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More berries mean a hard winter - old wives tale?
Hi,
there is a theory that extra berries on the shrubs means a hard winter and nature is taking care of all the birds etc. This sounds doubtful if subjected to logical analysis anyway - my 2p theory is that more berries means a good summer, and good summers (lots of high pressure and clear skies) are often followed by hard winters (lots of high pressure and clear skies). Be that as it may: we had loads of berries on the shrubs last year - after a wonderful summer. There are still loads of berries on the shrub by our steps (cotoneaster springs to mind, but that may be the other one). I need to prune this back because it is invading the area of the steps and I do like to go down into the garden :-) However it is still loaded with red berries, and pruning back will invlove throwing away most of these berries. So; are the birds still dependant on last years berries, or will this years growth be feeding them? I know the pigeons are doing well off the buds on our plum trees. As a first stage I have cleared the top layer of growth, exposing the berries underneath. I will watch for a bit in case the birds start stripping these, but I suspect that nature has over provided in this case. Obviously I don't want to remove a valuable resource for the wild life, but how long do they depend on last years berries? TIA Dave R -- |
More berries mean a hard winter - old wives tale?
Hi,
there is a theory that extra berries on the shrubs means a hard winter and nature is taking care of all the birds etc. more likely shrub trying to increase its chances of propagating I should have thought |
More berries mean a hard winter - old wives tale?
Hi,
there is a theory that extra berries on the shrubs means a hard winter and nature is taking care of all the birds etc. more likely shrub trying to increase its chances of propagating I should have thought |
More berries mean a hard winter - old wives tale?
Hi,
there is a theory that extra berries on the shrubs means a hard winter and nature is taking care of all the birds etc. more likely shrub trying to increase its chances of propagating I should have thought |
More berries mean a hard winter - old wives tale?
"Oxymel_of_Squill" wrote in message
news:M%ebc.3747$4N3.2047@newsfe1-win... Hi, there is a theory that extra berries on the shrubs means a hard winter and nature is taking care of all the birds etc. more likely shrub trying to increase its chances of propagating I should have thought Or the cold weather has killed the birds so the berries don't get eaten... -- Martin & Anna Sykes ( Remove x's when replying ) http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~sykesm |
More berries mean a hard winter - old wives tale?
"Oxymel_of_Squill" wrote in message
news:M%ebc.3747$4N3.2047@newsfe1-win... Hi, there is a theory that extra berries on the shrubs means a hard winter and nature is taking care of all the birds etc. more likely shrub trying to increase its chances of propagating I should have thought Or the cold weather has killed the birds so the berries don't get eaten... -- Martin & Anna Sykes ( Remove x's when replying ) http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~sykesm |
More berries mean a hard winter - old wives tale?
Oxymel_of_Squill wrote:
:: Hi, :: :: there is a theory that extra berries on the shrubs means a hard :: winter and nature is taking care of all the birds etc. : : more likely shrub trying to increase its chances of propagating I : should have thought And even though it's a quaint idea.... shrubs haven't got any better forecasters than the met office, or a crystal ball |
More berries mean a hard winter - old wives tale?
In article , David W.E.
Roberts writes Obviously I don't want to remove a valuable resource for the wild life, but how long do they depend on last years berries? otoh - we're now in the breeding season and food requirements are high otoh - fruit feeders have other sources, such as nectar from nipping off buds, and oozing sap from wounds in trees. You could always provide substitutes - raisins and sultanas (blackbirds and starlings appear fond of these), and the last of your stored apples which are beginning to go off. It won't be many more weeks before we're back in the fruit season with the first of the strawberries. IME cotonoeaster and viburnum are a last resort - which is why you still have berries on them now! -- Kay Easton Edward's earthworm page: http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/edward/index.htm |
More berries mean a hard winter - old wives tale?
Oxymel_of_Squill wrote:
:: Hi, :: :: there is a theory that extra berries on the shrubs means a hard :: winter and nature is taking care of all the birds etc. : : more likely shrub trying to increase its chances of propagating I : should have thought And even though it's a quaint idea.... shrubs haven't got any better forecasters than the met office, or a crystal ball |
More berries mean a hard winter - old wives tale?
In article , David W.E.
