Franz Heymann wrote:

http://www.soilassociation.org/web/s...isorganic.html


Thats the current UK legal definition at the URL given.

This is the third time we have been steered to that URL. Sorry, I cannot
find a definition of the term "organic" as applied to gardening in it.
Perhaps I am stupid. I would appreciate it if someone would either extract
the definition from that URL and post it here, or let us know in which
section of the document the definition is stated.

Other laws
apply in other countries..!

Then that would prove quite indisputably that there is no such thing as a
scientific definition of the term "organic" as applied to gardening.

? Its a long and tiring debate esp at this
time of night;-)

Individual definitions may vary.. Personally I think it changes as we
learn more about the world around us and ourselves.

That is quite obvious.
So what is the scientifically accepted definition?

And it depends on how far back you take it..

There either is, or there is not a definition of the term which is valid
today. What is this definition?

Is the manure you sourced
'organic' if the horses have been treated antibiotics and it therefore
contains traces? Probably not but its still allowed as an organic
fertiliser. How can black plastic be organic when its a man made
substance sourced from petroleum industry.. These and many more
questions you can ponder;-))
Is bordeaux mixture organic? No but its allowed as a final resort
measure.

So is it all just a set of variably interpreted conventions and procedures?

As is sodium bicarb. BUT in this case its merely being used as a
disinfectant.. NOT as an orgnic control;-)

Is its use an organic process or is it not?
If I can use Sodium Bicarbonate in gardening, can I use Calcium Phosphate?

I suspect that Citrox may be useable as a domestic 'organic' control.
Though possibly not as a commercial one.

So is its use an organic procedure or not? And which other chemicals might I
use as a domestic organic control?
Actually I would prefer it that the new term "domestic organic control" is
not introduced until there is some more certainty about the definitino of
plain "organic".

If in doubt ask the HDRA and or the soil association. You may not get
the answer you want..

Since I doubt if anyone will actually provide an answer to my problem, I
propose to cease asking questions in this thread after my present session on
the computer.

Hi Franz.. You're probably being quite wise... Ask 1000 people and
you'll get 1000 answers.. I'm not sure there is a 'scientific'
definition 'as applied to gardening'. Science demands black and white..
As far as organic is concerned there are too many degrees and shades of
grey invovled. Given the human element involved (after all its a
'manmade' term and system) you can hardly apply the same rigour as say,
the laws of physics etc..

I can't answer your Q... I can only tell you how I interpret what
believe I know. To me organic is, very roughly the following..

My interpretation of the laws and guidelines set down by the soil
association and HDRA
I have a some reservations even about these laws, insomuch that produce
can be imported 1000's of miles but still be labelled organic. But that
brings in the whole 'food miles' thing, which isn't covered by the
'terms' of orgnic..

Likewise you have systems such as permaculture and biodynamics. These
are in essence 'organic' (in fact the german biodynamic label Demeter,
is only recognised as 'organic' here, because it merely reaches the UK's
organic standards.) but, have additional features that are not organic
such as the inclusion of certain substances that are not 'harmful' but
are not covered by organic legislation.


Now this probably doesn't answer your Q. but
http://www.defra.gov.uk/farm/organic/ may help..

this is however merely the legal 'commercial' definition.. I'm not sure
that a purely scientific one exists as applied to gardening.

The Dictionary gives this:

Cambridge Dictionaries Online - Cambridge University Press
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/defi...D&desc=organic
Saturday, November 1, 2003

Definition organic (NO CHEMICALS) [Show phonetics] adjective not using
artificial chemicals in the growing of plants and animals for food and
other products: organic food/fruit/farms/farmers

The HDRA's guidelines (which is generally applied to non commercial
Horticulturalists/gardeners) I've quated below in part (sorry too much
effort to quote whole lot now it would make a very lengthy post.)


