Borage (Off Topic - Top Posting discussion)
 

"David Hill" wrote in message
...
".... Why do people like the answer before the question? ...."

Possibly because some people don't seem to know how to EDIT. threads.
You get a whole string repeated time after time and possibly just 2 or 3
words added, and I for 1 am sick of having to scroll through anything up
to
100 lines to try to find the new bit

--
David Hill

As someone looking to improve my Usenet skills, I see two problems. I agree
with the earlier post that having the 'cart before the horse' does make for
poor reading of a thread, but that presupposes that you can read the whole
thread in one message, rather than reading the same set of responses over
and over again - a real waste of bandwidth, I think.

I do also agree with David, that scrolliing through pages of messages &
replies, just to read an off topic couple of lines, is a pain - ( which is
why I initially welcomed top posts, I admit).

Is the answer to have a posting, plus replies, each of which only contains
it's own text? We would then not be using bandwidth unnecessarily, and
catching up with posts would be quicker. (I appreciate that we are using a
variety of Newsgroup clients).

Sorry to go off-topic - if anyone can point us to authorative Newsgroup
etiquette sources, that would be appreciated.

regards, mbb

Borage (Off Topic - Top Posting discussion)
 

Following up to mbb

Sorry to go off-topic - if anyone can point us to authorative Newsgroup
etiquette sources, that would be appreciated.

I don't think you need it, your on the right track. Only include what
ties your comment in to the thread. (My last post had everything in it
as the mix of top and bottom posting was part of the point).

I think one of the reasons people don't do this is that they are using
a newsreader that does not allow you to:-
highlight that which you wish to reply to, then press reply
the reply is then set up with the quoted text ready to go.
The other thing that bad newsreaders don't do is automatically strip
out sig files, especially because they don't allow "-- " to be
included (truncating the blank) thereby stopping even good newreaders
like Agent from recognising the sig file.
--
Mike Reid
"Art is the lie that reveals the truth" P.Picasso
UK walking "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" (see web for email)
Spain,cuisines and walking "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk"

Borage (Off Topic - Top Posting discussion)
 

"mbb" wrote in message
...


"David Hill" wrote in message
...
".... Why do people like the answer before the question? ...."

Possibly because some people don't seem to know how to EDIT. threads.
You get a whole string repeated time after time and possibly just 2 or 3
words added, and I for 1 am sick of having to scroll through anything up
to
100 lines to try to find the new bit

--
David Hill

As someone looking to improve my Usenet skills, I see two problems. I
agree
with the earlier post that having the 'cart before the horse' does make
for
poor reading of a thread, but that presupposes that you can read the
whole
thread in one message, rather than reading the same set of responses over
and over again - a real waste of bandwidth, I think.

I do also agree with David, that scrolliing through pages of messages &
replies, just to read an off topic couple of lines, is a pain - ( which is
why I initially welcomed top posts, I admit).

Is the answer to have a posting, plus replies, each of which only contains
it's own text? We would then not be using bandwidth unnecessarily, and
catching up with posts would be quicker. (I appreciate that we are using
a
variety of Newsgroup clients).

Unfortunately it does not work when you get replies to replies and replies
to replies to replies and replies which refer to more than one earlier stage
of the thread.
The only sensible thing is for each contributor to try and snip whatever
he/she thinks is irrelevant to what he/she is trying to say. But, *please*,
when you snip, it is good manners and useful if you were to replace the
snipped part with a simple indication "[snip]". This alerts a subsequent
reader to the fact that some snipping has occured, and he/she can look at
earlier versions of the thread to see if the snipped stuff was context or
not.

Sorry to go off-topic - if anyone can point us to authorative Newsgroup
etiquette sources, that would be appreciated.

Somewhere there must be a set of rules for this newsgroup. In those rules
the suggestions for good posting might be listed. That certainly is so in
the case of another ng in which I participate. Moreover, the rules of that
ng are reposted approximately once monthly.