Roberts writes Obviously I don't want to remove a valuable resource for the wild life, but how long do they depend on last years berries? otoh - we're now in the breeding season and food requirements are high otoh - fruit feeders have other sources, such as nectar from nipping off buds, and oozing sap from wounds in trees. You could always provide substitutes - raisins and sultanas (blackbirds and starlings appear fond of these), and the last of your stored apples which are beginning to go off. It won't be many more weeks before we're back in the fruit season with the first of the strawberries. IME cotonoeaster and viburnum are a last resort - which is why you still have berries on them now! -- Kay Easton Edward's earthworm page: http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/edward/index.htm |
More berries mean a hard winter - old wives tale?
"Robert" wrote in message ... Oxymel_of_Squill wrote: :: Hi, :: :: there is a theory that extra berries on the shrubs means a hard :: winter and nature is taking care of all the birds etc. : : more likely shrub trying to increase its chances of propagating I : should have thought And even though it's a quaint idea.... shrubs haven't got any better forecasters than the met office, or a crystal ball Or else it's all relative... a nice summer always seems to be followed by a horrible winter... but then, I despise winter in all its forms: mild or harsh... they're all cold and miserable. (so why the hell do I choose to live in Winnipeg?!) |
More berries mean a hard winter - old wives tale?
"Robert" wrote in message ... Oxymel_of_Squill wrote: :: Hi, :: :: there is a theory that extra berries on the shrubs means a hard :: winter and nature is taking care of all the birds etc. : : more likely shrub trying to increase its chances of propagating I : should have thought And even though it's a quaint idea.... shrubs haven't got any better forecasters than the met office, or a crystal ball Or else it's all relative... a nice summer always seems to be followed by a horrible winter... but then, I despise winter in all its forms: mild or harsh... they're all cold and miserable. (so why the hell do I choose to live in Winnipeg?!) |
More berries mean a hard winter - old wives tale?
In article , David W.E. Roberts
writes Hi, there is a theory that extra berries on the shrubs means a hard winter and nature is taking care of all the birds etc. This sounds doubtful if subjected to logical analysis anyway - my 2p theory is that more berries means a good summer, and good summers (lots of high pressure and clear skies) are often followed by hard winters (lots of high pressure and clear skies). Be that as it may: we had loads of berries on the shrubs last year - after a wonderful summer. I think that is the reason. We have three large sycamore trees adjoining the garden and I have never seen so many of their germinating seeds before. They are everywhere - growing on the lawn, in the orchard, on the gravel drive, even lodged in the frame of the trailer. I'm going to have to spend a lot of time pulling them up during the next few months. -- Roy Bailey West Berkshire. |
More berries mean a hard winter - old wives tale?
In article , David W.E. Roberts writes Hi, there is a theory that extra berries on the shrubs means a hard winter and nature is taking care of all the birds etc. "Old wives tale" is correct :-) This sounds doubtful if subjected to logical analysis anyway - my 2p theory is that more berries means a good summer, and good summers (lots of high pressure and clear skies) are often followed by hard winters (lots of high pressure and clear skies). Lots of berries at the end of a summer means that in the previous summer/autumn, the plant was able to lay down good reserves of energy with which to produce masses of flowers and then fruit the following year. In the UK at least, there is no correlation between good summers and succeeding, or preceding, hard winters. Indeed, we don't seem to get hard winters any more! Be that as it may: we had loads of berries on the shrubs last year - after a wonderful summer. There are still loads of berries on the shrub by our steps (cotoneaster springs to mind, but that may be the other one). I need to prune this back because it is invading the area of the steps and I do like to go down into the garden :-) However it is still loaded with red berries, and pruning back will invlove throwing away most of these berries. So; are the birds still dependant on last years berries, or will this years growth be feeding them? I know the pigeons are doing well off the buds on our plum trees. Some birds switch to buds in the spring because they are very nutritious when growing. Other birds may still feed on berries, but these may have lost some of their food value through the winter and so be less attractive. As a first stage I have cleared the top layer of growth, exposing the berries underneath. I will watch for a bit in case the birds start stripping these, but I suspect that nature has over provided in this case. Obviously I don't want to remove a valuable resource for the wild life, but how long do they depend on last years berries? That all depends on what other food sources are available. -- Malcolm |
More berries mean a hard winter - old wives tale?
