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Vegatables that help convert grassland into workable veggie patch?
I have an area of rough grassland (my uncultivated back garden). The soil
isn't bad, although riddled with small flat limestone rocks. I want to turn the patch into a vegetable patch, with about three 5ft x 30ft beds. Digging it over would be quite an undertaking; one for which I don't really have the stamina for. I wondered if planting certain vegetable next Spring, would make this job easier, by smothering the grass and weeds, and perhaps improving teh soil. Last Spring, I planted some purple broccili there. They didn;t ptoduce any flowering tops, but did a great job of smothering all the grass and weeds. At the end of the season, I found they were easy to pull up and chuck onto the compost heap, leaving teh ground much easier to work. I'm not really a broccili fan, so I wonder if anyone suggest other vegetables which would have a similar useful effect? Thanks... Al |
Vegatables that help convert grassland into workable veggie patch?
"AL_n" wrote
I have an area of rough grassland (my uncultivated back garden). The soil isn't bad, although riddled with small flat limestone rocks. I want to turn the patch into a vegetable patch, with about three 5ft x 30ft beds. Digging it over would be quite an undertaking; one for which I don't really have the stamina for. I wondered if planting certain vegetable next Spring, would make this job easier, by smothering the grass and weeds, and perhaps improving teh soil. Last Spring, I planted some purple broccili there. They didn;t ptoduce any flowering tops, but did a great job of smothering all the grass and weeds. At the end of the season, I found they were easy to pull up and chuck onto the compost heap, leaving teh ground much easier to work. I'm not really a broccili fan, so I wonder if anyone suggest other vegetables which would have a similar useful effect? Why didn't you spray with glyphosate and kill all the weeds in one go, then hire a cultivator and dig the lot keeping a bucket to hand for all the large stones.(Make good paths) They usually say Potatoes break up the soil and improve it but it's not the spuds IMO it's the gardener doing all the banking up and deep digging out. Squash will smother weeds to some extent if you plant enough close enough. -- Regards. Bob Hobden. Posted to this Newsgroup from the W of London, UK |
Vegatables that help convert grassland into workable veggie patch?
On Dec 13, 5:36*pm, "Bob Hobden" wrote:
"AL_n" *wrote I have an area of rough grassland (my uncultivated back garden). The soil isn't bad, although riddled with small flat limestone rocks. I want to turn the patch into a vegetable patch, with about three 5ft x 30ft beds. Digging it over would be quite an undertaking; one for which I don't really have the stamina for. I wondered if planting certain vegetable next Spring, would make this job easier, by smothering the grass and weeds, and perhaps improving teh soil. Last Spring, I planted some purple broccili there. They didn;t ptoduce any flowering tops, but did a great job of smothering all the grass and weeds. At the end of the season, I found they were easy to pull up and chuck onto the compost heap, leaving teh ground much easier to work. I'm not really a broccili fan, so I wonder if anyone suggest other vegetables which would have a similar useful effect? Why didn't you spray with glyphosate and kill all the weeds in one go, then hire a cultivator and dig the lot keeping a bucket to hand for all the large stones.(Make good paths) They usually say Potatoes break up the soil and improve it but it's not the spuds IMO it's the gardener doing all the banking up and deep digging out.. Squash will smother weeds to some extent if you plant enough close enough.. -- Regards. Bob Hobden. Posted to this Newsgroup from the W of London, UK- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Above is right. I would say spray, let die and set on fire. Kills a lot of pests. There is no substitute for digging unless it be ploughing. A rotovator is of limited use as it does not invert the soil. Being a peasant is hard work. |
Vegatables that help convert grassland into workable veggie patch?
AL_n wrote:
I'm not really a broccili fan, so I wonder if anyone suggest other vegetables which would have a similar useful effect? Potatoes are good at breaking down clay soil, I believe. Although I can't really say anecdotally, as we also tend to pile loads of manure in the bed pre-potato planting. Pumpkins and courgettes could be good for smothering, with their giant leaves. Beans will improve the nutrients in the soil for next year. |
Vegatables that help convert grassland into workable veggie patch?
