More berries mean a hard winter - old wives tale?
In article , Sacha writes Malcolm11/4/04 3:53 @inda al.demon.co.uk In article , Jaques d'Alltrades writes The message from Malcolm contains these words: Much more likely that late frosts in the spring didn't kill a lot of the blooms or retard activity of pollinating insects. But they are just secondary factors. The plant has to have been able to produce the blooms in the first place, i.e. from its reserves of energy, before there is anything for frosts or insects to affect. Not so. When a plant/tree/shrub is badly stressed and 'thinks' it's dying, it often produces an abundance of bloom. Interesting. How does it achieve this and have you seen examples? Yes. Oak trees during the 1976 drought produced masses more acorns than usual; our Eucryphia amazed us by blooming profusely in January. We wondered if it was too early or too late - wrong on both counts. It was dead a couple of months later. The abundance of flower/fruits is to ensure survival of the species. Err, I'm not sure I follow you. The acorns produced during the 1976 drought were the result of flowers produced that spring, before the drought started, which in turn were the result of the oaks having sufficient energy reserves laid down in summer/autumn 1975 to produce them. Surely the fact that there were still masses of acorns despite the drought is evidence that the oaks were coping with the conditions rather well? If they hadn't been coping, I would have expected them to have shed the acorns long before they reached maturity. our Eucryphia amazed us by blooming profusely in January. We wondered if it was too early or too late - wrong on both counts. It was dead a couple of months later. The abundance of flower/fruits is to ensure survival of the species. I assume you mean January 1977. In which case, could it not have been that, having got its seasons in a muddle, the plant died within a couple of months *because* it diverted its energies into flower production at the wrong time, not that it did so because it "knew" it was dying? You will often see recommendations to keep plants in pots or situations where roots are restricted, for example. This is because it causes them to fruit or flower better. A lot of people recommend such treatment for fig trees, for example. That's not quite the same, though, is it? We were discussing the production of flowers and fruit by wild-living trees, shrubs, etc., not the artificial conditions forced on them by gardeners who have discovered that if you restrict root growth you also restrict overall growth. -- Malcolm |
More berries mean a hard winter - old wives tale?
In article , Sacha writes Malcolm13/4/04 10:28 +oGpK7eAFw$9@inda al.demon.co.uk In article , Jaques d'Alltrades writes The message from Malcolm contains these words: In article , Jaques d'Alltrades writes snip Not so. When a plant/tree/shrub is badly stressed and 'thinks' it's dying, it often produces an abundance of bloom. Interesting. How does it achieve this and have you seen examples? Well known phenomenon. Which is hardly an answer to my questions :-( I posted an answer upthread, drawn from personal experience. To which I have just responded. I was now asking Rusty. I'm genuinely interested though as yet unconvinced. -- Malcolm |
More berries mean a hard winter - old wives tale?
In article , Malcolm
writes You will often see recommendations to keep plants in pots or situations where roots are restricted, for example. This is because it causes them to fruit or flower better. A lot of people recommend such treatment for fig trees, for example. That's not quite the same, though, is it? We were discussing the production of flowers and fruit by wild-living trees, shrubs, etc., not the artificial conditions forced on them by gardeners who have discovered that if you restrict root growth you also restrict overall growth. I think the point with the fig is that in the wild it may grow in fairly scruffy ground - stony, dry, perhaps not much root run - in which case it produces quite a lot of fruit, or it may grow in fertile ground, in which case it puts on a lot of lush leafy growth and not so much fruit. Nasturtiums are similar - in fertile ground they produce masses of leafy growth and fewer flowers - it's not just that the flowers are hidden by the bigger leaves, there are fewer flowers than if they are grown on dry ground. Lettuces and radishes will grow vegetatively while there is plenty of water around, but water limitation encourages them to bolt - ie to produce flowers and seed. Eucharis - a handsome aspidistra-like plant with white daffodil like flowers - accepted method to encourage flowering is to withhold water for a period. These are merely examples, not botanical oddities. It makes sense - quite a heavy investment in flower and seed, so while the ground is good, concentrate on vegetative growth, but if the ground isn't good, invest in flower production, and maybe one of your offspring will find itself in better conditions. And by expressing it this way I'm not implying any conscious decision making process on the plant's behalf! ;-) -- Kay Easton Edward's earthworm page: http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/edward/index.htm |
More berries mean a hard winter - old wives tale?
