephemeris thanks to a systematic error in
the GR predicted delay observed when the signals passed near to Jupiter.
The spin down rate matches the GR predictions very nicely.


Ah, early 486 chip then?

or even that the red shift is due to recession, and


We don't know this for certain (but it is likely to be true for the vast
majority of normal light emitting stars), but for some extremely compact
objects some of the redshift could come from photons having to climb out
of a very deep gravitational potential well. But on a galactic scale
such objects seem rather unlikely except near the central black hole.


And we do see a picket fence of intervening Lyman alpha absorbtion lines
in the continuum of allegedly distant sources at high redshift.


there are alternative hypotheses that are mathematically consistent
and compatible with known physics. Yes, they're probably wrong, but
that doesn't prove the current hypotheses are right.


Indeed. But the evidence for a Big Bang cosmology is pretty compelling.
There are very few die hard Steady Staters remaining these days.


Depending on what you mean by that. There are plenty who believe that
the universe is continuously expansing and then falling in on itself in
an unending cycle of big crunches ans big bangs.

There are also some who posit continuous creation/generation of matter
at the centre of the universe, and yet others who maintain that by means
of a contorted space/time continuum what goes out of the fringes appears
to be coming in through the centre...

Anyway, how come the universe doesn't rank a capital letter, and Belgium does?

--
Rusty
Direct reply to: horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co period uk
Separator in search of a sig

Martin Brown 20-02-2009 08:59 PM

In time
 
wrote:
In article ,
Martin Brown wrote:


Standard candles that can be seen at great distances are pretty well
understood these days. And lots of amateurs keep regular watch.


Their standardness is all based on indirect evidence. For example,


It is kind of difficult to go out and examine these things directly.

We can only base our models on what can be observed from the Earth.
Until fairly recently it was possible to claim that "dark matter"
consisted of old biros, chair legs and sticks of rhubarb. This is now
ruled out by observational evidence.

Don't blame cosmologists for their inability to go out and do controlled
experiments. They are stuck with the problem of trying to work out how a
forest works by looking at the trees they can see.

You can gripe about theorists though. Some of the wilder ideas of string
theory and dark energy I find hard to take seriously.

cosmologists believe that the laws of physics settled down only
shortly after the big bang, so why are we assuming that all physical
constants are the same across all space and time since then?


Actually they don't entirely assume that.

Conjectures about what would happen if the "constants" of nature were
evolving are considered in some of the classic graduate textbooks.

We have damn-all direct evidence of general relativity at high space-
time stresses,

Actually we do have some pretty good examples in the millisecond pulsars
for instance. Shortly after the first discovery of a binary ms pulsar an
error was found in the FORTRAN converter of the early VSOP computer
algebra generated planetary ephemeris thanks to a systematic error in
the GR predicted delay observed when the signals passed near to Jupiter.
The spin down rate matches the GR predictions very nicely.


That is LOW space-time stresses, not enough to distinguish Einstein's
formula from several others.


It is pretty difficult to observe things any closer into the crunch
zone. The Blandford-Znajeck model for how radio galaxies are powered
still seems to look reasonable decades later. There are refinements.

there are alternative hypotheses that are mathematically consistent
and compatible with known physics. Yes, they're probably wrong, but
that doesn't prove the current hypotheses are right.

Indeed. But the evidence for a Big Bang cosmology is pretty compelling.
There are very few die hard Steady Staters remaining these days.


Why assume that is the only alternative? There are several variants
of the big bang that would enable wildly different ages for the
universe.


Not that wildly different.
Nothing approaching the 6000 years that the dittoheads in Merkinland
tend to want (matching Bishop Ushers guestimate).

This will be my last post on this topic! Anyone who wants me to respond
further should send Email.


I'd suggest taking it to sci.astro but the place is populated with
complete nutters of the Einstein "WAS WRONG" camp.

It might be easier to continue it here with [OT] in the headers.

Regards,
Martin Brown

Martin Brown 20-02-2009 09:20 PM

In time
 
Rusty_Hinge wrote:
The message
from Martin Brown contains these words:

/snip/

Actually we do have some pretty good examples in the millisecond pulsars
for instance. Shortly after the first discovery of a binary ms pulsar an
error was found in the FORTRAN converter of the early VSOP computer
algebra generated planetary ephemeris thanks to a systematic error in
the GR predicted delay observed when the signals passed near to Jupiter.
The spin down rate matches the GR predictions very nicely.


Ah, early 486 chip then?


