wrote:
In article ,
Bob Hobden wrote:
Pathogens in Horse dung? Please advise what and any scientific papers that
back it up. I know it is a big carrier of Tetanus but not heard about
anything else of concern.

Try anthrax.

However, with both tetanus and anthrax, you are likely to have trouble
only if the dung comes from a stable where they shovel dead horses
out with the bedding. Not generally the case ....


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
Cl. tetani; Cl. Welchii; various E.coli and salmonella strains and
Cryptosporidium all are risks from the use of farmyard and stable
manures. Historically, the biggest risk to agricultural labourers and
gardeners has been tetanus and gas-gangrene infections of, often, very
trivial wounds. The extent to which the organic veg growing fad has been
responsible for the increase, over the last few decades is unestimated.
Best to keep your AT injections up to date and wash and boil everything
that you eat from your veg / salad patch

yrs
rjbl

In article ,
RJBL wrote:

Cl. tetani; Cl. Welchii; various E.coli and salmonella strains and
Cryptosporidium all are risks from the use of farmyard and stable
manures. Historically, the biggest risk to agricultural labourers and
gardeners has been tetanus and gas-gangrene infections of, often, very
trivial wounds. The extent to which the organic veg growing fad has been
responsible for the increase, over the last few decades is unestimated.
Best to keep your AT injections up to date and wash and boil everything
that you eat from your veg / salad patch

Oh, nuts! WHAT increase in tetanus and gas-gangrene in the UK?

The historical dangers were because a LOT of farm animals died from
tetanus, anthrax etc. and the spores were everywhere. Well, they
still are, but are not transmitted by that route any more because
of the efficiency with which infected animals are detected and
disposed of. Yes, keep your tetanus innoculation up to date, but
don't use two century old information as a guide to safe practices.

A lot of the others you mention are something that most people have
some immunity to, or even aren't pathogens at all (for example, you
NEED E. coli to stay healthy). There is also increasing evidence
that preventing children from being exposed to them increases the
risk of much more serious problems. Exercise your immune system
and stop fussing.

Yes, of course, some people are at special risk. Don't START
training your immune system in old age or when ill, and so on.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

wrote:
In article ,
RJBL wrote:


A lot of the others you mention are something that most people have
some immunity to, or even aren't pathogens at all (for example, you
NEED E. coli to stay healthy). There is also increasing evidence
that preventing children from being exposed to them increases the
risk of much more serious problems. Exercise your immune system
and stop fussing.

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Depends which E. coli you are talking about. Many strains are highly
pathogenic; I wouldn't like 0157 in me, for example, immunosuppressed or
not. More info here if you don't mind being too bored:
http://textbookofbacteriology.net/e.coli.html

--
Jeff

In article ,
Jeff Layman wrote:

Depends which E. coli you are talking about. Many strains are highly
pathogenic; I wouldn't like 0157 in me, for example, immunosuppressed or
not. More info here if you don't mind being too bored:
http://textbookofbacteriology.net/e.coli.html

For "highly", read "slightly"!

I wouldn't worry about 0157 - indeed, I may have it, for all I know
to the contrary - as it is dangerous only to the very young, very
old and immunosuppressed. If you look at the reference you gave,
most of the pathogenic forms are described as dangerous to infants.

All forms (even the symbiotic ones) are dangerous if they grow in
the wrong place, which is one of the reasons you need immunity to
a wide range of them.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In article ,
wrote:

In article ,
Jeff Layman wrote:

Depends which E. coli you are talking about. Many strains are highly
pathogenic; I wouldn't like 0157 in me, for example, immunosuppressed or
not. More info here if you don't mind being too bored:
http://textbookofbacteriology.net/e.coli.html

For "highly", read "slightly"!

I wouldn't worry about 0157 - indeed, I may have it, for all I know
to the contrary - as it is dangerous only to the very young, very
old and immunosuppressed. If you look at the reference you gave,
most of the pathogenic forms are described as dangerous to infants.

