|
Planning permission - Lean-to Greenhouse/shed
Hi,
We have a six foot high wooden fence at the end of our garden in not so sunny Aberdeen. I want to replace the fence with a breeze block wall. Two questions:- a) what height of wall can you build without needing planning permission? b) can I build a lean-to greenhouse/shed without planning permission? I would intend it to run the full length of the new wall. Thanks in advance, Chris S |
Planning permission - Lean-to Greenhouse/shed
The message
from "Chris Stewart" contains these words: Hi, We have a six foot high wooden fence at the end of our garden in not so sunny Aberdeen. I want to replace the fence with a breeze block wall. Two questions:- a) what height of wall can you build without needing planning permission? b) can I build a lean-to greenhouse/shed without planning permission? I would intend it to run the full length of the new wall. I don't know about Aberdeen, but you can't build *anything* "permanent" in Perth without planning permission. -- AnneJ ICQ #:- 119531282 |
Planning permission - Lean-to Greenhouse/shed
"Chris Stewart" wrote in message ... Hi, We have a six foot high wooden fence at the end of our garden in not so sunny Aberdeen. I want to replace the fence with a breeze block wall. Two questions:- a) what height of wall can you build without needing planning permission? b) can I build a lean-to greenhouse/shed without planning permission? uk.legal would be a good place to ask this. Marcus |
Planning permission - Lean-to Greenhouse/shed
uk.legal would be a good place to ask this. Perhaps not because Scotland has a different legal framework. Go and talk to your local planners who will tell the facts including any local peculiarities. |
Planning permission - Lean-to Greenhouse/shed
"Chris Stewart" wrote in message ... Hi, We have a six foot high wooden fence at the end of our garden in not so sunny Aberdeen. I want to replace the fence with a breeze block wall. Two questions:- a) what height of wall can you build without needing planning permission? Don't know, but:- b) can I build a lean-to greenhouse/shed without planning permission? Yes Alan -- Reply to alan(at)windsor-berks(dot)freeserve(dot)co(dot)uk |
Planning permission - Lean-to Greenhouse/shed
The message
from "Chris Stewart" contains these words: Hi, We have a six foot high wooden fence at the end of our garden in not so sunny Aberdeen. I want to replace the fence with a breeze block wall. Two questions:- a) what height of wall can you build without needing planning permission? b) can I build a lean-to greenhouse/shed without planning permission? Why not just phone the local planning/building control office and ask their advice? That's what we've always done, and found them very helpful; it's free up to date and accurate. Areas aften have different restrictions on garden structures; it's quite possible to not require PP or to conform to BC, but be limited by title deeds or feu superiors. Janet. |
Planning permission - Lean-to Greenhouse/shed
"Marcus Fox" wrote in message ... "Chris Stewart" wrote in message ... Hi, We have a six foot high wooden fence at the end of our garden in not so sunny Aberdeen. I want to replace the fence with a breeze block wall. Two questions:- a) what height of wall can you build without needing planning permission? b) can I build a lean-to greenhouse/shed without planning permission? uk.legal would be a good place to ask this. Marcus What a sensible chap - I'll do just that. Thanks Marcus Chris S |
Planning permission - Lean-to Greenhouse/shed
The message
from "Alan Holmes" contains these words: b) can I build a lean-to greenhouse/shed without planning permission? Yes However, in Scotland, even when you don't need PP, Building Control have regulations about whereabouts on your land they can be located, in relation to your "building line" and neighbouring boundaries; and some feu superiorities have similar tight conditions. Janet. |
Planning permission - Lean-to Greenhouse/shed
"Alan Holmes" wrote in message ... "Chris Stewart" wrote in message ... Hi, We have a six foot high wooden fence at the end of our garden in not so sunny Aberdeen. I want to replace the fence with a breeze block wall. Two questions:- a) what height of wall can you build without needing planning permission? Don't know, but:- b) can I build a lean-to greenhouse/shed without planning permission? Yes Quite right, absence of planning consent doesn't actually prevent one from doing anything. It's the risk of enforcement action likely to be taken if you 'transgress' which does that. If worried that what one has in mind might require consent, the simplest answer, as has already been suggested, is to have an informal chat with a duty officer at your local planning authority. A person might also check the title documents to see whether anything enforceable runs with the land to limit the right to erect outbuildings. |
Planning permission - Lean-to Greenhouse/shed