In article , Roy Bailey
writes We have three large sycamore trees adjoining the garden and I have never seen so many of their germinating seeds before. They are everywhere - growing on the lawn, in the orchard, on the gravel drive, even lodged in the frame of the trailer. I'm going to have to spend a lot of time pulling them up during the next few months. I have a similar glut, but mine is of cherry laurel. -- Kay Easton Edward's earthworm page: http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/edward/index.htm |
More berries mean a hard winter - old wives tale?
The message
from Malcolm contains these words: This sounds doubtful if subjected to logical analysis anyway - my 2p theory is that more berries means a good summer, and good summers (lots of high pressure and clear skies) are often followed by hard winters (lots of high pressure and clear skies). Lots of berries at the end of a summer means that in the previous summer/autumn, the plant was able to lay down good reserves of energy with which to produce masses of flowers and then fruit the following year. Much more likely that late frosts in the spring didn't kill a lot of the blooms or retard activity of pollinating insects. In the UK at least, there is no correlation between good summers and succeeding, or preceding, hard winters. Indeed, we don't seem to get hard winters any more! You will always find a correlation of some sort if you look hard enough. -- Rusty Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar. http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/ |
More berries mean a hard winter - old wives tale?
In article , Jaques d'Alltrades writes The message from Malcolm contains these words: This sounds doubtful if subjected to logical analysis anyway - my 2p theory is that more berries means a good summer, and good summers (lots of high pressure and clear skies) are often followed by hard winters (lots of high pressure and clear skies). Lots of berries at the end of a summer means that in the previous summer/autumn, the plant was able to lay down good reserves of energy with which to produce masses of flowers and then fruit the following year. Much more likely that late frosts in the spring didn't kill a lot of the blooms or retard activity of pollinating insects. But they are just secondary factors. The plant has to have been able to produce the blooms in the first place, i.e. from its reserves of energy, before there is anything for frosts or insects to affect. In the UK at least, there is no correlation between good summers and succeeding, or preceding, hard winters. Indeed, we don't seem to get hard winters any more! You will always find a correlation of some sort if you look hard enough. Not ones that are necessarily meaningful. -- Malcolm |
More berries mean a hard winter - old wives tale?
The message
from Malcolm contains these words: Much more likely that late frosts in the spring didn't kill a lot of the blooms or retard activity of pollinating insects. But they are just secondary factors. The plant has to have been able to produce the blooms in the first place, i.e. from its reserves of energy, before there is anything for frosts or insects to affect. Not so. When a plant/tree/shrub is badly stressed and 'thinks' it's dying, it often produces an abundance of bloom. -- Rusty Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar. http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/ |
More berries mean a hard winter - old wives tale?
In article , Jaques d'Alltrades writes The message from Malcolm contains these words: Much more likely that late frosts in the spring didn't kill a lot of the blooms or retard activity of pollinating insects. But they are just secondary factors. The plant has to have been able to produce the blooms in the first place, i.e. from its reserves of energy, before there is anything for frosts or insects to affect. Not so. When a plant/tree/shrub is badly stressed and 'thinks' it's dying, it often produces an abundance of bloom. Interesting. How does it achieve this and have you seen examples? -- Malcolm |
More berries mean a hard winter - old wives tale?
NNTP-Posting-Host: 217.135.4.198
Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news7.svr.pol.co.uk 1081700548 7867 217.135.4.198 (11 Apr 2004 16:22:28 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Apr 2004 16:22:28 GMT X-Complaints-To: User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.6 Path: kermit!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!border1.nntp.as h.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!opentransit.net!n ewsfeed.icl.net!colt.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news .theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: kermit uk.rec.gardening:195979 Malcolm11/4/04 3:53 In article , Jaques d'Alltrades writes The message from Malcolm contains these words: Much more likely that late frosts in the spring didn't kill a lot of the blooms or retard activity of pollinating insects. But they are just secondary factors. The plant has to have been able to produce the blooms in the first place, i.e. from its reserves of energy, before there is anything for frosts or insects to affect. Not so. When a plant/tree/shrub is badly stressed and 'thinks' it's dying, it often produces an abundance of bloom. Interesting. How does it achieve this and have you seen examples? Yes. Oak trees during the 1976 drought produced masses more acorns than usual; our Eucryphia amazed us by blooming profusely in January. We wondered if it was too early or too late - wrong on both counts. It was dead a couple of months later. The abundance of flower/fruits is to ensure survival of the species. You will often see recommendations to keep plants in pots or situations where roots are restricted, for example. This is because it causes them to fruit or flower better. A lot of people recommend such treatment for fig trees, for example. -- Sacha (remove the weeds to email me) |
More berries mean a hard winter - old wives tale?