In the Odwall Apple juice case an 18 month old infant died. In the Dole
spinach case, 3 octagenarians died, and in the latest, Nestle Toll House
Refrigerated Cookie Dough, no one died. However, it is reported that e.
coli O157:H7 really opens the sluices at both ends. Maybe not deadly,
but not a walk in the park, either.

The FDA suggested that you "contact your health care professional
immediately, if you or your family have recently eaten recalled cookie
dough and have had stomach cramps, vomiting, or diarrhea, with or
without bloody stools."

'Nuff said.

All forms (even the symbiotic ones) are dangerous if they grow in
the wrong place, which is one of the reasons you need immunity to
a wide range of them.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
--

- Billy

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and
find out for themselves.
Will Rogers

http://countercurrents.org/roberts020709.htm
http://www.tomdispatch.com/p/zinn

wrote:
In article ,
Jeff Layman wrote:

Depends which E. coli you are talking about. Many strains are highly
pathogenic; I wouldn't like 0157 in me, for example, immunosuppressed or
not. More info here if you don't mind being too bored:
http://textbookofbacteriology.net/e.coli.html

For "highly", read "slightly"!

Depends. May be true for neonatal meningitis (1:2000), but certainly not
for UTI. Quote "Uropathogenic E. coli (UPEC) cause 90% of the urinary tract
infections (UTI) in anatomically-normal, unobstructed urinary tracts.". I
am amazed that the figure is so high. There are a lot of women out there
with UTIs caused by UPEC.

I wouldn't worry about 0157 - indeed, I may have it, for all I know
to the contrary - as it is dangerous only to the very young, very
old and immunosuppressed.

I'm not arguing about how dangerous it is, merely commenting on
pathogenicity. I've not had E. coli gut problems, but have had Salmonella,
so can speak from experience about the pathogenicity of bacteria affecting
the gut. Certainly not dangerous, but very debilitating, especially in a
tropical climate.

If you look at the reference you gave,
most of the pathogenic forms are described as dangerous to infants.

True for neonatal meningitis (couldn't really be anything else with that
name!). but not so for UTI - see above quote.

All forms (even the symbiotic ones) are dangerous if they grow in
the wrong place, which is one of the reasons you need immunity to
a wide range of them.

I definitely agree with you on that. Constant exposure to low levels of
bacteria is needed to keep the immune system ticking over properly. "Use it
or lose it" applies here!

--
Jeff

In article ,
Jeff Layman wrote:

Depends. May be true for neonatal meningitis (1:2000), but certainly not
for UTI. Quote "Uropathogenic E. coli (UPEC) cause 90% of the urinary tract
infections (UTI) in anatomically-normal, unobstructed urinary tracts.". I
am amazed that the figure is so high. There are a lot of women out there
with UTIs caused by UPEC.

I believe that you have misunderstood that. What I have been told
and read is that ALL variants are uropathogenic, if they establish
there, and the vast majority of such infections are normal gut flora
that have got into the wrong place. And it's not rare in men, either!
So what it means is that 90% of such UTIs are E. coli, variant unknown.
They don't usually bother to serotype further, as it doesn't affect
the treatment.

So one recommendation should definitely be not to indulge in kinky
practices with fresh horse manure :-)

More seriously, that is the reason for the various hand washing and
body washing order recommendations, and instructions to parents on how
to bathe children, especially girls.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

The message
from contains these words:

In article ,
RJBL wrote:

Cl. tetani; Cl. Welchii; various E.coli and salmonella strains and
Cryptosporidium all are risks from the use of farmyard and stable
manures. Historically, the biggest risk to agricultural labourers and
gardeners has been tetanus and gas-gangrene infections of, often, very
trivial wounds. The extent to which the organic veg growing fad has been
responsible for the increase, over the last few decades is unestimated.
Best to keep your AT injections up to date and wash and boil everything
that you eat from your veg / salad patch

Oh, nuts! WHAT increase in tetanus and gas-gangrene in the UK?

Hist, tis "unestimated"... a scientific benchmark beloved of those who
misunderestimate the term "historically"

Janet

it is a trade off, but organically produced food is safer according to this
report......