Finnaly.. Try 'asking' google and see how many different answers you
get;-)

/
Jim


HDRA's Organic CHarter
http://www.hdra.org.uk/guidelines/index.htm
Saturday, November 1, 2003

The organic approach to gardening and farming recognises that the whole
environment in which plants grow is much more than the sum of its
individual parts, and that all living things are inter-related and
inter-dependent.
Organic growing involves Treating the soil and growing
environment as a resource to be husbanded for future generations, rather
than mined for short term gain. Providing plants with a balanced
food supply by feeding the many soil living creatures that live with
composts, manures and other organic materials. Choosing
renewable resources, thereby creating a sustainable future. Reducing
pollution of the environment, by recycling garden, household and other
wastes, rather than dumping or burning them. Combating pests and
diseases without using pesticides that may prove harmful to human health
and that of domestic and wild animals. Encouraging and
protecting wildlife, by creating suitable habitats and by minimizing use
of harmful pesticides. Creating a safe and pleasant environment
in which to work and play.
Moving with the times - taking new scientific discoveries and
ideas into account, as well as the best traditional knowledge.
Using good horticultural practices. Recognising the importance of
genetic diversity and hence the preservation of threatened plant
varieties. The whole garden - flowers, trees, shrubs and lawns, as
well as vegetables, fruit and herbs.

--------------------
HDRA's Organic Charter
http://www.hdra.org.uk/members/contents.htm
Saturday, November 1, 2003

Contents of these guidelines
Organic Gardening - HDRA view
HDRA's Organic Charter
Soil Management •Manures and waste plant materials •Manure and composts
management and application •Fertilisers and liquid feeds
Rotation
Pest and disease management •Wood preservatives in the garden
Weed control and ground clearance •Weed control in lawns
Planting material, growing media and container growing •Sowing and
planting material •Growing media •Growing in containers
Conservation and the environment
Footnotes

"Jim W" wrote in message
news:1g3qo53.a5xj7p9fj2f6N%00senetnospamtodayta@ma cunlimited.net...
Franz Heymann wrote:


http://www.soilassociation.org/web/s...isorganic.html


Thats the current UK legal definition at the URL given.

This is the third time we have been steered to that URL. Sorry, I
cannot
find a definition of the term "organic" as applied to gardening in it.
Perhaps I am stupid. I would appreciate it if someone would either
extract
the definition from that URL and post it here, or let us know in which
section of the document the definition is stated.

Other laws
apply in other countries..!

Then that would prove quite indisputably that there is no such thing as
a
scientific definition of the term "organic" as applied to gardening.

? Its a long and tiring debate esp at this
time of night;-)

Individual definitions may vary.. Personally I think it changes as we
learn more about the world around us and ourselves.

That is quite obvious.
So what is the scientifically accepted definition?

And it depends on how far back you take it..

There either is, or there is not a definition of the term which is valid
today. What is this definition?

Is the manure you sourced
'organic' if the horses have been treated antibiotics and it therefore
contains traces? Probably not but its still allowed as an organic
fertiliser. How can black plastic be organic when its a man made
substance sourced from petroleum industry.. These and many more
questions you can ponder;-))
Is bordeaux mixture organic? No but its allowed as a final resort
measure.

So is it all just a set of variably interpreted conventions and
procedures?

As is sodium bicarb. BUT in this case its merely being used as a
disinfectant.. NOT as an orgnic control;-)

Is its use an organic process or is it not?
If I can use Sodium Bicarbonate in gardening, can I use Calcium
Phosphate?

I suspect that Citrox may be useable as a domestic 'organic' control.
Though possibly not as a commercial one.

So is its use an organic procedure or not? And which other chemicals
might I
use as a domestic organic control?
Actually I would prefer it that the new term "domestic organic control"
is
not introduced until there is some more certainty about the definitino
of
plain "organic".

If in doubt ask the HDRA and or the soil association. You may not get
the answer you want..

Since I doubt if anyone will actually provide an answer to my problem, I
propose to cease asking questions in this thread after my present
session on
the computer.