On 13 Dec 2011 17:27:45 GMT, "AL_n" wrote:
I have an area of rough grassland (my uncultivated back garden). The soil isn't bad, although riddled with small flat limestone rocks. I want to turn the patch into a vegetable patch, with about three 5ft x 30ft beds. Digging it over would be quite an undertaking; one for which I don't really have the stamina for. I wondered if planting certain vegetable next Spring, would make this job easier, by smothering the grass and weeds, and perhaps improving teh soil. Last Spring, I planted some purple broccili there. They didn;t ptoduce any flowering tops, but did a great job of smothering all the grass and weeds. At the end of the season, I found they were easy to pull up and chuck onto the compost heap, leaving teh ground much easier to work. I'm not really a broccili fan, so I wonder if anyone suggest other vegetables which would have a similar useful effect? Thanks... Al If it is the labour that you really want to avoid, have a look at: http://www.no-dig-vegetablegarden.com/ or http://www.no-dig-gardening.org/ or just type "no dig gardening" into your browser search engine. Of course, a lot depends on what you mean by "rocks". Whilst brussels sprouts or a plate of cabbage may have the ability to empty a room full of people, this is not usually by the physical labour of actually lifting and relocating them. Cheers, Jake ======================================= Urgling (after the great storm) from the usually dryer (east) end of Swansea Bay. |
Vegatables that help convert grassland into workable veggie patch?
"AL_n" wrote in message ... I have an area of rough grassland (my uncultivated back garden). The soil isn't bad, although riddled with small flat limestone rocks. I want to turn the patch into a vegetable patch, with about three 5ft x 30ft beds. Digging it over would be quite an undertaking; one for which I don't really have the stamina for. I wondered if planting certain vegetable next Spring, would make this job easier, by smothering the grass and weeds, and perhaps improving teh soil. Last Spring, I planted some purple broccili there. They didn;t ptoduce any flowering tops, but did a great job of smothering all the grass and weeds. At the end of the season, I found they were easy to pull up and chuck onto the compost heap, leaving teh ground much easier to work. I'm not really a broccili fan, so I wonder if anyone suggest other vegetables which would have a similar useful effect? Thanks... ;If it has been rough for some time, it will need digging. As others have said, use Glyphosate in the early spring. General grass can then be dug in, clumps sheered of at the surface. At my age, I too hate digging. Mark out 2 sq m and dig. find something else to do for an hour, then dig a bit more. This is how I dealt with my new allotment last year. If you only do one bed that will get you planting......take your time. -- Pete C |
Vegatables that help convert grassland into workable veggie patch?
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Vegatables that help convert grassland into workable veggie patch?
Use cardboard (flattened large boxes) to cover the soil completely, held down ideally with vegetable matter but otherwise planks. Cut x's in the cardboard in spring to plant potatoes, or young courgette plants, beans etc. Or fruit trees and bushes, and garden plants Keep up the mulching. Our entire garden was lawn when we arrived and all the planting has used the cardboard,mulching no-dig method. if you google permaculture/lasagne garden you'll find loads of info on the method. Janet How interesting! |
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Since you already have your own compost, you can lay potatoes or jerusalem artichokes on top of the soil, and cover them with a thick layer of compost (at least 6inches thick). Their roots will help break up the turf layer, and the grass and weeds, once buried sufficiently, will rot down. Basically what you're doing in this approach is to use a raised bed system, using your added compost as the main growth medium, but with gradually increasing depth as what you do on top helps to break down what's underneath. |
Vegatables that help convert grassland into workable veggie patch?
On 13/12/2011 17:27, AL_n wrote:
Last Spring, I planted some purple broccili there. They didn;t ptoduce any flowering tops, but did a great job of smothering all the grass and weeds. At the end of the season, I found they were easy to pull up and chuck onto the compost heap, leaving teh ground much easier to work. not really replying to your main question but: I know you said you are not a Broccoli fan, but are you sure they were not a variety which produce on the second year? The ones I have at home have to spend one winter in the beds before producing the second year... |
Vegatables that help convert grassland into workable veggie patch?
On Dec 13, 8:00*pm, Janet wrote:
In article , says... I have an area of rough grassland (my uncultivated back garden). The soil isn't bad, although riddled with small flat limestone rocks. I want to turn the patch into a vegetable patch, with about three 5ft x 30ft beds. Digging it over would be quite an undertaking; one for which I don't really have the stamina for. I wondered if planting certain vegetable next Spring, would make this job easier, by smothering the grass and weeds, and perhaps improving teh soil. * *Use cardboard (flattened *large boxes) to cover the soil completely, held down ideally with vegetable matter but otherwise planks. Cut x's in the *cardboard in spring to plant potatoes, or young courgette plants, beans etc. Or fruit trees and bushes, and garden plants Keep up the mulching. * Our entire garden was lawn when we arrived and all the planting has used the cardboard,mulching *no-dig method. * if you google permaculture/lasagne garden you'll find loads of info on the method. * Janet +1. Cardboard is excellent. I'd also plant something light excluding the first yr, like nettles, pumpkins, courgettes, rhubarb, etc. If you've got compostable material, that can go down under the cardboard. Permaculture will wipe out most of the unnecessary physical work that annual gardens require year on year, but it means getting used to a whole different set of fruit & veg. NT |
Vegatables that help convert grassland into workable veggie patch?
