On 20/09/2010 21:13, Spamlet wrote:

(snip long thread)

The thread was supposed to be about the status of tomato plants in the UK.
It was then hijacked into a side discussion on poisonous plants, yet you
complain of others posting 'irrelevant' remarks, after your own contribution
to that irrelevance.

On hyocine/hyoscyamine I did not confuse anything (though I did forget the
's' in my first spelling):

This time too...

I gave a succinct description with the necessary
quote link to the full piece - a link which gave Buscopan under a list of
branded drugs containing hyoscyamine, had you bothered to read it - for
anyone who wanted to read in more depth.

No, YOU read it properly. Quote from the paragraph above that which you
quoted: "Hyoscyamine should not be confused with hyoscine...". Seems
you are confused.

It is not nit-picking to be accurate. Hyoscine (which chemically is
epoxyhyoscyamine) and hyoscyamine have differences in their actions;
hyoscyamine has stimulant and then sedative properties, whilst hyoscine
is usually only sedative. That is one reason why hyoscine (and not
hyoscyamine) is used to treat motion sickness; it would not be desirable
to stimulate the vomiting centre before depressing it!

Many closely-related pharmacologically active chemical compounds have
often quite marked differences in their effects, and their plant sources
may not be quite as expected. (For example see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etorphine).

(snip rest)

--

Jeff

"Jeff Layman" wrote in message
...
On 20/09/2010 21:13, Spamlet wrote:

(snip long thread)

The thread was supposed to be about the status of tomato plants in the
UK.
It was then hijacked into a side discussion on poisonous plants, yet you
complain of others posting 'irrelevant' remarks, after your own
contribution
to that irrelevance.

On hyocine/hyoscyamine I did not confuse anything (though I did forget
the
's' in my first spelling):

This time too...

I gave a succinct description with the necessary
quote link to the full piece - a link which gave Buscopan under a list of
branded drugs containing hyoscyamine, had you bothered to read it - for
anyone who wanted to read in more depth.

No, YOU read it properly. Quote from the paragraph above that which you
quoted: "Hyoscyamine should not be confused with hyoscine...". Seems you
are confused.

It is not nit-picking to be accurate. Hyoscine (which chemically is
epoxyhyoscyamine) and hyoscyamine have differences in their actions;
hyoscyamine has stimulant and then sedative properties, whilst hyoscine is
usually only sedative. That is one reason why hyoscine (and not
hyoscyamine) is used to treat motion sickness; it would not be desirable
to stimulate the vomiting centre before depressing it!

Many closely-related pharmacologically active chemical compounds have
often quite marked differences in their effects, and their plant sources
may not be quite as expected. (For example see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etorphine).

(snip rest)

--

Jeff

Right now you wanted me to write an entire essay on pharmaceuticals?
Have you tried rewriting the list of drugs given under the heading
hyoscyamine yet?
Let me know when you have edited the wiki.

S

wrote:

Our local rag is reporting a gardener finding devil's trumpet (datura
stramonium) and "contacting ... Council to arrange for the plant to be
removed" as it "contains dangerous levels of poison". However,
Googling it reveals you can buy it on eBay from what look like
professional sellers, so presumably it can't be that bad and this is
largely a press scare story.

I often find them in the fields when out brushing. A neighbour has one
growing in his garden - but I know where the seed for that came from...

....how it got there is anyone's guess.

And yes, the plant (and seeds) is/are very poisonous, but nothing to get
in a flap about - many seed catalogues include them, as they are
decorative plants and the scent of the flowers is pervasive.

But it does raise the question as to whether there have been any
occurances of gardeners chucking an unrecognised poisonous volunteer
on the compost heap and being seriously harmed then or a year later
when ingesting their next crop?

In a word, no.

--
Rusty

Sacha wrote:

/snip/

Datura is Catgeory B - harmful if
eaten and so, curiously, is Ricinus which I would have thought would
come into the 'deadly' category if there was one!

You need a *LOT* of the Ricinus plant - well, IIRC, only the seed - to
make a little of the poison.

--
Rusty

Mike Lyle wrote:
Spamlet wrote:
[...]
Succinct updating of information is one thing; a long-winded ego trip is
another.

Yup - I've just passed over and left unread a bundle of posts because of
the thoughtless and undisciplined lack of snipping.

I *MIGHT* have passed-over some succinct and interesting observations -
but I doubt it.

--
Rusty

Spamlet wrote:
"Mike Lyle" wrote in message
...
Spamlet wrote:
[...]
Succinct updating of information is one thing; a long-winded ego trip is
another.

--
Mike.

So is sniping at newcomers to your apparently private little news group.

Anyone is welcome to contribute. This is not a 'private newsgroup', nor
even 'apparantly' so.

Newcomers are welcomed, but are expected to adhere to the tenets of
Usenet - which unfortunately, are not heeded by many 'old hands'.