In article , Chris Stewart writes "Marcus Fox" wrote in message ... "Chris Stewart" wrote in message ... Hi, We have a six foot high wooden fence at the end of our garden in not so sunny Aberdeen. I want to replace the fence with a breeze block wall. Two questions:- a) what height of wall can you build without needing planning permission? b) can I build a lean-to greenhouse/shed without planning permission? uk.legal would be a good place to ask this. What a sensible chap - I'll do just that. Why bother with another newsgroup which, whatever its collective wisdom in legal matters, is highly unlikely to be able to give you the authoritative *local* information regarding walls and sheds in Aberdeen that you can get from visiting or phoning your local authority planning department? It is they, and they alone, who can tell you exactly what you want to know. Not only that, but you should receive an immediate answer precisely focussed on your particular local enquiry, without having to wait for, and then sift, the responses on the newsgroup. -- Malcolm |
Planning permission - Lean-to Greenhouse/shed
"Malcolm" wrote in message ... In article , Chris Stewart writes "Marcus Fox" wrote in message ... "Chris Stewart" wrote in message ... Hi, We have a six foot high wooden fence at the end of our garden in not so sunny Aberdeen. I want to replace the fence with a breeze block wall. Two questions:- a) what height of wall can you build without needing planning permission? b) can I build a lean-to greenhouse/shed without planning permission? uk.legal would be a good place to ask this. What a sensible chap - I'll do just that. Why bother with another newsgroup which, whatever its collective wisdom in legal matters, is highly unlikely to be able to give you the authoritative *local* information regarding walls and sheds in Aberdeen that you can get from visiting or phoning your local authority planning department? It is they, and they alone, who can tell you exactly what you want to know. Not only that, but you should receive an immediate answer precisely focussed on your particular local enquiry, without having to wait for, and then sift, the responses on the newsgroup. Quite right - advice from a legal newsgroup would cut little ice with an enforcement officer, should one appear on the doorstep at some future juncture, or with a future buyers' lawyers should you try to sell a house without the relevant consent or a 'letter of comfort' from the LPA. The local planning authority actually employs people to advise members of the public on questions like the one concerned. |
Planning permission - Lean-to Greenhouse/shed
In article , "BAC" writes: | "Malcolm" wrote in message | ... | | Why bother with another newsgroup which, whatever its collective wisdom | in legal matters, is highly unlikely to be able to give you the | authoritative *local* information regarding walls and sheds in Aberdeen | that you can get from visiting or phoning your local authority planning | department? | | It is they, and they alone, who can tell you exactly what you want to | know. Not only that, but you should receive an immediate answer | precisely focussed on your particular local enquiry, without having to | wait for, and then sift, the responses on the newsgroup. | | Quite right - advice from a legal newsgroup would cut little ice with an | enforcement officer, should one appear on the doorstep at some future | juncture, or with a future buyers' lawyers should you try to sell a house | without the relevant consent or a 'letter of comfort' from the LPA. The | local planning authority actually employs people to advise members of the | public on questions like the one concerned. Well, they may be helpful, but they may merely tell you what they want you to think. There is no comeback on them if they tell you completely bogus information, intended to make you think that you have fewer rights than you do, if that is their policy. There are several local authorities that are notorious for abusing their powers, and a far greater number that are thoroughly confused (for which I don't blame them). Furthermore, if you check up with the relevant legislation etc., you will find that almost the only location that has significant LOCAL regulations is Greater London. Almost everywhere else, the local variations are simply up to the how the local authority interprets the vague and obscure legislation. In some cases, they have the power to turn such interpretations into law; in other cases, they don't; in the majority of cases, nobody knows if they do or not, because no relevant dispute has reached the House of Lords :-( It is worth asking them what THEIR view is, but it is assuredly worth checking up if it doesn't match what you want to do. This newsgroup and uk.legal are good starts. In this particular case, I have a copy of only the 1971 Act at home, but I believe that the relevant rules have not changed. There is nothing about garden walls or garden sheds, and my information is that the courts generally agree that they do NOT need planning permission unless they have services. What they may need is BUILDING permission and/or the go-ahead of the local Highways Authority (if they are near a road). In London, there are by-laws on the height of walls. It is unclear whether other local authorities have the power to pass such by-laws, especially since their emasculation during the Thatcher years. If they don't have, then any such by-laws that they HAVE made will be void. But you won't get told that by the local authority! I doubt that the above clarifies anything :-( Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
Planning permission - Lean-to Greenhouse/shed