On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 17:19:38 +0100, Sacha
wrote: A lot of people recommend such treatment for fig trees, for example. Also amaryllis and agapanthus. Glenys Trying to lurk, honest. -- "A Newsweek poll said if the election were held today, John Kerry would beat Bush 49 percent to 46 percent. And today, President Bush called Newsweek magazine a threat to world peace." Jay Leno |
More berries mean a hard winter - old wives tale?
In article , Malcolm
writes In article , Jaques d'Alltrades writes The message from Malcolm contains these words: Much more likely that late frosts in the spring didn't kill a lot of the blooms or retard activity of pollinating insects. But they are just secondary factors. The plant has to have been able to produce the blooms in the first place, i.e. from its reserves of energy, before there is anything for frosts or insects to affect. Not so. When a plant/tree/shrub is badly stressed and 'thinks' it's dying, it often produces an abundance of bloom. Interesting. How does it achieve this and have you seen examples? Radishes going to seed? -- Kay Easton Edward's earthworm page: http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/edward/index.htm |
More berries mean a hard winter - old wives tale?
"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote in message ... The message from Malcolm contains these words: Much more likely that late frosts in the spring didn't kill a lot of the blooms or retard activity of pollinating insects. But they are just secondary factors. The plant has to have been able to produce the blooms in the first place, i.e. from its reserves of energy, before there is anything for frosts or insects to affect. Not so. When a plant/tree/shrub is badly stressed and 'thinks' it's dying, it often produces an abundance of bloom. Why then do we water and feed our plants so assiduously? Why don't we just garden exclusively with plants which give their best only when they are neglected to the point of dying? Franz |
More berries mean a hard winter - old wives tale?
Lines: 25
X-Trace: 1081843443 master.news.zetnet.net 8570 194.247.47.30 Path: kermit!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!newshosting.com !nx02.iad01.newshosting.com!newsfeed.icl.net!newsf eed.fjserv.net!colt.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!easynet-monga!easynet.net!peer.news.zetnet.net!master.news .zetnet.net!n ot-for-mail Xref: kermit uk.rec.gardening:196146 The message from Malcolm contains these words: In article , Jaques d'Alltrades writes The message from Malcolm contains these words: Much more likely that late frosts in the spring didn't kill a lot of the blooms or retard activity of pollinating insects. But they are just secondary factors. The plant has to have been able to produce the blooms in the first place, i.e. from its reserves of energy, before there is anything for frosts or insects to affect. Not so. When a plant/tree/shrub is badly stressed and 'thinks' it's dying, it often produces an abundance of bloom. Interesting. How does it achieve this and have you seen examples? Well known phenomenon. -- Rusty Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar. http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/ |
More berries mean a hard winter - old wives tale?
The message
from MissJuggs contains these words: On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 17:19:38 +0100, Sacha wrote: A lot of people recommend such treatment for fig trees, for example. Also amaryllis and agapanthus. Glenys Trying to lurk, honest. Come into the potting shed and park yourself on that old sack of hardened cement I borrowed from Another Place. Cup of tea? -- Rusty Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar. http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/ |
More berries mean a hard winter - old wives tale?
The message
from MissJuggs contains these words: (sig) "A Newsweek poll said if the election were held today, John Kerry would beat Bush 49 percent to 46 percent. And today, President Bush called Newsweek magazine a threat to world peace." Jay Leno Which as we all know is being sown this spring like there is no tomorrow...... -- Rusty Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar. http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/ |
More berries mean a hard winter - old wives tale?
Lines: 33
X-Trace: 1081843444 master.news.zetnet.net 8570 194.247.47.30 Path: kermit!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!border1.nntp.as h.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!zen.net.uk!dedeki nd.zen.co.uk!peernews.manap.net!194.247.47.118.MIS MATCH!master.news.zetnet.net!not-for-mail Xref: kermit uk.rec.gardening:196149 The message from "Franz Heymann" contains these words: "Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote in message ... The message from Malcolm contains these words: Much more likely that late frosts in the spring didn't kill a lot of the blooms or retard activity of pollinating insects. But they are just secondary factors. The plant has to have been able to produce the blooms in the first place, i.e. from its reserves of energy, before there is anything for frosts or insects to affect. Not so. When a plant/tree/shrub is badly stressed and 'thinks' it's dying, it often produces an abundance of bloom. Why then do we water and feed our plants so assiduously? Why don't we just garden exclusively with plants which give their best only when they are neglected to the point of dying? You might, I couldn't possibly comment on why. But just think - if you stressed everything in your garden beyond its limits, you'd have a new garden each year and an empty bank balance. -- Rusty Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar. http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/ |
More berries mean a hard winter - old wives tale?
