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What is Organic? (when applied to gardening)
Franz Heymann wrote:
http://www.soilassociation.org/web/s...isorganic.html Thats the current UK legal definition at the URL given. This is the third time we have been steered to that URL. Sorry, I cannot find a definition of the term "organic" as applied to gardening in it. Perhaps I am stupid. I would appreciate it if someone would either extract the definition from that URL and post it here, or let us know in which section of the document the definition is stated. Other laws apply in other countries..! Then that would prove quite indisputably that there is no such thing as a scientific definition of the term "organic" as applied to gardening. ? Its a long and tiring debate esp at this time of night;-) Individual definitions may vary.. Personally I think it changes as we learn more about the world around us and ourselves. That is quite obvious. So what is the scientifically accepted definition? And it depends on how far back you take it.. There either is, or there is not a definition of the term which is valid today. What is this definition? Is the manure you sourced 'organic' if the horses have been treated antibiotics and it therefore contains traces? Probably not but its still allowed as an organic fertiliser. How can black plastic be organic when its a man made substance sourced from petroleum industry.. These and many more questions you can ponder;-)) Is bordeaux mixture organic? No but its allowed as a final resort measure. So is it all just a set of variably interpreted conventions and procedures? As is sodium bicarb. BUT in this case its merely being used as a disinfectant.. NOT as an orgnic control;-) Is its use an organic process or is it not? If I can use Sodium Bicarbonate in gardening, can I use Calcium Phosphate? I suspect that Citrox may be useable as a domestic 'organic' control. Though possibly not as a commercial one. So is its use an organic procedure or not? And which other chemicals might I use as a domestic organic control? Actually I would prefer it that the new term "domestic organic control" is not introduced until there is some more certainty about the definitino of plain "organic". If in doubt ask the HDRA and or the soil association. You may not get the answer you want.. Since I doubt if anyone will actually provide an answer to my problem, I propose to cease asking questions in this thread after my present session on the computer. Hi Franz.. You're probably being quite wise... Ask 1000 people and you'll get 1000 answers.. I'm not sure there is a 'scientific' definition 'as applied to gardening'. Science demands black and white.. As far as organic is concerned there are too many degrees and shades of grey invovled. Given the human element involved (after all its a 'manmade' term and system) you can hardly apply the same rigour as say, the laws of physics etc.. I can't answer your Q... I can only tell you how I interpret what believe I know. To me organic is, very roughly the following.. My interpretation of the laws and guidelines set down by the soil association and HDRA I have a some reservations even about these laws, insomuch that produce can be imported 1000's of miles but still be labelled organic. But that brings in the whole 'food miles' thing, which isn't covered by the 'terms' of orgnic.. Likewise you have systems such as permaculture and biodynamics. These are in essence 'organic' (in fact the german biodynamic label Demeter, is only recognised as 'organic' here, because it merely reaches the UK's organic standards.) but, have additional features that are not organic such as the inclusion of certain substances that are not 'harmful' but are not covered by organic legislation. Now this probably doesn't answer your Q. but http://www.defra.gov.uk/farm/organic/ may help.. this is however merely the legal 'commercial' definition.. I'm not sure that a purely scientific one exists as applied to gardening. The Dictionary gives this: Cambridge Dictionaries Online - Cambridge University Press http://dictionary.cambridge.org/defi...D&desc=organic Saturday, November 1, 2003 Definition organic (NO CHEMICALS) [Show phonetics] adjective not using artificial chemicals in the growing of plants and animals for food and other products: organic food/fruit/farms/farmers The HDRA's guidelines (which is generally applied to non commercial Horticulturalists/gardeners) I've quated below in part (sorry too much effort to quote whole lot now it would make a very lengthy post.) Finnaly.. Try 'asking' google and see how many different answers you get;-) / Jim HDRA's Organic CHarter http://www.hdra.org.uk/guidelines/index.htm Saturday, November 1, 2003 The organic approach to gardening and farming recognises that the whole environment in which plants grow is much more than the sum of its individual parts, and that all living things are inter-related and inter-dependent. Organic growing involves Treating the soil and growing environment as a resource to be husbanded for future generations, rather than mined for short term gain. Providing plants with a balanced food supply by feeding the many soil living creatures that live with composts, manures and other organic materials. Choosing renewable resources, thereby creating a sustainable future. Reducing pollution of the environment, by recycling garden, household and other wastes, rather than dumping or burning them. Combating pests and diseases without using pesticides that may prove harmful to human health and that of domestic and wild animals. Encouraging and protecting wildlife, by creating suitable habitats and by minimizing use of harmful pesticides. Creating a safe and pleasant environment in which to work and play. Moving with the times - taking new scientific discoveries and ideas into account, as well as the best traditional knowledge. Using good horticultural practices. Recognising the importance of genetic diversity and hence the preservation of threatened plant varieties. The whole garden - flowers, trees, shrubs and lawns, as well as vegetables, fruit and herbs. -------------------- HDRA's Organic Charter http://www.hdra.org.uk/members/contents.htm Saturday, November 1, 2003 Contents of these guidelines Organic Gardening - HDRA view HDRA's Organic Charter Soil Management •Manures and waste plant materials •Manure and composts management and application •Fertilisers and liquid feeds Rotation Pest and disease management •Wood preservatives in the garden Weed control and ground clearance •Weed control in lawns Planting material, growing media and container growing •Sowing and planting material •Growing media •Growing in containers Conservation and the environment Footnotes |
#2
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What is Organic? (when applied to gardening)