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31766160...h-food_safety/

"Avoiding MRSA
Follow these tips to help reduce your risk of exposure to MRSA in meats:
Shop smarter
Look for the USDA organic seal. Organic meat might be less likely to have
antibiotic-resistant or disease-causing organisms, as the animal hasn't been fed
antibiotics, hormones to promote growth, or animal by-products. Other labels, such as
no antibiotics added, are not verified by independent testing.
Log on to eatwellguide.org to search for listings of stores and restaurants that
offer no-antibiotic-use, grass-fed, or organic meats.
Stock up on nonmeat protein sources such as beans, lentils, and tofu and swap them in
for meat now and then. Visit prevention.com/veggies for recipe ideas. "

"You may not have the same close contact with meat that a processing plant worker
has, but scientists warn there is reason for concern: Most of us handle meat daily,
as we bread chicken cutlets, trim fat from pork, or form chopped beef into burgers.
Cooking does kill the microbe, but MRSA thrives on skin, so you can contract it by
touching infected raw meat when you have a cut on your hand, explains Stuart Levy,
MD, a Tufts University professor of microbiology and medicine. MRSA also flourishes
in nasal passages, so touching your nose after touching meat gives the bug another
way into your body, adds Smith.

Tainted meat exposed
Extensive research in Europe and Asia has found MRSA in many food animal species, and
in the past year, US researchers have begun testing meat sold here. Scientists at
Louisiana State University Agricultural Center tested 120 cuts of locally purchased
meat and found MRSA in 4 percent of the pork and 1 percent of the beef. A University
of Maryland scientist found it in 1 out of 300 pork samples from the Washington, DC,
area. And a study in Canada (from which we import thousands of tons of meat annually)
found MRSA in 9 percent of 212 pork samples. The percentages may be small, but
according to the USDA, Americans eat more than 180 million pounds of meat every day.
"When you consider the tiny size of the meat studies, the fact that they found any
contamination at all is amazing," says Steven Roach, public health program director
for Food Animal Concerns Trust.

In some cases, the tainted meat probably came from infected animals; in others,
already infected humans could have passed on MRSA to the meat during processing.
Regardless of where it originated, even a small proportion of contaminated meat could
mean a tremendous amount of MRSA out there. "We need more US research to figure out
what's going on," says Roach."

Somewhere between zone 5 and 6 tucked along the shore of Lake Michigan
on the council grounds of the Fox, Mascouten, Potawatomi, and Winnebago

wrote:
In article ,
RJBL wrote:
Cl. tetani; Cl. Welchii; various E.coli and salmonella strains and
Cryptosporidium all are risks from the use of farmyard and stable
manures. Historically, the biggest risk to agricultural labourers and
gardeners has been tetanus and gas-gangrene infections of, often, very
trivial wounds. The extent to which the organic veg growing fad has been
responsible for the increase, over the last few decades is unestimated.
Best to keep your AT injections up to date and wash and boil everything
that you eat from your veg / salad patch

Oh, nuts! WHAT increase in tetanus and gas-gangrene in the UK?

The historical dangers were because a LOT of farm animals died from
tetanus, anthrax etc. and the spores were everywhere. Well, they
still are, but are not transmitted by that route any more because
of the efficiency with which infected animals are detected and
disposed of. Yes, keep your tetanus innoculation up to date, but
don't use two century old information as a guide to safe practices.

A lot of the others you mention are something that most people have
some immunity to, or even aren't pathogens at all (for example, you
NEED E. coli to stay healthy). There is also increasing evidence
that preventing children from being exposed to them increases the
risk of much more serious problems. Exercise your immune system
and stop fussing.

Yes, of course, some people are at special risk. Don't START
training your immune system in old age or when ill, and so on.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
Sorry missing clause in original post. Should have read :-

The extent to which the organic veg growing fad has been responsible for the increase, over the last few decades, in enteric illness is unestimated.