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Vegatables that help convert grassland into workable veggie patch?
gogo wrote in
: Last Spring, I planted some purple broccili there. They didn;t ptoduce any flowering tops, but did a great job of smothering all the grass and weeds. At the end of the season, I found they were easy to pull up and chuck onto the compost heap, leaving teh ground much easier to work. not really replying to your main question but: I know you said you are not a Broccoli fan, but are you sure they were not a variety which produce on the second year? The ones I have at home have to spend one winter in the beds before producing the second year.. Gosh, no! I had no idea that might be the case! Oh well, it just as well that I'm not really a broccili fan! Thanks to everyone for the replies. The pumpkin/squash/marrow idea sounds perfect, as I am a big fan of those, especially marrows / courgettes. The cardboard mulch idea is intereting. However, does it not create an absolute breeding haven for slugs and snails? (Both are a nightmare where I live.) Al |
Vegatables that help convert grassland into workable veggiepatch?
On Tue, 13 Dec 2011 17:27:45 +0000, AL_n wrote:
Digging it over would be quite an undertaking; one for which I don't really have the stamina for. I wondered if planting certain vegetable next Spring, would make this job easier, by smothering the grass and weeds, and perhaps improving teh soil. I'd recommend Laminapolyethylenus negra. -- gardening on the beach in Jersey |
Vegatables that help convert grassland into workable veggie patch?
On Dec 15, 9:58*pm, "AL_n" wrote:
gogo wrote : Last Spring, I planted some purple broccili there. They didn;t ptoduce any flowering tops, but did a great job of smothering all the grass and weeds. At the end of the season, I found they were easy to pull up and chuck onto the compost heap, leaving teh ground much easier to work. not really replying to your main question but: I know you said you are not a Broccoli fan, but are you sure they were not a variety which produce on the second year? The ones I have at home have to spend one winter in the beds before producing the second year.. Gosh, no! I had no idea that might be the case! Oh well, it just as well that I'm not really a broccili fan! Thanks to everyone for the replies. The pumpkin/squash/marrow idea sounds perfect, as I am a big fan of those, especially marrows / courgettes. The cardboard mulch idea is intereting. However, does it not create an absolute breeding haven for slugs and snails? (Both are a nightmare where I live.) Al You'd have to be a *very* big fan of cucurbits to eat a whole garden full of them. NT |
Vegatables that help convert grassland into workable veggie patch?
In article f6794453-face-410b-8f36-347c8d5e5677
@n6g2000vbg.googlegroups.com, says... The cardboard mulch idea is intereting. However, does it not create an absolute breeding haven for slugs and snails? Not in my (long) experience. As the cardboard and mulches break down worm activity increases; the worms attract birds, the birds spend hours scratching around for live food. Janet |
Vegatables that help convert grassland into workable veggie patch?
On 13 Dec 2011 17:27:45 GMT, "AL_n" wrote:
I have an area of rough grassland (my uncultivated back garden). The soil isn't bad, although riddled with small flat limestone rocks. I want to turn the patch into a vegetable patch, with about three 5ft x 30ft beds. Digging it over would be quite an undertaking; one for which I don't really have the stamina for. I wondered if planting certain vegetable next Spring, would make this job easier, by smothering the grass and weeds, and perhaps improving teh soil. You could offer to landshare the land and get help sorting it out. (Landshare is http://www.landshare.net/ ) I've read turnips help kill couch grass. Have not tried it. Digging stamina increases as you dig over time. Although if it's not weed killed you end up having to strim first before you dig. Last Spring, I planted some purple broccili there. They didn;t ptoduce any flowering tops, but did a great job of smothering all the grass and weeds. At the end of the season, I found they were easy to pull up and chuck onto the compost heap, leaving teh ground much easier to work. I'm not really a broccili fan, so I wonder if anyone suggest other vegetables which would have a similar useful effect? Thanks... Al -- http://www.voucherfreebies.co.uk |
Vegatables that help convert grassland into workable veggie patch?
NT wrote in
: +1. Cardboard is excellent. I'd also plant something light excluding the first yr, like nettles, pumpkins, courgettes, rhubarb, etc. If you've got compostable material, that can go down under the cardboard. Permaculture will wipe out most of the unnecessary physical work that annual gardens require year on year, but it means getting used to a whole different set of fruit & veg. NT I am very interested in this method of gardening, but why does it mean getting used to a whole different set of fruit & veg? Can't we just cut a hole through the cardboard and plant our usual veg.? Just asking before I lay the cardboard and chuck the muck on top. It will be the brassica bed and potato bed which gets it(now) for next years planting. Of course I can see that sowing root veg. seeds would be a problem, or will it? From Thursday I have 3+ weeks off of work for Christmas, and weather permitting, I will be in the veg. patch doing some remedial work. Thanks, NT Baz |
Vegatables that help convert grassland into workable veggie patch?