Hi Franz.. You're probably being quite wise... Ask 1000 people and
you'll get 1000 answers.. I'm not sure there is a 'scientific'
definition 'as applied to gardening'. Science demands black and white..
As far as organic is concerned there are too many degrees and shades of
grey invovled. Given the human element involved (after all its a
'manmade' term and system) you can hardly apply the same rigour as say,
the laws of physics etc..

I can't answer your Q... I can only tell you how I interpret what
believe I know. To me organic is, very roughly the following..

My interpretation of the laws and guidelines set down by the soil
association and HDRA
I have a some reservations even about these laws, insomuch that produce
can be imported 1000's of miles but still be labelled organic. But that
brings in the whole 'food miles' thing, which isn't covered by the
'terms' of orgnic..

Likewise you have systems such as permaculture and biodynamics. These
are in essence 'organic' (in fact the german biodynamic label Demeter,
is only recognised as 'organic' here, because it merely reaches the UK's
organic standards.) but, have additional features that are not organic
such as the inclusion of certain substances that are not 'harmful' but
are not covered by organic legislation.

So iit is actually just a can of worms.

Now this probably doesn't answer your Q. but
http://www.defra.gov.uk/farm/organic/ may help..

this is however merely the legal 'commercial' definition.. I'm not sure
that a purely scientific one exists as applied to gardening.

The Dictionary gives this:

Cambridge Dictionaries Online - Cambridge University Press

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/defi...D&desc=organic
Saturday, November 1, 2003

Definition organic (NO CHEMICALS) [Show phonetics] adjective not using
artificial chemicals in the growing of plants and animals for food and
other products: organic food/fruit/farms/farmers

The HDRA's guidelines (which is generally applied to non commercial
Horticulturalists/gardeners) I've quated below in part (sorry too much
effort to quote whole lot now it would make a very lengthy post.)


Finnaly.. Try 'asking' google and see how many different answers you
get;-)

/
Jim


HDRA's Organic CHarter
http://www.hdra.org.uk/guidelines/index.htm
Saturday, November 1, 2003

The organic approach to gardening and farming recognises that the whole
environment in which plants grow is much more than the sum of its
individual parts, and that all living things are inter-related and
inter-dependent.
Organic growing involves Treating the soil and growing
environment as a resource to be husbanded for future generations, rather
than mined for short term gain. Providing plants with a balanced
food supply by feeding the many soil living creatures that live with
composts, manures and other organic materials. Choosing
renewable resources, thereby creating a sustainable future. Reducing
pollution of the environment, by recycling garden, household and other
wastes, rather than dumping or burning them. Combating pests and
diseases without using pesticides that may prove harmful to human health
and that of domestic and wild animals. Encouraging and
protecting wildlife, by creating suitable habitats and by minimizing use
of harmful pesticides. Creating a safe and pleasant environment
in which to work and play.
Moving with the times - taking new scientific discoveries and
ideas into account, as well as the best traditional knowledge.
Using good horticultural practices. Recognising the importance of
genetic diversity and hence the preservation of threatened plant
varieties. The whole garden - flowers, trees, shrubs and lawns, as
well as vegetables, fruit and herbs.

--------------------
HDRA's Organic Charter
http://www.hdra.org.uk/members/contents.htm
Saturday, November 1, 2003

Contents of these guidelines
Organic Gardening - HDRA view
HDRA's Organic Charter
Soil Management .Manures and waste plant materials .Manure and composts
management and application .Fertilisers and liquid feeds
Rotation
Pest and disease management .Wood preservatives in the garden
Weed control and ground clearance .Weed control in lawns
Planting material, growing media and container growing .Sowing and
planting material .Growing media .Growing in containers
Conservation and the environment
Footnotes

Thank you for the quote. I was aware of the material mentioned there.
It covers gardening now and in the past. It does not spell out the
definition by which we would recognise unambiguously how to make a decision
inb the future when confronted with a problem like shall we, or shall we not
do such and such.

Frankly, I don't think this discussion is actually getting anywhere and I am
going to unwind myself from it from now on.

Franz