The various enteritis illness, some trivial some not so, have increased
in frequency by a couple of orders of magnitude since the 1960's. If you
refer back to your old bacteriology notes you will see that Cl. tet. and
Cl Wel. are both common commensals in the herbivore gut and their
sporulation occurs in the soil after the horse or cow has excreted the
bugs. Sure, tetanus and gas-gangrene are now rare in the UK; probably
because any injury requiring even outpatient treatment get an AT shot as
routine. From time to time cases occur of very trivial injuries - eg
thorn prickles whilst pruning, which are not considered worth further
attention until tetanus has developed.

Yep, we all need or resident E. coli - but not one of the enteropathic
strains. If you are into organic methods treat any edible produce as
contaminated

rjbl

In article ,
RJBL wrote:

The various enteritis illness, some trivial some not so, have increased
in frequency by a couple of orders of magnitude since the 1960's. ...

Oh, really? Do you have any evidence that this is anything more than
a recording artifact? Back in the 1960s, most people didn't call a
doctor for mere D&V, whereas they do now. Related to this, there has
been a HUGE increase in the number of people who are seriously infirm,
because modern medical aid prevents them dying from other causes.

A secondary effect, which particularly affects the serious incidents,
is that the population has much less immunity now than it did then,
because it has not had the exposure. It isn't clear how much that
affects the statistics.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

wrote:
In article ,
RJBL wrote:
The various enteritis illness, some trivial some not so, have increased
in frequency by a couple of orders of magnitude since the 1960's. ...

Oh, really? Do you have any evidence that this is anything more than
a recording artifact? Back in the 1960s, most people didn't call a
doctor for mere D&V, whereas they do now. Related to this, there has
been a HUGE increase in the number of people who are seriously infirm,
because modern medical aid prevents them dying from other causes.

A secondary effect, which particularly affects the serious incidents,
is that the population has much less immunity now than it did then,
because it has not had the exposure. It isn't clear how much that
affects the statistics.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Nick

Thanks for your thoughtful response.

No evidence that it is any more than a recording artifact at all, of
course.

As I infer that you know well already public health and epidemiological
data is bedevilled by recording artifacts; changes in notifiability
criteria; changes in clinical diagnostic fashions and changes in the
availability of experimental subjects to clinical examination. The
recorded data do, indeed, show a very large increase in the apparent
incidence of the minor enteric illnesses since the 1960s; as was
predicted by Betty Hobbs all those years ago when the home food freezer
first entered the consumer market in volume and home freezing
preservation became fashionable.

I guess that most patients still don't consult their GP when hit by a
simple D&V bug. Typically for the first 24hrs because they cannot,
phyically, get to the Clinic and thereafter because they feel,
obviously, sufficiently recovered not to need further treatment. I
surmise that the public records may show that the increase has been in
cases of illness perceived to be 'severe' rather than 'trivial'.

The original point was that gardeners would be prudent to be aware of
the potential bacteriological hazards of the organic gardening fashion.
It appears to be true, from the WHO published data, that those societies
which practice, per force, strictly organic animal and human faecal soil
fertilisation suffer high incidences of the enteric illnesses. The
possible exception being China - where food is invariably cooked, and at
high temperatures, and drinking water is invariably boiled - and has
been for at least the last two thousand years.

Your secondary observation re change in population immune response is
intriguing. Many allergies and allergy originated illnesses like asthma
do, indeed, appear to have become much more frequent in the last thirty
or so. Various estimates suggest that the frequency of childhood asthma
has increased between one and two orders of magnitude over that time. It
seems to have exactly paralleled the decline of tobacco smoking in the
population over the same period, although it would, of course, be
heretical to postulate any causal connection.

Returning to the exam question as originally set:-

1. Hot composting of material including horse and cow dung will probably
at least pasteurise the material and thus kill off most/all the
pathogenic bacteria. It may not destroy any Clostridial spores that have
been formed in the compost; these will remain, potentially, dangerous
for decades.

2. Cold composting will, almost certainly, not leave the compost safe in
respect to the common pathogens. These may well die out in the compost
over time.