"Jim W" wrote in message news:1g3qo53.a5xj7p9fj2f6N%00senetnospamtodayta@ma cunlimited.net... Franz Heymann wrote: http://www.soilassociation.org/web/s...isorganic.html Thats the current UK legal definition at the URL given. This is the third time we have been steered to that URL. Sorry, I cannot find a definition of the term "organic" as applied to gardening in it. Perhaps I am stupid. I would appreciate it if someone would either extract the definition from that URL and post it here, or let us know in which section of the document the definition is stated. Other laws apply in other countries..! Then that would prove quite indisputably that there is no such thing as a scientific definition of the term "organic" as applied to gardening. ? Its a long and tiring debate esp at this time of night;-) Individual definitions may vary.. Personally I think it changes as we learn more about the world around us and ourselves. That is quite obvious. So what is the scientifically accepted definition? And it depends on how far back you take it.. There either is, or there is not a definition of the term which is valid today. What is this definition? Is the manure you sourced 'organic' if the horses have been treated antibiotics and it therefore contains traces? Probably not but its still allowed as an organic fertiliser. How can black plastic be organic when its a man made substance sourced from petroleum industry.. These and many more questions you can ponder;-)) Is bordeaux mixture organic? No but its allowed as a final resort measure. So is it all just a set of variably interpreted conventions and procedures? As is sodium bicarb. BUT in this case its merely being used as a disinfectant.. NOT as an orgnic control;-) Is its use an organic process or is it not? If I can use Sodium Bicarbonate in gardening, can I use Calcium Phosphate? I suspect that Citrox may be useable as a domestic 'organic' control. Though possibly not as a commercial one. So is its use an organic procedure or not? And which other chemicals might I use as a domestic organic control? Actually I would prefer it that the new term "domestic organic control" is not introduced until there is some more certainty about the definitino of plain "organic". If in doubt ask the HDRA and or the soil association. You may not get the answer you want.. Since I doubt if anyone will actually provide an answer to my problem, I propose to cease asking questions in this thread after my present session on the computer. Hi Franz.. You're probably being quite wise... Ask 1000 people and you'll get 1000 answers.. I'm not sure there is a 'scientific' definition 'as applied to gardening'. Science demands black and white.. As far as organic is concerned there are too many degrees and shades of grey invovled. Given the human element involved (after all its a 'manmade' term and system) you can hardly apply the same rigour as say, the laws of physics etc.. I can't answer your Q... I can only tell you how I interpret what believe I know. To me organic is, very roughly the following.. My interpretation of the laws and guidelines set down by the soil association and HDRA I have a some reservations even about these laws, insomuch that produce can be imported 1000's of miles but still be labelled organic. But that brings in the whole 'food miles' thing, which isn't covered by the 'terms' of orgnic.. Likewise you have systems such as permaculture and biodynamics. These are in essence 'organic' (in fact the german biodynamic label Demeter, is only recognised as 'organic' here, because it merely reaches the UK's organic standards.) but, have additional features that are not organic such as the inclusion of certain substances that are not 'harmful' but are not covered by organic legislation. So iit is actually just a can of worms. Now this probably doesn't answer your Q. but http://www.defra.gov.uk/farm/organic/ may help.. this is however merely the legal 'commercial' definition.. I'm not sure that a purely scientific one exists as applied to gardening. The Dictionary gives this: Cambridge Dictionaries Online - Cambridge University Press http://dictionary.cambridge.org/defi...D&desc=organic Saturday, November 1, 2003 Definition organic (NO CHEMICALS) [Show phonetics] adjective not using artificial chemicals in the growing of plants and animals for food and other products: organic food/fruit/farms/farmers The HDRA's guidelines (which is generally applied to non commercial Horticulturalists/gardeners) I've quated below in part (sorry too much effort to quote whole lot now it would make a very lengthy post.) Finnaly.. Try 'asking' google and see how many different answers you get;-) / Jim HDRA's Organic CHarter http://www.hdra.org.uk/guidelines/index.htm Saturday, November 1, 2003 The organic approach to gardening and farming recognises that the whole environment in which plants grow is much more than the sum of its individual parts, and that all living things are inter-related and inter-dependent. Organic growing involves Treating the soil and growing environment as a resource to be husbanded for future generations, rather than mined for short term gain. Providing plants with a balanced food supply by feeding the many soil living creatures that live with composts, manures and other organic materials. Choosing renewable resources, thereby creating a sustainable future. Reducing pollution of the environment, by recycling garden, household and other wastes, rather than dumping or burning them. Combating pests and diseases without using pesticides that may prove harmful to human health and that of domestic and wild animals. Encouraging and protecting wildlife, by creating suitable habitats and by minimizing use of harmful pesticides. Creating a safe and pleasant environment in which to work and play. Moving with the times - taking new scientific discoveries and ideas into account, as well as the best traditional knowledge. Using good horticultural practices. Recognising the importance of genetic diversity and hence the preservation of threatened plant varieties. The whole garden - flowers, trees, shrubs and lawns, as well as vegetables, fruit and herbs. -------------------- HDRA's Organic Charter http://www.hdra.org.uk/members/contents.htm Saturday, November 1, 2003 Contents of these guidelines Organic Gardening - HDRA view HDRA's Organic Charter Soil Management .Manures and waste plant materials .Manure and composts management and application .Fertilisers and liquid feeds Rotation Pest and disease management .Wood preservatives in the garden Weed control and ground clearance .Weed control in lawns Planting material, growing media and container growing .Sowing and planting material .Growing media .Growing in containers Conservation and the environment Footnotes Thank you for the quote. I was aware of the material mentioned there. It covers gardening now and in the past. It does not spell out the definition by which we would recognise unambiguously how to make a decision inb the future when confronted with a problem like shall we, or shall we not do such and such. Frankly, I don't think this discussion is actually getting anywhere and I am going to unwind myself from it from now on. Franz |
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