On Dec 19, 11:42*pm, Baz wrote:
NT wrote : +1. Cardboard is excellent. I'd also plant something light excluding the first yr, like nettles, pumpkins, courgettes, rhubarb, etc. If you've got compostable material, that can go down under the cardboard. Permaculture will wipe out most of the unnecessary physical work that annual gardens require year on year, but it means getting used to a whole different set of fruit & veg. NT I am very interested in this method of gardening, but why does it mean getting used to a whole different set of fruit & veg? Can't we just cut a hole through the cardboard and plant our usual veg.? Just asking before I lay the cardboard and chuck the muck on top. I trust you mean muck under the cardboard. It will be the brassica bed and potato bed which gets it(now) for next years planting. Of course I can see that sowing root veg. seeds would be a problem, or will it? From Thursday I have 3+ weeks off of work for Christmas, and weather permitting, I will be in the veg. patch doing some remedial work. Thanks, NT Baz The whole point of permaculture is that it mostly uses perennials, so you dont have to keep replanting, or doing al the other extra work first year plants require. Popular veg plots use almost exclusively annuals. NT |
Vegatables that help convert grassland into workable veggie patch?
On Dec 20, 2:10*pm, Janet wrote:
In article 1c190a01-4547-46e7-884a- , says... On Dec 19, 11:42*pm, Baz wrote: NT wrote : +1. Cardboard is excellent. I'd also plant something light excluding the first yr, like nettles, pumpkins, courgettes, rhubarb, etc. If you've got compostable material, that can go down under the cardboard. Permaculture will wipe out most of the unnecessary physical work that annual gardens require year on year, but it means getting used to a whole different set of fruit & veg. NT I am very interested in this method of gardening, but why does it mean getting used to a whole different set of fruit & veg? Can't we just cut a hole through the cardboard and plant our usual veg.? Just asking before I lay the cardboard and chuck the muck on top. I trust you mean muck under the cardboard. * IME *better to put the muck on top to help hold down the cardboard and stop it blowing away.. By the time the much has weathered the carboard will have disintegrated. that means the cardboard will disintegrate pretty quickly. Sticks or stones can keep it down ok. The whole point of permaculture is that it mostly uses perennials, so you dont have to keep replanting, *Permaculture crop production was developed for (and works in) countries with much higher, brighter light levels, longer growing seasons etc than the cloudy cool latitudes of the UK. I have yet to see a permanent, or even longlived, successful fully perennial Permaculture crop garden in the UK. * However, UK limitations are no bar to using a Permaculture method of bed construction in the UK, which you then plant otherwise. * Janet. There are such in the wild in Britain, on woodland edge, eg blackthorn with blackberry growing under it. NT |
Vegatables that help convert grassland into workable veggie patch?
In article 7b359958-ee09-4751-a1be-
, says... On Dec 20, 2:10*pm, Janet wrote: In article 1c190a01-4547-46e7-884a- , says... On Dec 19, 11:42*pm, Baz wrote: NT wrote : +1. Cardboard is excellent. I'd also plant something light excluding the first yr, like nettles, pumpkins, courgettes, rhubarb, etc. If you've got compostable material, that can go down under the cardboard. Permaculture will wipe out most of the unnecessary physical work that annual gardens require year on year, but it means getting used to a whole different set of fruit & veg. NT I am very interested in this method of gardening, but why does it mean getting used to a whole different set of fruit & veg? Can't we just cut a hole through the cardboard and plant our usual veg.? Just asking before I lay the cardboard and chuck the muck on top. I trust you mean muck under the cardboard. * IME *better to put the muck on top to help hold down the cardboard and stop it blowing away.. By the time the much has weathered the carboard will have disintegrated. that means the cardboard will disintegrate pretty quickly. Yes, that's the intention. The cardboard is strictly temporary, only required for a few months to defeat photosynthesis by the primary growth (weeds, grass), killing them without need for digging or weedkiller. Sticks or stones can keep it down ok. They would; but a true permaculturist would be saving sticks and stones for longterm use (making swales, or drains). It also makes the manure fulfill two functions, (a permaculture principle) while reducing the required labour inputs from three to two (a permaculture and Janet pinciple). The whole point of permaculture is that it mostly uses perennials, so you dont have to keep replanting, *Permaculture crop production was developed for (and works in) countries with much higher, brighter light levels, longer growing seasons etc than the cloudy cool latitudes of the UK. I have yet to see a permanent, or even longlived, successful fully perennial Permaculture crop garden in the UK. * However, UK limitations are no bar to using a Permaculture method of bed construction in the UK, which you then plant otherwise. * Janet. There are such in the wild in Britain, on woodland edge, eg blackthorn with blackberry growing under it. That natural combination is not a permanent sustainable planting though; it's transitional. Janet |
Vegatables that help convert grassland into workable veggie patch?
