GardenBanter.co.uk - Plant IDs, anyone?

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Plant IDs, anyone?

On 22/10/2019 16:32, Nick Maclaren wrote:
The point is that, allergies and damage to mucous membranes aside,
any plant found 'in the wild' in the UK can be handled and even tasted
without serious risk of death or permanent injury.

https://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/profile?pid=458

I looked it up because I recall hearing tales of children using the
stems to make blowpipes. The results were not good.

Come to that, belladonna isn't even uncommon...

Andy

Plant IDs, anyone?

In article ,
Vir Campestris wrote:

The point is that, allergies and damage to mucous membranes aside,
any plant found 'in the wild' in the UK can be handled and even tasted
without serious risk of death or permanent injury.

https://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/profile?pid=458

I looked it up because I recall hearing tales of children using the
stems to make blowpipes. The results were not good.

Come to that, belladonna isn't even uncommon...

I checked up on several of the claims of harm, and they were assigned
to giant hogweed because 'obviously' that was the cause. In some cases,
there was no giant hogweed in the vicinity. I have also cut it down
on a hot summer's day using a sickle, wearing shorts and a short-sleeved
shirt, and had no reaction.

That doesn't mean that it CAN'T cause photosensitising reactions, but
that the hype isn't based on evidence, and it's probably no worse than
many other common garden plants.

And I have been prescribed belladonna ....

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Plant IDs, anyone?

On 25/10/19 20:50, Vir Campestris wrote:

Come to that, belladonna isn't even uncommon...

Not in my experience. I used to go on lots of natural history rambles in
Surrey and Sussex, particularly on the Downs, and I think we came
across Deadly NIghtshade on only two occasions in more than 10 years of
walks. In the "Illustrated Flora of Britain and Northern Europe" it is
described as "local", which is defined as "not widespread or continuous
in its distribution but restricted to particular localities". In other
words, if you wanted to see it you had to know where it was.

I doubt that there is much accidental poisoning by it now. It's really
children who might be most likely to suffer by eating the berries, but
how many children visit the countryside now where it /might/ grow?

As part of the pharmacy course I did more than 50 years ago we were
given 2.4 mg atropine (four 0.6 mg tablets) as part of our pharmacology
practical lesson. I was lucky - the effects started within 30 minutes
and had, more or less, abated by the end of the 3 hour session. Others
were less fortunate; the effects had barely started until they were on
their way home, with some feeling distinctly ill on the tube, suffering
from headaches and palpitations as well as hyperthermia (it was always
warm on the tube). Can you imagine elf'n'safety allowing that now?!

--

Jeff

Plant IDs, anyone?

On 25/10/2019 21:48, Nick Maclaren wrote:
In article ,
Vir Campestris wrote:

The point is that, allergies and damage to mucous membranes aside,
any plant found 'in the wild' in the UK can be handled and even tasted
without serious risk of death or permanent injury.

https://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/profile?pid=458

I looked it up because I recall hearing tales of children using the
stems to make blowpipes. The results were not good.

Come to that, belladonna isn't even uncommon...

I checked up on several of the claims of harm, and they were assigned
to giant hogweed because 'obviously' that was the cause. In some cases,
there was no giant hogweed in the vicinity. I have also cut it down
on a hot summer's day using a sickle, wearing shorts and a short-sleeved
shirt, and had no reaction.

Not everyone is sensitive so a bit like with hyacinths you might or
might not react. I somehow became sensitive to sedum spectabile.

That doesn't mean that it CAN'T cause photosensitising reactions, but
that the hype isn't based on evidence, and it's probably no worse than
many other common garden plants.

I think there were a few high profile serious damage to small childrens
lips events in the 70's that got it demonised. It is an impressive plant
but sets so much seed that it can become very invasive very quickly.

And I have been prescribed belladonna ....

Dose makes the poison.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Plant IDs, anyone?

In article ,
Martin Brown wrote:

That doesn't mean that it CAN'T cause photosensitising reactions, but
that the hype isn't based on evidence, and it's probably no worse than
many other common garden plants.