No a long way before that. I am not sure if the 286 had been invented
back then. I heard about it first hand in 1984. ISTR it had something to
do with continuation cards in the FORTRAN conversion output of a
symbolic algebra system. It was big iron mainframe stuff.

http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/p...993/press.html

This quirk isn't mentioned in their Nobel prize citation, but it was
quite interesting at the time. Their observations were accurate enough
to find fault in a solar system ephemeris model that was unchallenged in
its precision and widely assumed to be good enough for all practical
purposes.

there are alternative hypotheses that are mathematically consistent
and compatible with known physics. Yes, they're probably wrong, but
that doesn't prove the current hypotheses are right.


Indeed. But the evidence for a Big Bang cosmology is pretty compelling.
There are very few die hard Steady Staters remaining these days.


Depending on what you mean by that. There are plenty who believe that
the universe is continuously expansing and then falling in on itself in
an unending cycle of big crunches ans big bangs.


Some of these ideas can be ruled out observationally. Unless you invoke
a perverse deity to tweak things around on an ad hoc basis. One nasty
world model invokes demons whose job it is to decide on surprising
answers to any new questions that experimentalists decide to ask.

It is just so much more appealing to have the laws of physics the same
for all observers in an inertial frame of reference.

Multiverse conjectures allow for spanning all possible universes but
with only the interesting ones really showing up. A bit like the way
wave propagation of light simplifies to geometrical optics when viewed
at the larger scale.

There are also some who posit continuous creation/generation of matter
at the centre of the universe, and yet others who maintain that by means
of a contorted space/time continuum what goes out of the fringes appears
to be coming in through the centre...

Anyway, how come the universe doesn't rank a capital letter, and Belgium does?


I would refer you to HHGG

Regards,
Martin Brown

Fuschia[_2_] 20-02-2009 09:30 PM

In time
 
On Fri, 20 Feb 2009 19:12:37 -0000, "Christina Websell"
wrote:


"'Mike'" wrote in message
...


--
.................................................. .............
"Bob Hobden" wrote in message
...

"'Mike'" wrote...
What will your garden look like in 2,000,000 (2 Million) years time?

(The Earth is reputed to be 36,000,000,000 years old. That is 36
Thousand Million)

Just think, how important are you really? ........ ;-)

If the worlds population keeps breeding like it is then I don't see a
world then.

--
Regards
Bob Hobden




I see a World Bob but not with a Human Race in/on it as we know now. Have
you seen the time lapse video of a Motorway 'left to nature'?

My point is, that so many people think that they are 'so important', but
in reality they are like the hand in a bucket of water analogy. Pull your
hand out of a bucket of water and a few ripples will appear, but they will
soon die down. 'THE IMPORTANT' people, or those who feel they are
important, are like that, soon forgotten and not important at all.
Historical figures maybe, but who on this/these newsgroups will EVER hit
the History books?

NONE

But why would we want to? It's not my intention by joining in with
newsgroups that interest me to become a famous historical figure!
I don't quite follow your logic.
Everyone is important in their own way, certainly to their family and often
in ways that they contribute to society. It's certainly not necessary in my
opinion that you have to hit the history books to be *important.*


Don't worry about it. He comes out with these things from time to
time, usually just copied from somewhere else on the web, to start an
argument. Unfortunately he's not clever enough to carry it through and
ends up looking even more stupid.

'Mike'[_4_] 20-02-2009 10:25 PM

In time
 


--
.................................................. ..............
"Fuschia" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 20 Feb 2009 19:12:37 -0000, "Christina Websell"
wrote:


"'Mike'" wrote in message
.. .


--
.................................................. .............
"Bob Hobden" wrote in message
...

"'Mike'" wrote...
What will your garden look like in 2,000,000 (2 Million) years time?

(The Earth is reputed to be 36,000,000,000 years old. That is 36
Thousand Million)

Just think, how important are you really? ........ ;-)

If the worlds population keeps breeding like it is then I don't see a
world then.

--
Regards
Bob Hobden




I see a World Bob but not with a Human Race in/on it as we know now.
Have
you seen the time lapse video of a Motorway 'left to nature'?

My point is, that so many people think that they are 'so important', but
in reality they are like the hand in a bucket of water analogy. Pull
your
hand out of a bucket of water and a few ripples will appear, but they
will
soon die down. 'THE IMPORTANT' people, or those who feel they are
important, are like that, soon forgotten and not important at all.
Historical figures maybe, but who on this/these newsgroups will EVER hit
the History books?