Derek Turner wrote in news:9l16tsF2daU1
@mid.individual.net: Digging it over would be quite an undertaking; one for which I don't really have the stamina for. I wondered if planting certain vegetable next Spring, would make this job easier, by smothering the grass and weeds, and perhaps improving teh soil. I'd recommend Laminapolyethylenus negra. Can you provide another name or a link to further info? |
Vegatables that help convert grassland into workable veggie patch?
AL_n wrote:
Digging it over would be quite an undertaking; one for which I don't really have the stamina for. I wondered if planting certain vegetable next Spring, would make this job easier, by smothering the grass and weeds, and perhaps improving teh soil. I'd recommend Laminapolyethylenus negra. Can you provide another name or a link to further info? (black plastic) |
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Vegatables that help convert grassland into workable veggie patch?
On Dec 21, 10:38*am, Janet wrote:
In article 7b359958-ee09-4751-a1be- , says... On Dec 20, 2:10*pm, Janet wrote: In article 1c190a01-4547-46e7-884a- , says.... On Dec 19, 11:42*pm, Baz wrote: NT wrote : +1. Cardboard is excellent. I'd also plant something light excluding the first yr, like nettles, pumpkins, courgettes, rhubarb, etc. If you've got compostable material, that can go down under the cardboard. Permaculture will wipe out most of the unnecessary physical work that annual gardens require year on year, but it means getting used to a whole different set of fruit & veg. NT I am very interested in this method of gardening, but why does it mean getting used to a whole different set of fruit & veg? Can't we just cut a hole through the cardboard and plant our usual veg.? Just asking before I lay the cardboard and chuck the muck on top. I trust you mean muck under the cardboard. * IME *better to put the muck on top to help hold down the cardboard and stop it blowing away.. By the time the much has weathered the carboard will have disintegrated. that means the cardboard will disintegrate pretty quickly. * Yes, that's the intention. The cardboard is strictly temporary, only required for a few months to defeat photosynthesis by the primary growth (weeds, grass), killing them without *need for digging or weedkiller. how long its needed depends on the weeds. The longer it lasts, the less weeding there is to do. I like that! *Sticks or stones can keep it down ok. * *They would; but a true permaculturist would be saving sticks and stones for *longterm use (making swales, or drains). It also makes the on some sites. I have more sticks than I can ever use manure fulfill two functions, (a permaculture principle) while reducing the required labour inputs from three to two (a permaculture and Janet pinciple). how does manure on card reduce labour over manure under card? The whole point of permaculture is that it mostly uses perennials, so you dont have to keep replanting, *Permaculture crop production was developed for (and works in) countries with much higher, brighter light levels, longer growing seasons etc than the cloudy cool latitudes of the UK. I have yet to see a permanent, or even longlived, successful fully perennial Permaculture crop garden in the UK. * However, UK limitations are no bar to using a Permaculture method of bed construction in the UK, which you then plant otherwise. * Janet. There are such in the wild in Britain, on woodland edge, eg blackthorn with blackberry growing under it. * *That natural combination is not a permanent sustainable planting though; it's transitional. why do you say that? * * Janet NT |
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Trees put a lot of energy into developing a strong trunk to be self supporting, so that they can over-top everything else and grab all the light. Everything else is to a certain extent opportunistic, making use of either temporary gaps in the tree cover, or living in areas where there isn't enough soil cover for trees (eg mountain tops, cliffs). They avoid the need to put all that effort into building trunks, but have to snatch what they can, where they can. This is a gross simplification! |
Vegatables that help convert grassland into workable veggie patch?
On Dec 24, 10:42*am, kay wrote:
NT;945627 Wrote: On Dec 21, 10:38*am, Janet wrote:- In article 7b359958-ee09-4751-a1be- , says... - There are such in the wild in Britain, on woodland edge, eg blackthorn with blackberry growing under it.- * *That natural combination is not a permanent sustainable planting though; it's transitional.- why do you say that? - * * Janet- It's woodland *edge* - ie an open space on one side. Open spaces, left to themselves, don't stay open. The next stage in success is scrub (eg brambles and blackthorn) followed by trees which will eventually shade out the brambles and blackthorn. Trees put a lot of energy into developing a strong trunk to be self supporting, so that they can over-top everything else and grab all the light. Everything else is to a certain extent opportunistic, making use of either *temporary gaps in the tree cover, or living in areas where there isn't enough soil cover for trees (eg mountain tops, cliffs). They avoid the need to put all that effort into building trunks, but have to snatch what they can, where they can. This is a gross simplification! Permaculture is all about reproducing forest edge conditions, with minimal management to effectively stabilise it. NT |
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My brief look at that left me with disappointment that, in this country at least, the bottom layer didn't have a great deal in the way of useful veg - eg no beans, peas etc. |
Vegatables that help convert grassland into workable veggie patch?
kay wrote in news:kay.9694b16
@gardenbanter.co.uk: Black polythene Doh! I should have got that! :-7 Al |
Vegatables that help convert grassland into workable veggie patch?
