GardenBanter.co.uk - Plant IDs, anyone?

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Plant IDs, anyone?

Hi all - on 18/10/19 I said ...

Hello folks: can anyone identify two plants that are currently
prospering in our garden? I hope you can see them at

https://photos.app.goo.gl/5Ebgj4oWNHEwXkdi9

Plant A is as you can see about as tall as my wife, who is 5'4". The
leaf is alongside. Personally I think it's an evening primrose that's
too late for its season. OTOH, the leaves are also reminiscent of a
teazel, but without a prickle in sight.

Plant B: again, as tall as my wife. She thinks it's a dahlia, gone mad
because it's missed its season (or perhaps because of the excessive
drinking it has been forced to do this year). It's not in "the dahlia
bed", because we don't have a dahlia bed: my wife likes to "just bung
'em in where she finds a space", hence she wouldn't be surprised if it
is a dahlia.

Thanks for all the replies, and speculations, and thread swerves! In
looking at it all, and having also consulted a local botanical expert
whom we found, we've concluded that BOTH plants are forms of Niger Seed
plant.

Stewart suggested this, and Jeff concurred, but to me at the time I
wasn't convinced (Well I mean! How could such tiny seeds produce such
immense plants!). However, looking for 'niger seed plant uk' in Google
images shows one or two pictures which are very close to _both_ plants -
i.e. two different species.

We've fed niger seed to the birds for years, but never had any sprout
like this: must have been the crazy weather we've had this year.

Neither has ever shown any sign of flowering, btw, which would have
clinched it - too late for that. (Unless we not get a November
heatwave!)

Happy mothballing all, and thanks

John

Plant IDs, anyone?

On 01/11/2019 10:24, Another John wrote:
Hi all - on 18/10/19 I said ...

Hello folks: can anyone identify two plants that are currently
prospering in our garden? I hope you can see them at

https://photos.app.goo.gl/5Ebgj4oWNHEwXkdi9

Plant A is as you can see about as tall as my wife, who is 5'4". The
leaf is alongside. Personally I think it's an evening primrose that's
too late for its season. OTOH, the leaves are also reminiscent of a
teazel, but without a prickle in sight.

Plant B: again, as tall as my wife. She thinks it's a dahlia, gone mad
because it's missed its season (or perhaps because of the excessive
drinking it has been forced to do this year). It's not in "the dahlia
bed", because we don't have a dahlia bed: my wife likes to "just bung
'em in where she finds a space", hence she wouldn't be surprised if it
is a dahlia.

Thanks for all the replies, and speculations, and thread swerves! In
looking at it all, and having also consulted a local botanical expert
whom we found, we've concluded that BOTH plants are forms of Niger Seed
plant.

Stewart suggested this, and Jeff concurred, but to me at the time I
wasn't convinced (Well I mean! How could such tiny seeds produce such
immense plants!). However, looking for 'niger seed plant uk' in Google
images shows one or two pictures which are very close to _both_ plants -
i.e. two different species.

We've fed niger seed to the birds for years, but never had any sprout
like this: must have been the crazy weather we've had this year.

Neither has ever shown any sign of flowering, btw, which would have
clinched it - too late for that. (Unless we not get a November
heatwave!)

Happy mothballing all, and thanks

John

Wikipedia says the nyger seed is heat treated to stop germination - this
is more to do with contaminant seeds than nyger itself - and that this
results in the odd seed that germinates producing stunted plants, which
might explain why the Guizotia abyssinica (also not flowering) that I
saw in a maize field on the 27th was under a foot in height. In your
case perhaps a few seeds sneaked into the mix after the heat treatment.

Edaphic conditions can affect the size and compactness of plants and the
size and even the shape of leaves, but leaf venation is more consistent.
That was why I was reasonably confident that it wasn't Epilobium hirsutum.

Guizotia scabra is rarely recorded in Britain (a total of 10 records in
the BSBI database), but is known to have been overlooked at Guizotia
scabra. I'm moderately confident that plant A is this, but would like to
confirm that it is not just hairy but also glandular hairy (sticky).

I'm skeptical that plant B is Guizotia, in that it has ternate and
petiolate leaves. The Flora of Tropical East Africa description of the
genus reads "Annual or perennial herbs or shrubs. Leaves opposite or
rarely ternate, the upper leaves often alternate, dotted with resin/oil
drops on lower leaf surface ..."

If that really means ternate (composed of three leaflets) the ternate
leaves of plant B do not absolutely rule out Guizotia, but the context
suggests that it instead means in whorls of three.

The Flora of Tropical East Africa description of Guizotia abyssinica
reads "Annual herb 1–2 m high, erect; stems often purplish, pilose to
glabrous. Leaves sessile, subconnate-perfoliate, lanceolate to
oblanceolate, 10–15 cm long, 2–6 cm wide, base truncate to cordate,
margins entire to serrate, apex acute, scabrid on both surfaces, with
sessile glands ..."

So plant B isn't the common nyger aka Guizotia abyssinica. It's not
Guizotia arborescens (shrubby) or Guizotia jacksonii (creeping) or
Guizotia zavattarii (glandular woolly stems and sessile leaves) or
Guizotia villosa (small plant with sessile leaves), or Guizotia
schimperi (sessile leaves). That seems to have eliminated all the species.

I continue to have a hunch that plant B is some form of Bidens, but I
open to better suggestions. For what it's worth, the leaflets of plant B
do look somewhat similar to the leaves of Guizotia, but they're broadest
near the base, not past the middle.

PS: as for the size of the plants and the seeds, Epilobium hirsutum
seeds are smaller.

--
SRH

Plant IDs, anyone?

In article ,
Stewart Robert Hinsley wrote:

[lots!]

I continue to have a hunch that plant B is some form of Bidens, but I
open to better suggestions. For what it's worth, the leaflets of plant B
do look somewhat similar to the leaves of Guizotia, but they're broadest
near the base, not past the middle.

Thanks for your extensive analysis Stewart - remarkable. So ... "the
hunt goes on" :-) We won't be grubbing them up and composting them any
time soon.

PS: as for the size of the plants and the seeds, Epilobium hirsutum
seeds are smaller.

Well yes -- I was joking :-) I always think for foxgloves, and even
more the Great Mullein, which are whacking sturdy plants!

Cheers
John

Plant IDs, anyone?

On 01/11/2019 17:38, Another John wrote:
In article ,
Stewart Robert Hinsley wrote:

[lots!]

I continue to have a hunch that plant B is some form of Bidens, but I
open to better suggestions. For what it's worth, the leaflets of plant B
do look somewhat similar to the leaves of Guizotia, but they're broadest
near the base, not past the middle.

Thanks for your extensive analysis Stewart - remarkable. So ... "the
hunt goes on" :-) We won't be grubbing them up and composting them any
time soon.

PS: as for the size of the plants and the seeds, Epilobium hirsutum
seeds are smaller.

Well yes -- I was joking :-) I always think for foxgloves, and even
more the Great Mullein, which are whacking sturdy plants!

Cheers
John

When winter arrives you may be able to make a judgement as to whether
the plants (particular plant B, where the Dahlia hypothesis is
plausible) are annual or perennial.

--
SRH

Plant IDs, anyone?

On 01/11/2019 17:38, Another John wrote:
Well yes -- I was joking:-) I always think for foxgloves, and even
more the Great Mullein, which are whacking sturdy plants!

Foxgloves, ah yes, talking of poisonous plants...

Andy