[Franz Heymann]


regards, mbb

Borage (Off Topic - Top Posting discussion)
 

"Franz Heymann" wrote in message
...
snip
Somewhere there must be a set of rules for this newsgroup. In those rules
the suggestions for good posting might be listed. That certainly is so in
the case of another ng in which I participate. Moreover, the rules of
that
ng are reposted approximately once monthly.



You can check out the "official" netiquette recommendations at
http://www.dtcc.edu/cs/rfc1855.html

3.1.3 NetNews Guidelines covers news group posting.

--
Regards,
Alan.

Preserve wildlife - Pickle a SQUIRREL to reply.

Borage (Off Topic - Top Posting discussion)
 

"Franz Heymann" wrote in message
...
snip
Somewhere there must be a set of rules for this newsgroup. In those rules
the suggestions for good posting might be listed. That certainly is so in
the case of another ng in which I participate. Moreover, the rules of
that
ng are reposted approximately once monthly.



You can check out the "official" netiquette recommendations at
http://www.dtcc.edu/cs/rfc1855.html

3.1.3 NetNews Guidelines covers news group posting.

--
Regards,
Alan.

Preserve wildlife - Pickle a SQUIRREL to reply.

Borage (Off Topic - Top Posting discussion)
 

The message
from "mbb" contains these words:

Is the answer to have a posting, plus replies, each of which only contains
it's own text?

No, because other users may miss the original post. It's usual for
threads to have multiple participants coming and going at different
times and broadening the original topic. Posters need to indicate which
later contribution they are responding to.

(snip)
Sorry to go off-topic - if anyone can point us to authorative Newsgroup
etiquette sources, that would be appreciated.

Don't worry, your question is very welcome.

A short version of "how to edit a reply" can be found in a help post
that appears here every week, called abc for newcomers. That post is
also permanently located in google's archives of this group, search at
http://groups.google.com/ (easy help available there).

http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/2000/06/14/quoting

is an excellent guide to how to compose and edit replies. For general
netiquette

http://groups.google.com/googlegroups/help.html

Janet.

Borage (Off Topic - Top Posting discussion)
 

The message
from "mbb" contains these words:

Is the answer to have a posting, plus replies, each of which only contains
it's own text?

No, because other users may miss the original post. It's usual for
threads to have multiple participants coming and going at different
times and broadening the original topic. Posters need to indicate which
later contribution they are responding to.

(snip)
Sorry to go off-topic - if anyone can point us to authorative Newsgroup
etiquette sources, that would be appreciated.

Don't worry, your question is very welcome.

A short version of "how to edit a reply" can be found in a help post
that appears here every week, called abc for newcomers. That post is
also permanently located in google's archives of this group, search at
http://groups.google.com/ (easy help available there).

http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/2000/06/14/quoting

is an excellent guide to how to compose and edit replies. For general
netiquette

http://groups.google.com/googlegroups/help.html

Janet.

Borage (Off Topic - Top Posting discussion)
 

"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from "mbb" contains these words:

Is the answer to have a posting, plus replies, each of which only
contains
it's own text?

No, because other users may miss the original post. It's usual for
threads to have multiple participants coming and going at different
times and broadening the original topic. Posters need to indicate which
later contribution they are responding to.

Janet.


Is it not possible, perhaps with a particular newsreader, to have a root
message, and it's replies, posted/delivered only once? I can appreciate that
various servers disseminate posts in a disimilar speed, but the duplication
of traffic is horrendous - thinks "search for alternative newsreader".

thanks to all for comments and info - back to my boy's tomatoes !!

regards, mbb

Borage (Off Topic - Top Posting discussion)
 

"Alan Gabriel" wrote in message
...

"Franz Heymann" wrote in message
...
snip
Somewhere there must be a set of rules for this newsgroup. In those
rules
the suggestions for good posting might be listed. That certainly is so
in
the case of another ng in which I participate. Moreover, the rules of
that
ng are reposted approximately once monthly.



You can check out the "official" netiquette recommendations at
http://www.dtcc.edu/cs/rfc1855.html

3.1.3 NetNews Guidelines covers news group posting.

I would love to see that, but the page appears to be unavailable.