Malcolm13/4/04 3:28
snip The acorns produced during the 1976 drought were the result of flowers produced that spring, before the drought started, which in turn were the result of the oaks having sufficient energy reserves laid down in summer/autumn 1975 to produce them. Surely the fact that there were still masses of acorns despite the drought is evidence that the oaks were coping with the conditions rather well? If they hadn't been coping, I would have expected them to have shed the acorns long before they reached maturity. Well, all I can say is that in Jersey - which is where I observed these particular trees - the drought lasted from early May to October (following IIRC a dry spring. We often have a drought in Jersey in February) and never before or since have I seen so many acorns on oak trees anywhere. our Eucryphia amazed us by blooming profusely in January. We wondered if it was too early or too late - wrong on both counts. It was dead a couple of months later. The abundance of flower/fruits is to ensure survival of the species. I assume you mean January 1977. I meant January of last year. In which case, could it not have been that, having got its seasons in a muddle, the plant died within a couple of months *because* it diverted its energies into flower production at the wrong time, not that it did so because it "knew" it was dying? No, because it did not die in '97. It died after blooming in January of last year. Ray, who known this garden much longer than I have, said he had never OTOH, following the drought at the end of last summer, our mimosa tree bloomed better than it ever has, thus supporting the 'stress' theory even further. So far, it's still alive! You will often see recommendations to keep plants in pots or situations where roots are restricted, for example. This is because it causes them to fruit or flower better. A lot of people recommend such treatment for fig trees, for example. That's not quite the same, though, is it? We were discussing the production of flowers and fruit by wild-living trees, shrubs, etc., not the artificial conditions forced on them by gardeners who have discovered that if you restrict root growth you also restrict overall growth. Neither the oak trees, the mimosa nor the Eucryphia were restricted in any way. I used the examples above because they mimic natural stress. Several people have commented to us that they have never seen the gorse on Dartmoor in such bloom as it is right now; nor so many primroses in the banks and hedgerows, so many daffodils growing wild etc. etc. and last autumn was abnormally dry and prolonged. Tonight, without mentioning our discussion here, I asked one lady what she put all this down to "oh, the hot weather last year, dear" was her immediate answer. She's 86 and has gardened a bit in her time..... -- Sacha www.hillhousenursery.co.uk South Devon (remove the weeds to email me) |
More berries mean a hard winter - old wives tale?
In article , Sacha writes Malcolm13/4/04 3:28 $eAFw$6@inda al.demon.co.uk snip The acorns produced during the 1976 drought were the result of flowers produced that spring, before the drought started, which in turn were the result of the oaks having sufficient energy reserves laid down in summer/autumn 1975 to produce them. Surely the fact that there were still masses of acorns despite the drought is evidence that the oaks were coping with the conditions rather well? If they hadn't been coping, I would have expected them to have shed the acorns long before they reached maturity. Well, all I can say is that in Jersey - which is where I observed these particular trees - the drought lasted from early May to October (following IIRC a dry spring. We often have a drought in Jersey in February) and never before or since have I seen so many acorns on oak trees anywhere. It was clearly a great seed-setting year. our Eucryphia amazed us by blooming profusely in January. We wondered if it was too early or too late - wrong on both counts. It was dead a couple of months later. The abundance of flower/fruits is to ensure survival of the species. I assume you mean January 1977. I meant January of last year. Ah, I thought you were still discussing 1976! In which case, could it not have been that, having got its seasons in a muddle, the plant died within a couple of months *because* it diverted its energies into flower production at the wrong time, not that it did so because it "knew" it was dying? No, because it did not die in '97. It died after blooming in January of last year. Ray, who known this garden much longer than I have, said he had never I'm now completely lost. What has '97 got to do with anything????? OTOH, following the drought at the end of last summer, our mimosa tree bloomed better than it ever has, thus supporting the 'stress' theory even further. So far, it's still alive! I'm delighted to hear it. You will often see recommendations to keep plants in pots or situations where roots are restricted, for example. This is because it causes them to fruit or flower better. A lot of people recommend such treatment for fig trees, for example. That's not quite the same, though, is it? We were discussing the production of flowers and fruit by wild-living trees, shrubs, etc., not the artificial conditions forced on them by gardeners who have discovered that if you restrict root growth you also restrict overall growth. Neither the oak trees, the mimosa nor the Eucryphia were restricted in any way. I used the examples above because they mimic natural stress. Several people have commented to us that they have never seen the gorse on Dartmoor in such bloom as it is right now; nor so many primroses in the banks and hedgerows, so many daffodils growing wild etc. etc. and last autumn was abnormally dry and prolonged. Tonight, without mentioning our discussion here, I asked one lady what she put all this down to "oh, the hot weather last year, dear" was her immediate answer. She's 86 and has gardened a bit in her time..... There's nothing wrong with a bit of hot weather when it comes to helping plants grow. -- Malcolm |
More berries mean a hard winter - old wives tale?
The message
from Malcolm contains these words: In article , Sacha writes I posted an answer upthread, drawn from personal experience. To which I have just responded. I was now asking Rusty. I'm genuinely interested though as yet unconvinced. Well, I haven't the time to enter into arguments about it or google for you. It's been well-known and well publicised to my knowledge ever since I began listening to GQT. -- Rusty Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar. http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/ |
More berries mean a hard winter - old wives tale?
Jaques d'Alltrades14/4/04 2:23
The message from Malcolm contains these words: In article , Sacha writes I posted an answer upthread, drawn from personal experience. To which I have just responded. I was now asking Rusty. I'm genuinely interested though as yet unconvinced. Well, I haven't the time to enter into arguments about it or google for you. It's been well-known and well publicised to my knowledge ever since I began listening to GQT. I think this is one of those things that many gardeners 'know' but haven't studied scientifically. However, as I said upthread, if anyone is interested enough to pursue the matter, there are a lot of books on the subject. -- Sacha (remove the weeds to email me) |
More berries mean a hard winter - old wives tale?