In article , Jaques d'Alltrades writes The message from Malcolm contains these words: In article , Jaques d'Alltrades writes The message from Malcolm contains these words: Much more likely that late frosts in the spring didn't kill a lot of the blooms or retard activity of pollinating insects. But they are just secondary factors. The plant has to have been able to produce the blooms in the first place, i.e. from its reserves of energy, before there is anything for frosts or insects to affect. Not so. When a plant/tree/shrub is badly stressed and 'thinks' it's dying, it often produces an abundance of bloom. Interesting. How does it achieve this and have you seen examples? Well known phenomenon. Which is hardly an answer to my questions :-( -- Malcolm |
More berries mean a hard winter - old wives tale?
Malcolm13/4/04 10:28
In article , Jaques d'Alltrades writes The message from Malcolm contains these words: In article , Jaques d'Alltrades writes snip Not so. When a plant/tree/shrub is badly stressed and 'thinks' it's dying, it often produces an abundance of bloom. Interesting. How does it achieve this and have you seen examples? Well known phenomenon. Which is hardly an answer to my questions :-( I posted an answer upthread, drawn from personal experience. -- Sacha (remove the weeds to email me) |
More berries mean a hard winter - old wives tale?
In article , Sacha writes Malcolm11/4/04 3:53 @inda al.demon.co.uk In article , Jaques d'Alltrades writes The message from Malcolm contains these words: Much more likely that late frosts in the spring didn't kill a lot of the blooms or retard activity of pollinating insects. But they are just secondary factors. The plant has to have been able to produce the blooms in the first place, i.e. from its reserves of energy, before there is anything for frosts or insects to affect. Not so. When a plant/tree/shrub is badly stressed and 'thinks' it's dying, it often produces an abundance of bloom. Interesting. How does it achieve this and have you seen examples? Yes. Oak trees during the 1976 drought produced masses more acorns than usual; our Eucryphia amazed us by blooming profusely in January. We wondered if it was too early or too late - wrong on both counts. It was dead a couple of months later. The abundance of flower/fruits is to ensure survival of the species. Err, I'm not sure I follow you. The acorns produced during the 1976 drought were the result of flowers produced that spring, before the drought started, which in turn were the result of the oaks having sufficient energy reserves laid down in summer/autumn 1975 to produce them. Surely the fact that there were still masses of acorns despite the drought is evidence that the oaks were coping with the conditions rather well? If they hadn't been coping, I would have expected them to have shed the acorns long before they reached maturity. our Eucryphia amazed us by blooming profusely in January. We wondered if it was too early or too late - wrong on both counts. It was dead a couple of months later. The abundance of flower/fruits is to ensure survival of the species. I assume you mean January 1977. In which case, could it not have been that, having got its seasons in a muddle, the plant died within a couple of months *because* it diverted its energies into flower production at the wrong time, not that it did so because it "knew" it was dying? You will often see recommendations to keep plants in pots or situations where roots are restricted, for example. This is because it causes them to fruit or flower better. A lot of people recommend such treatment for fig trees, for example. That's not quite the same, though, is it? We were discussing the production of flowers and fruit by wild-living trees, shrubs, etc., not the artificial conditions forced on them by gardeners who have discovered that if you restrict root growth you also restrict overall growth. -- Malcolm |
More berries mean a hard winter - old wives tale?
In article , Sacha writes Malcolm13/4/04 10:28 +oGpK7eAFw$9@inda al.demon.co.uk In article , Jaques d'Alltrades writes The message from Malcolm contains these words: In article , Jaques d'Alltrades writes snip Not so. When a plant/tree/shrub is badly stressed and 'thinks' it's dying, it often produces an abundance of bloom. Interesting. How does it achieve this and have you seen examples? Well known phenomenon. Which is hardly an answer to my questions :-( I posted an answer upthread, drawn from personal experience. To which I have just responded. I was now asking Rusty. I'm genuinely interested though as yet unconvinced. -- Malcolm |
More berries mean a hard winter - old wives tale?