Succinct updating I am all for: having a newsgroup monopolised by a
commercial enterprise without it being immediately highlighted as spam by
the other users is quite unusual in my experience.

What comercial enterprise monopolises this group? I've been here since -
well - I can't remember, but could be as far back as '94, and it's news
to me.

--
Rusty

In article ,
Rusty Hinge wrote:
wrote:

Our local rag is reporting a gardener finding devil's trumpet (datura
stramonium) and "contacting ... Council to arrange for the plant to be
removed" as it "contains dangerous levels of poison". However,
Googling it reveals you can buy it on eBay from what look like
professional sellers, so presumably it can't be that bad and this is
largely a press scare story.

The education level of the great British couch potato has dropped
so far that it is probably below that of a bright chimpanzee.

But it does raise the question as to whether there have been any
occurances of gardeners chucking an unrecognised poisonous volunteer
on the compost heap and being seriously harmed then or a year later
when ingesting their next crop?

In a word, no.

Unlike the comparable phenomenon with some of the nastier agricultural
chemicals.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In article ,
Rusty Hinge wrote:
Spamlet wrote:
"Mike Lyle" wrote in message
...
Spamlet wrote:
[...]
Succinct updating of information is one thing; a long-winded ego trip is
another.

So is sniping at newcomers to your apparently private little news group.

Anyone is welcome to contribute. This is not a 'private newsgroup', nor
even 'apparantly' so.

Newcomers are welcomed, but are expected to adhere to the tenets of
Usenet - which unfortunately, are not heeded by many 'old hands'.

Right.

Succinct updating I am all for: having a newsgroup monopolised by a
commercial enterprise without it being immediately highlighted as spam by
the other users is quite unusual in my experience.

What comercial enterprise monopolises this group? I've been here since -
well - I can't remember, but could be as far back as '94, and it's news
to me.

And I have been here since it was started, though I was not involved
in actually starting it. I seem to disremember any such commercial
domination at any stage.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Charlie Pridham wrote:

/snip/

There certainly used to be large stands of "wild" tomatoes along the
banks of the Thames in Berkshire in the late 60's, presumably the result
of many fishermans half eaten sandwiches, but far too much to be from
just one season

Consider that he tomato is closely related to the black and red
nightshade. Both the latter are killed by frost, yet they appear with
delightful regularity every year, largely as garden or arable weeds.

I say 'delightfully', as (if I get round to it) I collect loads of black
nightshade berries and with a little sugar and tartaric acid, make pots
and pots of sham blueberry-pie filling.

--
Rusty

In article , Sacha wrote:
On 2010-09-26 11:32:33 +0100, Rusty Hinge
said:

Datura is Catgeory B - harmful if eaten and so, curiously, is Ricinus
which I would have thought would come into the 'deadly' category if
there was one!

You need a *LOT* of the Ricinus plant - well, IIRC, only the seed - to
make a little of the poison.

So it's the distillation - if that's the right word - that is the truly
deadly poison, not the plant itself? I did wonder why I'd seen it
growing on roundabouts etc! OTOH, I read advice recently that, after
handling Daturas, it's a good idea to wash your hands and not to put
them near your eyes or mouth without doing so.

No, the plant is deadly, too, but nobody is likely to munch into
it in sufficient quantity to kill themselves. It's possible, but
no more than that.

And, while taking precautions with Daturas is a good idea, a bit
of contact won't kill you - or I would be dead! The same applies
to LOTS of tropical plants, and a few temperate ones.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In message , Sacha
writes
On 2010-09-26 11:32:33 +0100, Rusty Hinge
said:

Sacha wrote:
/snip/

Datura is Catgeory B - harmful if eaten and so, curiously, is
Ricinus which I would have thought would come into the 'deadly'
category if there was one!
You need a *LOT* of the Ricinus plant - well, IIRC, only the seed -
to make a little of the poison.

So it's the distillation - if that's the right word - that is the truly
deadly poison, not the plant itself? I did wonder why I'd seen it
growing on roundabouts etc!

Fide Wikipedia the LD50 (sufficient to kill 50% of people) of ricin (the
active ingredient) is about 2mg if inhaled or injected, but considerably
more if ingested. (Presumably much of the toxin is broken down in the
digestive system.) Even still, again fide Wikipeda, between 5 and 20
beans is sufficiently to kill an adult. A paper is cited whose abstract
says that 3 beans can kill a child.

OTOH, I read advice recently that, after handling Daturas, it's a good
idea to wash your hands and not to put them near your eyes or mouth
without doing so.

--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

wrote:

And, while taking precautions with Daturas is a good idea, a bit
of contact won't kill you - or I would be dead! The same applies
to LOTS of tropical plants, and a few temperate ones.

But not to some fungi - you can make yourself Mr. Kipling exceedingly
unwell /Mr.K by handling a death-cap for any length of time.

Allegedly.

--
Rusty