[Franz Heymann]

Borage (Off Topic - Top Posting discussion)
 

"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from "mbb" contains these words:

Is the answer to have a posting, plus replies, each of which only
contains
it's own text?

No, because other users may miss the original post. It's usual for
threads to have multiple participants coming and going at different
times and broadening the original topic. Posters need to indicate which
later contribution they are responding to.

(snip)
Sorry to go off-topic - if anyone can point us to authorative Newsgroup
etiquette sources, that would be appreciated.

Don't worry, your question is very welcome.

A short version of "how to edit a reply" can be found in a help post
that appears here every week, called abc for newcomers. That post is
also permanently located in google's archives of this group, search at
http://groups.google.com/ (easy help available there).

http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/2000/06/14/quoting
is an excellent guide to how to compose and edit replies. For general
netiquette

This one is a must.

http://groups.google.com/googlegroups/help.html

This one is an even muster....
[Franz Heymann]

Janet.

Borage (Off Topic - Top Posting discussion)
 

Following up to mbb

Is it not possible, perhaps with a particular newsreader, to have a root
message, and it's replies, posted/delivered only once? I can appreciate that
various servers disseminate posts in a disimilar speed, but the duplication
of traffic is horrendous - thinks "search for alternative newsreader".

I don't understand this point. Is the "duplication of traffic" the
unsnipped original message in various replies? If so, I don't think
anything can be done, or do I miss the point?
--
Mike Reid
"Art is the lie that reveals the truth" P.Picasso
UK walking "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" (see web for email)
Spain,cuisines and walking "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk"

Borage (Off Topic - Top Posting discussion)
 

"The Reid" wrote in message
...
Following up to mbb

Is it not possible, perhaps with a particular newsreader, to have a root
message, and it's replies, posted/delivered only once? I can appreciate
that
various servers disseminate posts in a disimilar speed, but the
duplication
of traffic is horrendous - thinks "search for alternative newsreader".

I don't understand this point. Is the "duplication of traffic" the
unsnipped original message in various replies? If so, I don't think
anything can be done, or do I miss the point?
--
Mike Reid
"Art is the lie that reveals the truth" P.Picasso
UK walking "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" (see web for email)
Spain,cuisines and walking "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk"

Indeed it is - looking at this set of messages, each is a copy, (perhaps
edited), of what has gone before, with an additional comment, some top
posted, some bottom, some humourous, some not so! I'm just hoping that this
duplication can be avoided somehow, either by using a clever piece of
newsgroup client software, or convention, or even both. What I would hope
for is one thread, containing the original posting, with each comment, and
the comments to the comments, connnected as part of the one conversation,
with no piece of data downloaded from the server more than once.

I imagine it also depends on whether you download headers, or complete
messages. It's likely that you can capture (almost) all a thread by simply
waiting, and picking up one of the last postings in the thread, (but that is
also not guaranteed to miss comments, I know). I guess if I never went
"broadband", I'd never have noticed,,,,,,,, :¬)

regards, mbb

Borage (Off Topic - Top Posting discussion)
 

"Franz Heymann" wrote in message ...
"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from "mbb" contains these words:

Is the answer to have a posting, plus replies, each of which only
snip


I must be thick.Why are you all using a newsreader.I go to all
google from the web and bbc messageboards. No dowloading no setting up
and at £10 a month it's not dear.Am I missing something other than
offline facility and killfile??? I always thought that the
disadvantage of OE was that mail is accepted for transfer from your e
mail account so therefore spammers know you exist. Sorry to interrupt
but I am an occasional poster. Cheers Ken

Borage (Off Topic - Top Posting discussion)
 

"Ken Saunders" wrote in message
om...
"Franz Heymann" wrote in message
...
"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from "mbb" contains these words:

Is the answer to have a posting, plus replies, each of which only
snip


I must be thick.Why are you all using a newsreader.I go to all
google from the web and bbc messageboards. No dowloading no setting up
and at £10 a month it's not dear.Am I missing something other than
offline facility and killfile??? I always thought that the
disadvantage of OE was that mail is accepted for transfer from your e
mail account so therefore spammers know you exist. Sorry to interrupt
but I am an occasional poster. Cheers Ken

Not if you use a doctored account for usenet like I do. Unfortunately I
cottoned on to this trick only after my adress had been harvested, but
hopefully my doctored account keeps the spammers at bay.