I think there were a few high profile serious damage to small childrens
lips events in the 70's that got it demonised. It is an impressive plant
but sets so much seed that it can become very invasive very quickly.

Yes. I believe those incidents, too, but the resulting hysteria has
been completely without justification. I have never seen evidence for
it being seriously invasive, and have looked; it doesn't have more
seed than most umbellifers, they all have a low success rate, and it
requires fairly specific conditions to thrive.

And I have been prescribed belladonna ....

Dose makes the poison.

It made me as high as a kite :-)

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Plant IDs, anyone?

Hi all - on 18/10/19 I said ...

Hello folks: can anyone identify two plants that are currently
prospering in our garden? I hope you can see them at

https://photos.app.goo.gl/5Ebgj4oWNHEwXkdi9

Plant A is as you can see about as tall as my wife, who is 5'4". The
leaf is alongside. Personally I think it's an evening primrose that's
too late for its season. OTOH, the leaves are also reminiscent of a
teazel, but without a prickle in sight.

Plant B: again, as tall as my wife. She thinks it's a dahlia, gone mad
because it's missed its season (or perhaps because of the excessive
drinking it has been forced to do this year). It's not in "the dahlia
bed", because we don't have a dahlia bed: my wife likes to "just bung
'em in where she finds a space", hence she wouldn't be surprised if it
is a dahlia.

Thanks for all the replies, and speculations, and thread swerves! In
looking at it all, and having also consulted a local botanical expert
whom we found, we've concluded that BOTH plants are forms of Niger Seed
plant.

Stewart suggested this, and Jeff concurred, but to me at the time I
wasn't convinced (Well I mean! How could such tiny seeds produce such
immense plants!). However, looking for 'niger seed plant uk' in Google
images shows one or two pictures which are very close to _both_ plants -
i.e. two different species.

We've fed niger seed to the birds for years, but never had any sprout
like this: must have been the crazy weather we've had this year.

Neither has ever shown any sign of flowering, btw, which would have
clinched it - too late for that. (Unless we not get a November
heatwave!)

Happy mothballing all, and thanks

John

Plant IDs, anyone?

On 01/11/2019 10:24, Another John wrote:
Hi all - on 18/10/19 I said ...

Hello folks: can anyone identify two plants that are currently
prospering in our garden? I hope you can see them at

https://photos.app.goo.gl/5Ebgj4oWNHEwXkdi9

Plant A is as you can see about as tall as my wife, who is 5'4". The
leaf is alongside. Personally I think it's an evening primrose that's
too late for its season. OTOH, the leaves are also reminiscent of a
teazel, but without a prickle in sight.

Plant B: again, as tall as my wife. She thinks it's a dahlia, gone mad
because it's missed its season (or perhaps because of the excessive
drinking it has been forced to do this year). It's not in "the dahlia
bed", because we don't have a dahlia bed: my wife likes to "just bung
'em in where she finds a space", hence she wouldn't be surprised if it
is a dahlia.

Thanks for all the replies, and speculations, and thread swerves! In
looking at it all, and having also consulted a local botanical expert
whom we found, we've concluded that BOTH plants are forms of Niger Seed
plant.

Stewart suggested this, and Jeff concurred, but to me at the time I
wasn't convinced (Well I mean! How could such tiny seeds produce such
immense plants!). However, looking for 'niger seed plant uk' in Google
images shows one or two pictures which are very close to _both_ plants -
i.e. two different species.

We've fed niger seed to the birds for years, but never had any sprout
like this: must have been the crazy weather we've had this year.

Neither has ever shown any sign of flowering, btw, which would have
clinched it - too late for that. (Unless we not get a November
heatwave!)

Happy mothballing all, and thanks

John

Wikipedia says the nyger seed is heat treated to stop germination - this
is more to do with contaminant seeds than nyger itself - and that this
results in the odd seed that germinates producing stunted plants, which
might explain why the Guizotia abyssinica (also not flowering) that I
saw in a maize field on the 27th was under a foot in height. In your
case perhaps a few seeds sneaked into the mix after the heat treatment.