In article 742a6955-9310-4309-a876-
, says... On Dec 21, 10:38*am, Janet wrote: In article 7b359958-ee09-4751-a1be- , says... On Dec 20, 2:10*pm, Janet wrote: In article 1c190a01-4547-46e7-884a- , says.... On Dec 19, 11:42*pm, Baz wrote: NT wrote : +1. Cardboard is excellent. I'd also plant something light excluding the first yr, like nettles, pumpkins, courgettes, rhubarb, etc. If you've got compostable material, that can go down under the cardboard. Permaculture will wipe out most of the unnecessary physical work that annual gardens require year on year, but it means getting used to a whole different set of fruit & veg. NT I am very interested in this method of gardening, but why does it mean getting used to a whole different set of fruit & veg? Can't we just cut a hole through the cardboard and plant our usual veg.? Just asking before I lay the cardboard and chuck the muck on top. I trust you mean muck under the cardboard. * IME *better to put the muck on top to help hold down the cardboard and stop it blowing away.. By the time the much has weathered the carboard will have disintegrated. that means the cardboard will disintegrate pretty quickly. * Yes, that's the intention. The cardboard is strictly temporary, only required for a few months to defeat photosynthesis by the primary growth (weeds, grass), killing them without *need for digging or weedkiller. how long its needed depends on the weeds. The longer it lasts, the less weeding there is to do. I like that! *Sticks or stones can keep it down ok. * *They would; but a true permaculturist would be saving sticks and stones for *longterm use (making swales, or drains). It also makes the on some sites. I have more sticks than I can ever use manure fulfill two functions, (a permaculture principle) while reducing the required labour inputs from three to two (a permaculture and Janet pinciple). how does manure on card reduce labour over manure under card? 1 spread manure 2 spread card 3 fetch and spread stones/sticks on card to hold down card. or 1 spread card 2 spread manure to hold down card. * However, UK limitations are no bar to using a Permaculture method of bed construction in the UK, which you then plant otherwise. * Janet. There are such in the wild in Britain, on woodland edge, eg blackthorn with blackberry growing under it. * *That natural combination is not a permanent sustainable planting though; it's transitional. why do you say that? Most forest edges are! Blackthorn plants grow taller and live longer than blackberry plants. Ultimately the blackthorn with grow tall and dense enough (it suckers) to shade out the blackberry. Janet. |
Vegatables that help convert grassland into workable veggie patch?
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Vegatables that help convert grassland into workable veggie patch?
On Dec 28, 2:34*am, Janet wrote:
In article 509dcd5a-1351-4efb-8032-f9e30f6adbf5 @p16g2000yqd.googlegroups.com, says... On Dec 24, 10:42*am, kay wrote: NT;945627 Wrote: On Dec 21, 10:38*am, Janet wrote:- In article 7b359958-ee09-4751-a1be- , says.... - There are such in the wild in Britain, on woodland edge, eg blackthorn with blackberry growing under it.- * *That natural combination is not a permanent sustainable planting though; it's transitional.- why do you say that? - * * Janet- It's woodland *edge* - ie an open space on one side. Open spaces, left to themselves, don't stay open. The next stage in success is scrub (eg brambles and blackthorn) followed by trees which will eventually shade out the brambles and blackthorn. Trees put a lot of energy into developing a strong trunk to be self supporting, so that they can over-top everything else and grab all the light. Everything else is to a certain extent opportunistic, making use of either *temporary gaps in the tree cover, or living in areas where there isn't enough soil cover for trees (eg mountain tops, cliffs). They avoid the need to put all that effort into building trunks, but have to snatch what they can, where they can. This is a gross simplification! Permaculture is all about reproducing forest edge conditions, with minimal management to effectively stabilise it. * *Permaculture is about creating permanent, sustainable *plantings.. Which forest edge never is in UK latitudes, because we have relatively low light levels and just one relatively short frost-free growing season. In the UK, if you plant permaculture layers (something like, leaf perennials, under black currants, under apple trees) shade will eventually defeat at least one layer. * *It does work where it was designed for.. in countries with much higher light levels and no frosts or a different pattern of growing seasons. * *Janet. I spoke to a permaculture professor about this, he says there are a number of successful permaculture plantings in UK, and even in Scotland. I believe him. NT |
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If you're walking in the countryside you will come across little plots of broad beans planted in a corner of an orchard, well under the tree canopy. I've seen similar in Greece - orchards of citrus underplanted with peppers and aubergines. |
Vegatables that help convert grassland into workable veggie patch?