[Franz Heymann]

Borage (Off Topic - Top Posting discussion)
 

"Franz Heymann" wrote in message
...

"Alan Gabriel" wrote in message
...

"Franz Heymann" wrote in message
...
snip
Somewhere there must be a set of rules for this newsgroup. In those
rules
the suggestions for good posting might be listed. That certainly is
so
in
the case of another ng in which I participate. Moreover, the rules of
that
ng are reposted approximately once monthly.



You can check out the "official" netiquette recommendations at
http://www.dtcc.edu/cs/rfc1855.html

3.1.3 NetNews Guidelines covers news group posting.

I would love to see that, but the page appears to be unavailable.



I checked the URL before posting and it resolved OK for me.

--
Regards,
Alan.

Preserve wildlife - Pickle a SQUIRREL to reply.

Borage (Off Topic - Top Posting discussion)
 

Personally, when I read the NG's I would prefer top postings, as I already
know the question, I find it irritating having to trawl throught the
question again to find the reply. I realise it can get complicated when
answers digress from the original question ( as this reply has, in
spectacular fashion. Poor Mike Read only got a couple of replies before the
thread went barmy!)

Mike's original question----

I noticed another allotment always has borage and decided to plant
some, but I now note its an annual. Does it self seed?
--
Mike Reid

Arthur's reply----

Yes - copiously.

- Arthur

Nick Maclaren's reply---

Only if it likes the conditions - it doesn't establish itself
with me.

Now, let's see if we get another infernal top poster, and can turn
this thread into something totally incomprehensible.

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.



Regards Jeff, oh sorry Mike, I can't help you with your question.

Borage (Off Topic - Top Posting discussion)
 

"Alan Gabriel" wrote in message
...

"Franz Heymann" wrote in message
...

"Alan Gabriel" wrote in
message
...

"Franz Heymann" wrote in message
...
snip
Somewhere there must be a set of rules for this newsgroup. In those
rules
the suggestions for good posting might be listed. That certainly is
so
in
the case of another ng in which I participate. Moreover, the rules
of
that
ng are reposted approximately once monthly.



You can check out the "official" netiquette recommendations at
http://www.dtcc.edu/cs/rfc1855.html

3.1.3 NetNews Guidelines covers news group posting.

I would love to see that, but the page appears to be unavailable.



I checked the URL before posting and it resolved OK for me.

Perseverance pays. Today it worked for me too. Thanks for the ULR. It is
very much worth reading.

[Franz Heymann]

Borage (Off Topic - Top Posting discussion)
 

Following up to Jeff Coles

Poor Mike Read only got a couple of replies before the
thread went barmy!)

Its OK, i'm enjoying the same old top/bottom debate, just with
different people :-)
I shall put some borage seed in next spring and assume it will self
seed the way it appears to have done on a neighbouring allotment,
perhaps one day I will get a chance to ask the owner. It slighlty
amazes me that there are several other allotmenters I have only ever
seen once or twice even though I go all different times.
--
Mike Reid
"Art is the lie that reveals the truth" P.Picasso
UK walking "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" (see web for email)
Spain,cuisines and walking "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk"

Borage (Off Topic - Top Posting discussion)
 

In article , The Reid
writes
Following up to Jeff Coles

Poor Mike Read only got a couple of replies before the
thread went barmy!)

Its OK, i'm enjoying the same old top/bottom debate, just with
different people :-)
I shall put some borage seed in next spring and assume it will self
seed the way it appears to have done on a neighbouring allotment,
perhaps one day I will get a chance to ask the owner. It slighlty
amazes me that there are several other allotmenters I have only ever
seen once or twice even though I go all different times.