In article , Nick Maclaren writes In article , "BAC" writes: | "Malcolm" wrote in message | ... | | Why bother with another newsgroup which, whatever its collective wisdom | in legal matters, is highly unlikely to be able to give you the | authoritative *local* information regarding walls and sheds in Aberdeen | that you can get from visiting or phoning your local authority planning | department? | | It is they, and they alone, who can tell you exactly what you want to | know. Not only that, but you should receive an immediate answer | precisely focussed on your particular local enquiry, without having to | wait for, and then sift, the responses on the newsgroup. | | Quite right - advice from a legal newsgroup would cut little ice with an | enforcement officer, should one appear on the doorstep at some future | juncture, or with a future buyers' lawyers should you try to sell a house | without the relevant consent or a 'letter of comfort' from the LPA. The | local planning authority actually employs people to advise members of the | public on questions like the one concerned. Well, they may be helpful, but they may merely tell you what they want you to think. There is no comeback on them if they tell you completely bogus information, intended to make you think that you have fewer rights than you do, if that is their policy. There are several local authorities that are notorious for abusing their powers, and a far greater number that are thoroughly confused (for which I don't blame them). Furthermore, if you check up with the relevant legislation etc., you will find that almost the only location that has significant LOCAL regulations is Greater London. Almost everywhere else, the local variations are simply up to the how the local authority interprets the vague and obscure legislation. In some cases, they have the power to turn such interpretations into law; in other cases, they don't; in the majority of cases, nobody knows if they do or not, because no relevant dispute has reached the House of Lords :-( It is worth asking them what THEIR view is, but it is assuredly worth checking up if it doesn't match what you want to do. This newsgroup and uk.legal are good starts. In this particular case, I have a copy of only the 1971 Act at home, but I believe that the relevant rules have not changed. There is nothing about garden walls or garden sheds, and my information is that the courts generally agree that they do NOT need planning permission unless they have services. What they may need is BUILDING permission and/or the go-ahead of the local Highways Authority (if they are near a road). In London, there are by-laws on the height of walls. It is unclear whether other local authorities have the power to pass such by-laws, especially since their emasculation during the Thatcher years. If they don't have, then any such by-laws that they HAVE made will be void. But you won't get told that by the local authority! I doubt that the above clarifies anything :-( No, I don't think it does, in the slightest! The more especially as the questioner lives in Aberdeen and planning is a devolved matter in Scotland so information about what happens in Greater London, or indeed happened in the Thatcher years, doesn't really help him very much. Aberdeen City Council, which was only formed in 1996, will no doubt be able to advise on planning regulations operating, as it does, under the Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Act 1997, which repealed the Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Act 1972, which in turn was the Scottish version of the Town and Country Planning Act 1971 from which you quoted. Therefore, the answer *has* to come from the local planning department, while asking questions on newsgroups will not (indeed almost certainly cannot) produce the same definitive answer, however "bogus" you might think it could be based on your apparent experience of, presumably English, local authorities and regardless of decisions made by, presumably English, courts, neither of which are relevant in this instance. -- Malcolm |
Planning permission - Lean-to Greenhouse/shed
In article ,
Malcolm wrote: No, I don't think it does, in the slightest! The more especially as the questioner lives in Aberdeen and planning is a devolved matter in Scotland so information about what happens in Greater London, or indeed happened in the Thatcher years, doesn't really help him very much. It provides background to why your response is unreliable. You may not regard that as help, but he might. Aberdeen City Council, which was only formed in 1996, will no doubt be able to advise on planning regulations operating, as it does, under the Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Act 1997, which repealed the Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Act 1972, which in turn was the Scottish version of the Town and Country Planning Act 1971 from which you quoted. Would you like to quote the relevant section of the 1997 Act that gives local authorities powers to make regulations? If not, why not provide SOME hint as to why you are saying that it gives VASTLY more powers to them than the 1971 Act does? I am saying that I have been told by a fairly reliable source that it does not. My source have been wrong, or I may have misunderstood, but it is certainly a matter that the initial questioner should check