Edaphic conditions can affect the size and compactness of plants and the
size and even the shape of leaves, but leaf venation is more consistent.
That was why I was reasonably confident that it wasn't Epilobium hirsutum.

Guizotia scabra is rarely recorded in Britain (a total of 10 records in
the BSBI database), but is known to have been overlooked at Guizotia
scabra. I'm moderately confident that plant A is this, but would like to
confirm that it is not just hairy but also glandular hairy (sticky).

I'm skeptical that plant B is Guizotia, in that it has ternate and
petiolate leaves. The Flora of Tropical East Africa description of the
genus reads "Annual or perennial herbs or shrubs. Leaves opposite or
rarely ternate, the upper leaves often alternate, dotted with resin/oil
drops on lower leaf surface ..."

If that really means ternate (composed of three leaflets) the ternate
leaves of plant B do not absolutely rule out Guizotia, but the context
suggests that it instead means in whorls of three.

The Flora of Tropical East Africa description of Guizotia abyssinica
reads "Annual herb 1–2 m high, erect; stems often purplish, pilose to
glabrous. Leaves sessile, subconnate-perfoliate, lanceolate to
oblanceolate, 10–15 cm long, 2–6 cm wide, base truncate to cordate,
margins entire to serrate, apex acute, scabrid on both surfaces, with
sessile glands ..."

So plant B isn't the common nyger aka Guizotia abyssinica. It's not
Guizotia arborescens (shrubby) or Guizotia jacksonii (creeping) or
Guizotia zavattarii (glandular woolly stems and sessile leaves) or
Guizotia villosa (small plant with sessile leaves), or Guizotia
schimperi (sessile leaves). That seems to have eliminated all the species.

I continue to have a hunch that plant B is some form of Bidens, but I
open to better suggestions. For what it's worth, the leaflets of plant B
do look somewhat similar to the leaves of Guizotia, but they're broadest
near the base, not past the middle.

PS: as for the size of the plants and the seeds, Epilobium hirsutum
seeds are smaller.

--
SRH

Plant IDs, anyone?

In article ,
Stewart Robert Hinsley wrote:

[lots!]

I continue to have a hunch that plant B is some form of Bidens, but I
open to better suggestions. For what it's worth, the leaflets of plant B
do look somewhat similar to the leaves of Guizotia, but they're broadest
near the base, not past the middle.

Thanks for your extensive analysis Stewart - remarkable. So ... "the
hunt goes on" :-) We won't be grubbing them up and composting them any
time soon.

PS: as for the size of the plants and the seeds, Epilobium hirsutum
seeds are smaller.

Well yes -- I was joking :-) I always think for foxgloves, and even
more the Great Mullein, which are whacking sturdy plants!

Cheers
John

Plant IDs, anyone?

On 01/11/2019 17:38, Another John wrote:
In article ,
Stewart Robert Hinsley wrote:

[lots!]

I continue to have a hunch that plant B is some form of Bidens, but I
open to better suggestions. For what it's worth, the leaflets of plant B
do look somewhat similar to the leaves of Guizotia, but they're broadest
near the base, not past the middle.

Thanks for your extensive analysis Stewart - remarkable. So ... "the
hunt goes on" :-) We won't be grubbing them up and composting them any
time soon.

PS: as for the size of the plants and the seeds, Epilobium hirsutum
seeds are smaller.

Well yes -- I was joking :-) I always think for foxgloves, and even
more the Great Mullein, which are whacking sturdy plants!

Cheers
John

When winter arrives you may be able to make a judgement as to whether
the plants (particular plant B, where the Dahlia hypothesis is
plausible) are annual or perennial.

--
SRH

Plant IDs, anyone?

On 01/11/2019 17:38, Another John wrote:
Well yes -- I was joking:-) I always think for foxgloves, and even
more the Great Mullein, which are whacking sturdy plants!

Foxgloves, ah yes, talking of poisonous plants...

Andy