On Dec 28, 2:34*am, Janet wrote:
In article 742a6955-9310-4309-a876- , says... On Dec 21, 10:38*am, Janet wrote: In article 7b359958-ee09-4751-a1be- , says.... On Dec 20, 2:10*pm, Janet wrote: In article 1c190a01-4547-46e7-884a- , says... On Dec 19, 11:42*pm, Baz wrote: NT wrote : +1. Cardboard is excellent. I'd also plant something light excluding the first yr, like nettles, pumpkins, courgettes, rhubarb, etc. If you've got compostable material, that can go down under the cardboard. Permaculture will wipe out most of the unnecessary physical work that annual gardens require year on year, but it means getting used to a whole different set of fruit & veg. NT I am very interested in this method of gardening, but why does it mean getting used to a whole different set of fruit & veg? Can't we just cut a hole through the cardboard and plant our usual veg.? Just asking before I lay the cardboard and chuck the muck on top. I trust you mean muck under the cardboard. * IME *better to put the muck on top to help hold down the cardboard and stop it blowing away.. By the time the much has weathered the carboard will have disintegrated. that means the cardboard will disintegrate pretty quickly. * Yes, that's the intention. The cardboard is strictly temporary, only required for a few months to defeat photosynthesis by the primary growth (weeds, grass), killing them without *need for digging or weedkiller. |
Vegatables that help convert grassland into workable veggie patch?
On Dec 28, 11:09*am, NT wrote:
On Dec 28, 2:34*am, Janet wrote: In article 509dcd5a-1351-4efb-8032-f9e30f6adbf5 @p16g2000yqd.googlegroups.com, says... On Dec 24, 10:42*am, kay wrote: NT;945627 Wrote: On Dec 21, 10:38*am, Janet wrote:- In article 7b359958-ee09-4751-a1be- , says... - There are such in the wild in Britain, on woodland edge, eg blackthorn with blackberry growing under it.- * *That natural combination is not a permanent sustainable planting though; it's transitional.- why do you say that? - * * Janet- It's woodland *edge* - ie an open space on one side. Open spaces, left to themselves, don't stay open. The next stage in success is scrub (eg brambles and blackthorn) followed by trees which will eventually shade out the brambles and blackthorn. Trees put a lot of energy into developing a strong trunk to be self supporting, so that they can over-top everything else and grab all the light. Everything else is to a certain extent opportunistic, making use of either *temporary gaps in the tree cover, or living in areas where there isn't enough soil cover for trees (eg mountain tops, cliffs). They avoid the need to put all that effort into building trunks, but have to snatch what they can, where they can. This is a gross simplification! Permaculture is all about reproducing forest edge conditions, with minimal management to effectively stabilise it. * *Permaculture is about creating permanent, sustainable *plantings. Which forest edge never is in UK latitudes, because we have relatively low light levels and just one relatively short frost-free growing season. In the UK, if you plant permaculture layers (something like, leaf perennials, under black currants, under apple trees) shade will eventually defeat at least one layer. * *It does work where it was designed for.. in countries with much higher light levels and no frosts or a different pattern of growing seasons. * *Janet. I spoke to a permaculture professor about this, he says there are a number of successful permaculture plantings in UK, and even in Scotland. I believe him. NT I also notice you talk about planting under blackberries. I hope no- one would do that, or even suggest it. Every time I've seen apple trees planted, there's been a good bit of space between the trees in the resulting canopy, space that lets quite a lot of sun in. NT |
Vegatables that help convert grassland into workable veggie patch?
In article 1d8471e2-a1ab-416f-9eac-38275cda8448
@f33g2000yqh.googlegroups.com, says... I spoke to a permaculture professor about this, he says there are a number of successful permaculture plantings in UK, and even in Scotland. I believe him. I'd be delighted to hear where the Scottish success stories are. Did he obtain his academic qualification in the subject at a university, in some different latitude ? Janet (Scotland) |
Vegatables that help convert grassland into workable veggie patch?
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Vegatables that help convert grassland into workable veggie patch?