up on if the local authority is uncooperative or gives an unpalatable answer. Therefore, the answer *has* to come from the local planning department, while asking questions on newsgroups will not (indeed almost certainly cannot) produce the same definitive answer, however "bogus" you might think it could be based on your apparent experience of, presumably English, local authorities and regardless of decisions made by, presumably English, courts, neither of which are relevant in this instance. Your presumptions are, as usual, unwarranted. As you ought to know, the matter of delegated powers is one where Scottish and English used to vary considerably, but now do so much less, as the result of huge amounts of statute legislation and the consequent court cases. In both cases, there is no penalty on a local authority for misleading questioners, and my point about the untrustworthiness of a response remains valid. No, the answer does NOT "have to" come from the local authority, despite what you or other apparatchiks may believe. To repeat what I said, if he gets advice that conflicts seriously with what he wants to do, he should check if the local authority is correct. There is a significant chance that it is not, and a small chance that it is deliberately misleading him. And that advice applies as much to Scotland as to England. Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
Planning permission - Lean-to Greenhouse/shed
In article , Nick Maclaren writes In article , Malcolm wrote: No, I don't think it does, in the slightest! The more especially as the questioner lives in Aberdeen and planning is a devolved matter in Scotland so information about what happens in Greater London, or indeed happened in the Thatcher years, doesn't really help him very much. It provides background to why your response is unreliable. You may not regard that as help, but he might. What is the use of English-based background to a planning (or not as the case may be) matter in Aberdeen? Precious little. Aberdeen City Council, which was only formed in 1996, will no doubt be able to advise on planning regulations operating, as it does, under the Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Act 1997, which repealed the Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Act 1972, which in turn was the Scottish version of the Town and Country Planning Act 1971 from which you quoted. Would you like to quote the relevant section of the 1997 Act that gives local authorities powers to make regulations? If not, why not provide SOME hint as to why you are saying that it gives VASTLY more powers to them than the 1971 Act does? You're just weird, you are! Where, please, do I say anything about it giving "VASTLY more powers"? I can't see any words of mine like that so why do you claim that I have written them, or even implied them? What I have pointed out is that there is a 1997 planning act in Scotland which, by virtue of its date, its geographic scope and the fact that it was passed by the devolved Scottish parliament, is significantly more relevant than the 1971 Act which you quoted. Doubly so as the 1971 Act has a Scotland version, the 1972 Act, which is specifically repealed by the 1997 Act. I am saying that I have been told by a fairly reliable source that it does not. My source have been wrong, or I may have misunderstood, but it is certainly a matter that the initial questioner should check up on if the local authority is uncooperative or gives an unpalatable answer. But, before he can do that and before he knows whether or not his local authority is uncooperative or gives an unpalatable advice, he *has* to contact them, which is precisely the advice I have proffered. Therefore, the answer *has* to come from the local planning department, while asking questions on newsgroups will not (indeed almost certainly cannot) produce the same definitive answer, however "bogus" you might think it could be based on your apparent experience of, presumably English, local authorities and regardless of decisions made by, presumably English, courts, neither of which are relevant in this instance. Your presumptions are, as usual, unwarranted. Err, no, I don't think so. I know you are a (self-professed) expert in a wide diversity of subjects but somehow I doubt whether the operation of Scottish local authority planning departments or Scottish planning law is among them. I don't pretend to expertise, but at least I have some personal experience of both. As you ought to know, the matter of delegated powers is one where Scottish and English used to vary considerably, but now do so much less, as the result of huge amounts of statute legislation and the consequent court cases. In both cases, there is no penalty on a local authority for misleading questioners, and my point about the untrustworthiness of a response remains valid. No, the answer does NOT "have to" come from the local authority, despite what you or other apparatchiks may believe. I understand an "apparatchik" as being an implementer of policy for an organisation, formerly a communist one. Being self-employed, I hardly fit with your feeble jibe. And, eventually, whatever circuitous route is taken, the final answer *will* have to come from the local authority. To repeat what I said, if he gets advice that conflicts seriously with what he wants to do, he should check if the local authority is correct. There is a significant chance that it is not, and a small chance that it is deliberately misleading him. And that advice applies as much to Scotland as to England. But, and it seems one has to return to this point, he *still* *has* to contact his local authority planning department if he wants *any* advice on what he is or is not permitted to do specifically in Aberdeen. Offering advice (or background) based on the situation in England either now or 30 years ago is not going to help him. -- Malcolm |