Takeaway message, still, :-

A. Keep your AT course up to date;

B. Treat any organically raised garden produce as contaminated. Wash it
thoroughly and cook it properly.

rjbl

The string of illness and death due to contaminated leaf spinach was traced to a
field across the street from a herd of cows. Wild pigs were running thru the cow
pats and on into the field of spinach carrying the bacteria with them.

Ingrid
Somewhere between zone 5 and 6 tucked along the shore of Lake Michigan
on the council grounds of the Fox, Mascouten, Potawatomi, and Winnebago

In article ,
RJBL wrote:

wrote:
In article ,
RJBL wrote:
The various enteritis illness, some trivial some not so, have increased
in frequency by a couple of orders of magnitude since the 1960's. ...

Oh, really? Do you have any evidence that this is anything more than
a recording artifact? Back in the 1960s, most people didn't call a
doctor for mere D&V, whereas they do now. Related to this, there has
been a HUGE increase in the number of people who are seriously infirm,
because modern medical aid prevents them dying from other causes.

A secondary effect, which particularly affects the serious incidents,
is that the population has much less immunity now than it did then,
because it has not had the exposure. It isn't clear how much that
affects the statistics.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Nick

Thanks for your thoughtful response.

No evidence that it is any more than a recording artifact at all, of
course.

As I infer that you know well already public health and epidemiological
data is bedevilled by recording artifacts; changes in notifiability
criteria; changes in clinical diagnostic fashions and changes in the
availability of experimental subjects to clinical examination. The
recorded data do, indeed, show a very large increase in the apparent
incidence of the minor enteric illnesses since the 1960s; as was
predicted by Betty Hobbs all those years ago when the home food freezer
first entered the consumer market in volume and home freezing
preservation became fashionable.

I guess that most patients still don't consult their GP when hit by a
simple D&V bug. Typically for the first 24hrs because they cannot,
phyically, get to the Clinic and thereafter because they feel,
obviously, sufficiently recovered not to need further treatment. I
surmise that the public records may show that the increase has been in
cases of illness perceived to be 'severe' rather than 'trivial'.

The original point was that gardeners would be prudent to be aware of
the potential bacteriological hazards of the organic gardening fashion.
It appears to be true, from the WHO published data, that those societies
which practice, per force, strictly organic animal and human faecal soil
fertilisation suffer high incidences of the enteric illnesses. The
possible exception being China - where food is invariably cooked, and at
high temperatures, and drinking water is invariably boiled - and has
been for at least the last two thousand years.

Your secondary observation re change in population immune response is
intriguing. Many allergies and allergy originated illnesses like asthma
do, indeed, appear to have become much more frequent in the last thirty
or so. Various estimates suggest that the frequency of childhood asthma
has increased between one and two orders of magnitude over that time. It
seems to have exactly paralleled the decline of tobacco smoking in the
population over the same period, although it would, of course, be
heretical to postulate any causal connection.

Returning to the exam question as originally set:-

1. Hot composting of material including horse and cow dung will probably
at least pasteurise the material and thus kill off most/all the
pathogenic bacteria. It may not destroy any Clostridial spores that have
been formed in the compost; these will remain, potentially, dangerous
for decades.

2. Cold composting will, almost certainly, not leave the compost safe in
respect to the common pathogens. These may well die out in the compost
over time.

Takeaway message, still, :-

A. Keep your AT course up to date;

B. Treat any organically raised garden produce as contaminated. Wash it
thoroughly and cook it properly.

rjbl

Just rinse my organic carrots please.

Here in the good ol' U.S.of A., we like our shit factory fresh. Whether
it be rat or bat shit in our peanuts, or collateral damage from our
CAFOs, we just suck it down. It costs money to run a clean operation.
You can't expect a company to be into social welfare. They privatize the
profits, and socialize the costs (doctor's visits).

http://www.agpolicy.org/weekcol/467.html

http://www.foodpoisonjournal.com/200...tion/usda-sees
-the-light-on-e-coli-o157h7-and-meat/

And on the humane treatment of animals front,
http://www.grist.org/article/2009-07...-e.-coli-meat/
--

- Billy

"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being is
now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the moment of
conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7843430.stm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go