In article , Sacha writes: | Jaques d'Alltrades14/4/04 2:23 | | The message | from Malcolm contains these words: | In article , Sacha | writes | | I posted an answer upthread, drawn from personal experience. | | To which I have just responded. I was now asking Rusty. I'm genuinely | interested though as yet unconvinced. | | Well, I haven't the time to enter into arguments about it or google for | you. It's been well-known and well publicised to my knowledge ever since | I began listening to GQT. | | I think this is one of those things that many gardeners 'know' but haven't | studied scientifically. However, as I said upthread, if anyone is | interested enough to pursue the matter, there are a lot of books on the | subject. It has been studied scientifically, and is 'correct', though the phenomenon isn't quite as simple as that and the explanation isn't necessarily that one. I don't have a reference, I am afraid. One other aspect is that plants not under stress often put their energy into growth and, in many plants, rapid growth and flowering are more-or-less exclusive. You can see this with spinach, fat hen and lots of such plants, where a period of stress will stop their rapid growth and they will then flower (irrespective of size!) But exactly what the interactions are I don't know, and I am not sure that botanists do, either. What is certain is that the gardeners' rule is effectively correct - stress and flowering are often linked. Note that, as with many such effects, this applies to plants adapted to 'seasonal' climates (including the savanna); those adapted to the humid tropics are more likely to sulk if stressed. Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
More berries mean a hard winter - old wives tale?
On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 03:55:47 +0100, Jaques d'Alltrades
wrote: Come into the potting shed and park yourself on that old sack of hardened cement I borrowed from Another Place. Cup of tea? Aaar. I am now able to be a licensed radio ham, so can we call it a shack? wondering about where to hide the ariel now that the lilies have gone Glenys -- "A Newsweek poll said if the election were held today, John Kerry would beat Bush 49 percent to 46 percent. And today, President Bush called Newsweek magazine a threat to world peace." Jay Leno |
More berries mean a hard winter - old wives tale?
On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 03:55:47 +0100, Jaques d'Alltrades
wrote: Come into the potting shed and park yourself on that old sack of hardened cement I borrowed from Another Place. Cup of tea? Aaar. I am now able to be a licensed radio ham, so can we call it a shack? wondering about where to hide the ariel now that the lilies have gone Glenys -- "A Newsweek poll said if the election were held today, John Kerry would beat Bush 49 percent to 46 percent. And today, President Bush called Newsweek magazine a threat to world peace." Jay Leno |
More berries mean a hard winter - old wives tale?
The message
from MissJuggs contains these words: On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 03:55:47 +0100, Jaques d'Alltrades wrote: Come into the potting shed and park yourself on that old sack of hardened cement I borrowed from Another Place. Cup of tea? Aaar. I am now able to be a licensed radio ham, so can we call it a shack? Well, just as long as you leave that jamjar of fossilised paintbrushes, and those tobacco tins of nials and stuff, and the red checky curtings, and all those deckchares inna tangle of legses and canvas, andandandand - well, please don't throw anything away... Now, you can pwt the 28MHz stuff there.......... wondering about where to hide the ariel now that the lilies have gone Molish a feature of it. However, if you're using a stick I wooden grow clematis up it as it hooters yer SWR. 73 -- Rusty Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar. http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/ |
More berries mean a hard winter - old wives tale?
On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 20:55:57 +0100, Jaques d'Alltrades
wrote: Molish a feature of it. However, if you're using a stick I wooden grow clematis up it as it hooters yer SWR. heh ;) Glenys -- "A Newsweek poll said if the election were held today, John Kerry would beat Bush 49 percent to 46 percent. And today, President Bush called Newsweek magazine a threat to world peace." Jay Leno |
More berries mean a hard winter - old wives tale?
On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 03:55:47 +0100, Jaques d'Alltrades
wrote: Come into the potting shed and park yourself on that old sack of hardened cement I borrowed from Another Place. Cup of tea? Aaar. I am now able to be a licensed radio ham, so can we call it a shack? wondering about where to hide the ariel now that the lilies have gone Glenys -- "A Newsweek poll said if the election were held today, John Kerry would beat Bush 49 percent to 46 percent. And today, President Bush called Newsweek magazine a threat to world peace." Jay Leno |
More berries mean a hard winter - old wives tale?
The message
from MissJuggs contains these words: On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 03:55:47 +0100, Jaques d'Alltrades wrote: Come into the potting shed and park yourself on that old sack of hardened cement I borrowed from Another Place. Cup of tea? Aaar. I am now able to be a licensed radio ham, so can we call it a shack? Well, just as long as you leave that jamjar of fossilised paintbrushes, and those tobacco tins of nials and stuff, and the red checky curtings, and all those deckchares inna tangle of legses and canvas, andandandand - well, please don't throw anything away... Now, you can pwt the 28MHz stuff there.......... wondering about where to hide the ariel now that the lilies have gone Molish a feature of it. However, if you're using a stick I wooden grow clematis up it as it hooters yer SWR. 73 -- Rusty Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar. http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/ |
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