Planning permission - Lean-to Greenhouse/shed
In article ,
Malcolm wrote: You're just weird, you are! Where, please, do I say anything about it giving "VASTLY more powers"? I can't see any words of mine like that so why do you claim that I have written them, or even implied them? Because the 1971 Act does not give local authorities powers to control things like garden walls and sheds. You are claiming that the 1997 (Scotland) Act does. That IS "VASTLY more powers". What I have pointed out is that there is a 1997 planning act in Scotland which, by virtue of its date, its geographic scope and the fact that it was passed by the devolved Scottish parliament, is significantly more relevant than the 1971 Act which you quoted. Doubly so as the 1971 Act has a Scotland version, the 1972 Act, which is specifically repealed by the 1997 Act. You are also claiming that the ONLY people who can give advice are the local authority. For that to be true, they would have to have powers to control the developments in question. If they don't have, then ANYONE who knows the 1997 Act can say "Build away. If they hassle you, tell them to bugger off." Your presumptions are, as usual, unwarranted. Err, no, I don't think so. I know you are a (self-professed) expert in a wide diversity of subjects but somehow I doubt whether the operation of Scottish local authority planning departments or Scottish planning law is among them. I don't pretend to expertise, but at least I have some personal experience of both. Your presumption that I was basing my statements on English court cases is unwarranted. For example, I have received Email from several Scottish residents about their hassles with planning authorities and, in some cases, the difference between the law as written and the law as interpreted by them. But, and it seems one has to return to this point, he *still* *has* to contact his local authority planning department if he wants *any* advice on what he is or is not permitted to do specifically in Aberdeen. Offering advice (or background) based on the situation in England either now or 30 years ago is not going to help him. Twaddle. If the local authority planning department has no powers to restrict what he can do, then he does not need to contact them for advice or anything else. Even if it does, he can get advice from anyone who knows the situation, whether via uk.legal or by paying a lawyer. Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
Planning permission - Lean-to Greenhouse/shed
"BAC" wrote in message ... "Alan Holmes" wrote in message ... "Chris Stewart" wrote in message ... Hi, We have a six foot high wooden fence at the end of our garden in not so sunny Aberdeen. I want to replace the fence with a breeze block wall. Two questions:- a) what height of wall can you build without needing planning permission? Don't know, but:- b) can I build a lean-to greenhouse/shed without planning permission? Yes Quite right, absence of planning consent doesn't actually prevent one from doing anything. It's the risk of enforcement action likely to be taken if you 'transgress' which does that. If worried that what one has in mind might require consent, the simplest answer, as has already been suggested, is to have an informal chat with a duty officer at your local planning authority. A person might also check the title documents to see whether anything enforceable runs with the land to limit the right to erect outbuildings. Thanks chaps and chappesses, obviously I need to talk to the local planners. No need to get aerated about the subject, though - if you don't know, then that's fine. I only asked! Chris S |
Planning permission - Lean-to Greenhouse/shed
"Chris Stewart" wrote in message ... "BAC" wrote in message ... "Alan Holmes" wrote in message ... "Chris Stewart" wrote in message ... Hi, We have a six foot high wooden fence at the end of our garden in not so sunny Aberdeen. I want to replace the fence with a breeze block wall. Two questions:- a) what height of wall can you build without needing planning permission? Don't know, but:- b) can I build a lean-to greenhouse/shed without planning permission? Yes Quite right, absence of planning consent doesn't actually prevent one from doing anything. It's the risk of enforcement action likely to be taken if you 'transgress' which does that. If worried that what one has in mind might require consent, the simplest answer, as has already been suggested, is to have an informal chat with a duty officer at your local planning authority. A person might also check the title documents to see whether anything enforceable runs with the land to limit the right to erect outbuildings. Thanks chaps and chappesses, obviously I need to talk to the local planners. No need to get aerated about the subject, though - if you don't know, then that's fine. I only asked! Sorry about the argument. I expect your planners will give you all the guidance you need, hopefully the go ahead to get on with what you have in mind. If not, you might be wise to consult a professional planning consultant, since getting planners to change their mind can be a lengthy and costly business. |