On Dec 28, 4:03*pm, Janet wrote:
In article d2be985c-0ed8-4bbd-bc16-7ff2e6afca80 @z12g2000yqm.googlegroups.com, says... On Dec 28, 11:09*am, NT wrote: On Dec 28, 2:34*am, Janet wrote: In article 509dcd5a-1351-4efb-8032-f9e30f6adbf5 @p16g2000yqd.googlegroups.com, says... On Dec 24, 10:42*am, kay wrote: NT;945627 Wrote: On Dec 21, 10:38*am, Janet wrote:- In article 7b359958-ee09-4751-a1be- , says... - There are such in the wild in Britain, on woodland edge, eg blackthorn with blackberry growing under it.- * *That natural combination is not a permanent sustainable planting though; it's transitional.- why do you say that? - * * Janet- It's woodland *edge* - ie an open space on one side. Open spaces, left to themselves, don't stay open. The next stage in success is scrub (eg brambles and blackthorn) followed by trees which will eventually shade out the brambles and blackthorn. Trees put a lot of energy into developing a strong trunk to be self supporting, so that they can over-top everything else and grab all the light. Everything else is to a certain extent opportunistic, making use of either *temporary gaps in the tree cover, or living in areas where there isn't enough soil cover for trees (eg mountain tops, cliffs). They avoid the need to put all that effort into building trunks, but have to snatch what they can, where they can. This is a gross simplification! Permaculture is all about reproducing forest edge conditions, with minimal management to effectively stabilise it. * *Permaculture is about creating permanent, sustainable *plantings. Which forest edge never is in UK latitudes, because we have relatively low light levels and just one relatively short frost-free growing season. In the UK, if you plant permaculture layers (something like, leaf perennials, under black currants, under apple trees) shade will eventually defeat at least one layer. * *It does work where it was designed for.. in countries with much higher light levels and no frosts or a different pattern of growing seasons. * *Janet. I spoke to a permaculture professor about this, he says there are a number of successful permaculture plantings in UK, and even in Scotland. I believe him. NT I also notice you talk about planting under blackberries. I hope no- one would do that, or even suggest it. * Perhaps you are not familiar with edible plant names. childish My post above mentions black currants, which are unrelated to blackberries. my mistake. NT Every time I've seen apple trees planted, there's been a good bit of space between the trees in the resulting canopy, space that lets quite a lot of sun in. * Next time you look at an apple orchard in the UK, take a look at what edible plants grow *beneath the trees. * *Janet |
Vegatables that help convert grassland into workable veggie patch?
In article 5ca9afaf-189f-4962-8ce0-
, says... On Dec 28, 4:03*pm, Janet wrote: In article d2be985c-0ed8-4bbd-bc16-7ff2e6afca80 @z12g2000yqm.googlegroups.com, says... On Dec 28, 11:09*am, NT wrote: On Dec 28, 2:34*am, Janet wrote: In article 509dcd5a-1351-4efb-8032-f9e30f6adbf5 @p16g2000yqd.googlegroups.com, says... On Dec 24, 10:42*am, kay wrote: NT;945627 Wrote: On Dec 21, 10:38*am, Janet wrote:- In article 7b359958-ee09-4751-a1be- , says... - There are such in the wild in Britain, on woodland edge, eg blackthorn with blackberry growing under it.- * *That natural combination is not a permanent sustainable planting though; it's transitional.- why do you say that? - * * Janet- It's woodland *edge* - ie an open space on one side. Open spaces, left to themselves, don't stay open. The next stage in success is scrub (eg brambles and blackthorn) followed by trees which will eventually shade out the brambles and blackthorn. Trees put a lot of energy into developing a strong trunk to be self supporting, so that they can over-top everything else and grab all the light. Everything else is to a certain extent opportunistic, making use of either *temporary gaps in the tree cover, or living in areas where there isn't enough soil cover for trees (eg mountain tops, cliffs). They avoid the need to put all that effort into building trunks, but have to snatch what they can, where they can. This is a gross simplification! Permaculture is all about reproducing forest edge conditions, with minimal management to effectively stabilise it. * *Permaculture is about creating permanent, sustainable *plantings. Which forest edge never is in UK latitudes, because we have relatively low light levels and just one relatively short frost-free growing season. In the UK, if you plant permaculture layers (something like, leaf perennials, under black currants, under apple trees) shade will eventually defeat at least one layer. * *It does work where it was designed for.. in countries with much higher light levels and no frosts or a different pattern of growing seasons. * *Janet. I spoke to a permaculture professor about this, he says there are a number of successful permaculture plantings in UK, and even in Scotland. I believe him. NT I also notice you talk about planting under blackberries. I hope no- one would do that, or even suggest it. * Perhaps you are not familiar with edible plant names. childish My post above mentions black currants, which are unrelated to blackberries. my mistake. Indeed. |
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