Hi

I'm not top-posting because you should be able to see my response with
no probs! We had borage on our allotment some years ago, which I
planted from seed, and it grew to over 5ft high, had absolutely masses
of flowers and was covered in bees! It also self-seeded along with the
nasturtiums and a large part of the allotment turned into a field of
nasturtiums with borage!! I've grown some borage in large pots this
year, just stuffed a few seeds in and they all germinated and are now
about 2-3ft high and full of lovely flowers, so easy to grow and such
spectactular plants, very good value. I didn't plant them until late
June or early July (can't quite remember now) and took a chance, which
worked as we've had a lot of hot weather I suppose. I planted Empress
of India nasturtiums around them (dark red) but they haven't flowered
yet although they have grown well enough, so I live in hope!

Lynda

Borage (Off Topic - Top Posting discussion)
 

The message
from The Reid contains these words:

Following up to Jeff Coles

Poor Mike Read only got a couple of replies before the
thread went barmy!)

Its OK, i'm enjoying the same old top/bottom debate, just with
different people :-)
I shall put some borage seed in next spring and assume it will self
seed the way it appears to have done on a neighbouring allotment,
perhaps one day I will get a chance to ask the owner. It slighlty
amazes me that there are several other allotmenters I have only ever
seen once or twice even though I go all different times.

Perhaps they go all different times too?

Talking of self-set seeds, I started turning some of the lawn in the
pocket-handkerchief of my front garden into a bed. Some of the seeds
which have germinated there are to be expected: grasses, spurges,
dandelions, thistles, violas, etc, but some plants surprise me.

Nicotinia - I would not have expected the seeds to have survived the
winter, but they almost form a carpet.
Foxgloves - dunno where the nearest plant is
Lobelia, but no alyssum.
Last, but by no means least, a groundnut.

Actually, the last one doesn't surprise me too much: assuming the actual
peanut to be hardy, about six feet away from where it was growing I put
out a net of nuts for the birds when it was cold, and kept it topped-up.

--
Rusty http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/tqt.htm
horrid·squeak snailything zetnet·co·uk excange d.p. with p to reply.

Please elaborate
 

Could someone elaborate on the following quote in simple language for me as I seem to be making all the classic mistakes. I appreciated advice on netiquette as am new to newsgroups. Am ex-hotmail, now uko2 and am not currently beseiged.

"Not if you use a doctored account for usenet like I do. Unfortunately I
cottoned on to this trick only after my adress had been harvested, but
hopefully my doctored account keeps the spammers at bay.

[Franz Heymann]"

Borage (Off Topic - Top Posting discussion)
 

The message 3fcea991630c1885209910a206cd3f1a@TeraNews
from hrafndot contains these words:

Could someone elaborate on the following quote in simple language for me
as I seem to be making all the classic mistakes. I appreciated advice
on netiquette as am new to newsgroups. Am ex-hotmail, now uko2 and am
not currently beseiged.

"Not if you use a doctored account for usenet like I do. Unfortunately
I
cottoned on to this trick only after my adress had been harvested, but
hopefully my doctored account keeps the spammers at bay.

If you hit 'reply by e-mail' or whatever your newsreader says to this
post, it will bounce. If you want to reply, a working address is
provided at the bottom of my posts, as required by AUP*

You can use various filters too

* Accepted User Policy

Borage (Off Topic - Top Posting discussion)
 

The message
from Rusty Hinge contains these words:

If you hit 'reply by e-mail' or whatever your newsreader says to this
post, it will bounce. If you want to reply, a working address is
provided at the bottom of my posts, as required by AUP*

You can use various filters too

* Accepted User Policy

Sorry, forgot about this one: unplugged everything because of an
approaching flashtbang weathery thing [1] and it got sent when I
reconnected everything.

You should be able to create mailboxes in your newsreader. Unless you
register them with your ISP they won't work. So, you invent an e-mail
address like and post on Usenet using it, the
spambots [2] only pick that address. As yet, they haven't been able to
access the 'Reply To' field in your header without actually opening the
post.