NONE

But why would we want to? It's not my intention by joining in with
newsgroups that interest me to become a famous historical figure!
I don't quite follow your logic.
Everyone is important in their own way, certainly to their family and
often
in ways that they contribute to society. It's certainly not necessary in
my
opinion that you have to hit the history books to be *important.*


Don't worry about it. He comes out with these things from time to
time, usually just copied from somewhere else on the web, to start an
argument. Unfortunately he's not clever enough to carry it through and
ends up looking even more stupid.


My point exactly. "YOU" are cleverer than me, in your eyes. And being
cleverer makes you more important? 'Higher' than me? And lots of others? You
are important to you and no one else. Just as I am not important to you. I
am insignificant, but I acknowledge that, it's just a pity that those who
feel 'so' important are unable to see that too.



'Mike'[_4_] 20-02-2009 10:28 PM

In time
 


--
.................................................. ..............
"moghouse" wrote in message
...
On Feb 20, 5:33 pm, "'Mike'" wrote:
you seen the time lapse video of a Motorway 'left to nature'?


My point is, that so many people think that they are 'so important', but
in
reality they are like the hand in a bucket of water analogy. Pull your
hand
out of a bucket of water and a few ripples will appear, but they will soon
die down. 'THE IMPORTANT' people, or those who feel they are important,
are
like that, soon forgotten and not important at all. Historical figures
maybe, but who on this/these newsgroups will EVER hit the History books?


We are underwhelmed by your insignificance. You are but a grain of
sand on the beach of life.

Whereas the all the rest of us on this group are the real deal!

--------------------------------------------------


We are ALL but a grain of sand on the beach of life, but some cannot see it
:-(



Sacha[_3_] 20-02-2009 10:42 PM

In time
 
On 20/2/09 19:12, in article , "Christina
Websell" wrote:


"'Mike'" wrote in message
...


--
.................................................. .............
"Bob Hobden" wrote in message
...

"'Mike'" wrote...
What will your garden look like in 2,000,000 (2 Million) years time?

(The Earth is reputed to be 36,000,000,000 years old. That is 36
Thousand Million)

Just think, how important are you really? ........ ;-)

If the worlds population keeps breeding like it is then I don't see a
world then.

--
Regards
Bob Hobden




I see a World Bob but not with a Human Race in/on it as we know now. Have
you seen the time lapse video of a Motorway 'left to nature'?

My point is, that so many people think that they are 'so important', but
in reality they are like the hand in a bucket of water analogy. Pull your
hand out of a bucket of water and a few ripples will appear, but they will
soon die down. 'THE IMPORTANT' people, or those who feel they are
important, are like that, soon forgotten and not important at all.
Historical figures maybe, but who on this/these newsgroups will EVER hit
the History books?

NONE

But why would we want to? It's not my intention by joining in with
newsgroups that interest me to become a famous historical figure!
I don't quite follow your logic.
Everyone is important in their own way, certainly to their family and often
in ways that they contribute to society. It's certainly not necessary in my
opinion that you have to hit the history books to be *important.*



Oh, Christina, you're being very polite but - this person does this sort of
thing all the time because it's the only way he can get attention. He
starts absolutely ridiculous threads on things of no importance or relevance
and he does that a lot. Any minute now he'll tell you about what happened
on his last cruise!
He has a 'thing' about newsgroups being 'led' by a select number of people.
It's been going on for years and years and it's infinitely boring. What he
really means is "nobody's paying me any attention". He's the Violet
Elizabeth Bott of urg and many unfortunate other groups, I'm afraid.

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.com
South Devon
Perennials & shrubs online


hugh 20-02-2009 11:15 PM

In time
 
In message , 'Mike'
writes
................................................. ..............
"moghouse" wrote in message
...
On Feb 20, 5:33 pm, "'Mike'" wrote:
you seen the time lapse video of a Motorway 'left to nature'?


My point is, that so many people think that they are 'so important', but
in
reality they are like the hand in a bucket of water analogy. Pull your
hand
out of a bucket of water and a few ripples will appear, but they will soon
die down. 'THE IMPORTANT' people, or those who feel they are important,
are
like that, soon forgotten and not important at all. Historical figures
maybe, but who on this/these newsgroups will EVER hit the History books?


We are underwhelmed by your insignificance. You are but a grain of
sand on the beach of life.

Whereas the all the rest of us on this group are the real deal!

--------------------------------------------------


We are ALL but a grain of sand on the beach of life, but some cannot see it

I don't see it because you are a f****ing idiot and reply below the
signature line so it's all in blue and I can't be bothered to read it.
From other people's replies I'm not missing much
--
hugh
Reply to address is valid at the time of posting


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