Planning permission - Lean-to Greenhouse/shed
"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message ... In article , "BAC" writes: | "Malcolm" wrote in message | ... | | Why bother with another newsgroup which, whatever its collective wisdom | in legal matters, is highly unlikely to be able to give you the | authoritative *local* information regarding walls and sheds in Aberdeen | that you can get from visiting or phoning your local authority planning | department? | | It is they, and they alone, who can tell you exactly what you want to | know. Not only that, but you should receive an immediate answer | precisely focussed on your particular local enquiry, without having to | wait for, and then sift, the responses on the newsgroup. | | Quite right - advice from a legal newsgroup would cut little ice with an | enforcement officer, should one appear on the doorstep at some future | juncture, or with a future buyers' lawyers should you try to sell a house | without the relevant consent or a 'letter of comfort' from the LPA. The | local planning authority actually employs people to advise members of the | public on questions like the one concerned. Well, they may be helpful, but they may merely tell you what they want you to think. There is no comeback on them if they tell you completely bogus information, intended to make you think that you have fewer rights than you do, if that is their policy. There are several local authorities that are notorious for abusing their powers, and a far greater number that are thoroughly confused (for which I don't blame them). Furthermore, if you check up with the relevant legislation etc., you will find that almost the only location that has significant LOCAL regulations is Greater London. Almost everywhere else, the local variations are simply up to the how the local authority interprets the vague and obscure legislation. In some cases, they have the power to turn such interpretations into law; in other cases, they don't; in the majority of cases, nobody knows if they do or not, because no relevant dispute has reached the House of Lords :-( It is worth asking them what THEIR view is, but it is assuredly worth checking up if it doesn't match what you want to do. This newsgroup and uk.legal are good starts. Of course it is worth asking them what their view is, because it is their view they would be likely to act on. If their view is not the one desired, then by all means take further advice, but I would suggest use of a professional planning consultant. In this particular case, I have a copy of only the 1971 Act at home, but I believe that the relevant rules have not changed. There is nothing about garden walls or garden sheds, and my information is that the courts generally agree that they do NOT need planning permission unless they have services. What they may need is BUILDING permission and/or the go-ahead of the local Highways Authority (if they are near a road). All recent planning legislation, both Acts and SI's, is published on the Web by HMSO. Another useful source is http://www.gardenlaw.co.uk/walls.html where they express the opinion that PP is needed to build walls over 2 m height (1 m if on highway boundary) plus advise one should contact one's LPA before erecting a boundary fence or wall. Don't know whether that applies to Aberdeen, if it were me, I'd ring and ask them. |
Planning permission - Lean-to Greenhouse/shed
|
Planning permission - Lean-to Greenhouse/shed
In article , Peter Crosland
writes uk.legal would be a good place to ask this. Perhaps not because Scotland has a different legal framework. Go and talk to your local planners who will tell the facts including any local peculiarities. Oh, is Scotland no longer in the uk then? Jon -- E-mail bouncing? Make sure your mailer is set to 'plain text' and not 'html'. |
Planning permission - Lean-to Greenhouse/shed
In article , Peter Crosland
writes uk.legal would be a good place to ask this. Perhaps not because Scotland has a different legal framework. Go and talk to your local planners who will tell the facts including any local peculiarities. Oh, is Scotland no longer in the uk then? Jon -- E-mail bouncing? Make sure your mailer is set to 'plain text' and not 'html'. |
Planning permission - Lean-to Greenhouse/shed
Subject: Planning permission - Lean-to Greenhouse/shed
From: Jon Rouse Date: 03/06/2003 21:32 GMT Daylight Time Message-id: In article , Peter Crosland writes uk.legal would be a good place to ask this. Perhaps not because Scotland has a different legal framework. Go and talk to your local planners who will tell the facts including any local peculiarities. Oh, is Scotland no longer in the uk then? We can but dream... **************************** Rhiannon http://www.members.aol.com/mddestiny/entrypage.html ClipclopclipclopBANGBANGclipclopclip -- Amish driveby shooting |
| All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:12 PM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
GardenBanter