[1] Wot missed. :-(

[2] robots which trawl through newsgroups and harvest addresses

--
Rusty http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/tqt.htm
horrid·squeak snailything zetnet·co·uk excange d.p. with p to reply.

Borage (Off Topic - Top Posting discussion)
 

The message
from Rusty Hinge contains these words:

If you hit 'reply by e-mail' or whatever your newsreader says to this
post, it will bounce. If you want to reply, a working address is
provided at the bottom of my posts, as required by AUP*

You can use various filters too

* Accepted User Policy

Sorry, forgot about this one: unplugged everything because of an
approaching flashtbang weathery thing [1] and it got sent when I
reconnected everything.

You should be able to create mailboxes in your newsreader. Unless you
register them with your ISP they won't work. So, you invent an e-mail
address like and post on Usenet using it, the
spambots [2] only pick that address. As yet, they haven't been able to
access the 'Reply To' field in your header without actually opening the
post.

[1] Wot missed. :-(

[2] robots which trawl through newsgroups and harvest addresses

--
Rusty http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/tqt.htm
horrid·squeak snailything zetnet·co·uk excange d.p. with p to reply.

Borage (Off Topic - Top Posting discussion)
 

The message
from Rusty Hinge contains these words:

If you hit 'reply by e-mail' or whatever your newsreader says to this
post, it will bounce. If you want to reply, a working address is
provided at the bottom of my posts, as required by AUP*

You can use various filters too

* Accepted User Policy

Sorry, forgot about this one: unplugged everything because of an
approaching flashtbang weathery thing [1] and it got sent when I
reconnected everything.

You should be able to create mailboxes in your newsreader. Unless you
register them with your ISP they won't work. So, you invent an e-mail
address like and post on Usenet using it, the
spambots [2] only pick that address. As yet, they haven't been able to
access the 'Reply To' field in your header without actually opening the
post.

[1] Wot missed. :-(

[2] robots which trawl through newsgroups and harvest addresses

--
Rusty http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/tqt.htm
horrid·squeak snailything zetnet·co·uk excange d.p. with p to reply.

Borage (Off Topic - Top Posting discussion)
 

The message
from Rusty Hinge contains these words:

If you hit 'reply by e-mail' or whatever your newsreader says to this
post, it will bounce. If you want to reply, a working address is
provided at the bottom of my posts, as required by AUP*

You can use various filters too

* Accepted User Policy

Sorry, forgot about this one: unplugged everything because of an
approaching flashtbang weathery thing [1] and it got sent when I
reconnected everything.

You should be able to create mailboxes in your newsreader. Unless you
register them with your ISP they won't work. So, you invent an e-mail
address like and post on Usenet using it, the
spambots [2] only pick that address. As yet, they haven't been able to
access the 'Reply To' field in your header without actually opening the
post.

[1] Wot missed. :-(

[2] robots which trawl through newsgroups and harvest addresses

--
Rusty http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/tqt.htm
horrid·squeak snailything zetnet·co·uk excange d.p. with p to reply.

Borage (Off Topic - Top Posting discussion)
 

The message
from Rusty Hinge contains these words:

If you hit 'reply by e-mail' or whatever your newsreader says to this
post, it will bounce. If you want to reply, a working address is
provided at the bottom of my posts, as required by AUP*

You can use various filters too

* Accepted User Policy

Sorry, forgot about this one: unplugged everything because of an
approaching flashtbang weathery thing [1] and it got sent when I
reconnected everything.

You should be able to create mailboxes in your newsreader. Unless you
register them with your ISP they won't work. So, you invent an e-mail
address like and post on Usenet using it, the
spambots [2] only pick that address. As yet, they haven't been able to
access the 'Reply To' field in your header without actually opening the
post.

[1] Wot missed. :-(

[2] robots which trawl through newsgroups and harvest addresses

--
Rusty http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/tqt.htm
horrid·squeak snailything zetnet·co·uk excange d.p. with p to reply.