In article , Malcolm
writes You will often see recommendations to keep plants in pots or situations where roots are restricted, for example. This is because it causes them to fruit or flower better. A lot of people recommend such treatment for fig trees, for example. That's not quite the same, though, is it? We were discussing the production of flowers and fruit by wild-living trees, shrubs, etc., not the artificial conditions forced on them by gardeners who have discovered that if you restrict root growth you also restrict overall growth. I think the point with the fig is that in the wild it may grow in fairly scruffy ground - stony, dry, perhaps not much root run - in which case it produces quite a lot of fruit, or it may grow in fertile ground, in which case it puts on a lot of lush leafy growth and not so much fruit. Nasturtiums are similar - in fertile ground they produce masses of leafy growth and fewer flowers - it's not just that the flowers are hidden by the bigger leaves, there are fewer flowers than if they are grown on dry ground. Lettuces and radishes will grow vegetatively while there is plenty of water around, but water limitation encourages them to bolt - ie to produce flowers and seed. Eucharis - a handsome aspidistra-like plant with white daffodil like flowers - accepted method to encourage flowering is to withhold water for a period. These are merely examples, not botanical oddities. It makes sense - quite a heavy investment in flower and seed, so while the ground is good, concentrate on vegetative growth, but if the ground isn't good, invest in flower production, and maybe one of your offspring will find itself in better conditions. And by expressing it this way I'm not implying any conscious decision making process on the plant's behalf! ;-) -- Kay Easton Edward's earthworm page: http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/edward/index.htm |
More berries mean a hard winter - old wives tale?
Malcolm13/4/04 3:28
In article , Sacha writes Malcolm13/4/04 10:28 In article , Jaques d'Alltrades writes The message from Malcolm contains these words: In article , Jaques d'Alltrades writes snip Not so. When a plant/tree/shrub is badly stressed and 'thinks' it's dying, it often produces an abundance of bloom. Interesting. How does it achieve this and have you seen examples? Well known phenomenon. Which is hardly an answer to my questions :-( I posted an answer upthread, drawn from personal experience. To which I have just responded. I was now asking Rusty. I'm genuinely interested though as yet unconvinced. If you're interested enough, there are quite a few books on the behaviour of plants under stress, many of them too deeply scientific to be of interest to most 'ordinary' gardeners, including myself. A lot of what is known about plants, their treatment and cultivation is from generations of observation and some people don't receive that information for one reason or another. For example, in that famous drought of '76, my father in law was astonished to discover that used washing up water and bath water killed off greenfly because of the soap in both. He was not only much older than me, he was a much more knowledgeable and expert gardener but I'd known that from a child because my grandfather used the remedy. When pa-in-law learned this he was in his 60s. I think a lot of gardeners will have observed that mature plants under stress will behave as we've been discussing - sort of a 'last fling', I suppose! -- Sacha (remove the weeds to email me) |
More berries mean a hard winter - old wives tale?
Malcolm13/4/04 3:28
snip The acorns produced during the 1976 drought were the result of flowers produced that spring, before the drought started, which in turn were the result of the oaks having sufficient energy reserves laid down in summer/autumn 1975 to produce them. Surely the fact that there were still masses of acorns despite the drought is evidence that the oaks were coping with the conditions rather well? If they hadn't been coping, I would have expected them to have shed the acorns long before they reached maturity. Well, all I can say is that in Jersey - which is where I observed these particular trees - the drought lasted from early May to October (following IIRC a dry spring. We often have a drought in Jersey in February) and never before or since have I seen so many acorns on oak trees anywhere. our Eucryphia amazed us by blooming profusely in January. We wondered if it was too early or too late - wrong on both counts. It was dead a couple of months later. The abundance of flower/fruits is to ensure survival of the species. I assume you mean January 1977. I meant January of last year. In which case, could it not have been that, having got its seasons in a muddle, the plant died within a couple of months *because* it diverted its energies into flower production at the wrong time, not that it did so because it "knew" it was dying? No, because it did not die in '97. It died after blooming in January of last year. Ray, who known this garden much longer than I have, said he had never OTOH, following the drought at the end of last summer, our mimosa tree bloomed better than it ever has, thus supporting the 'stress' theory even further. So far, it's still alive! You will often see recommendations to keep plants in pots or situations where roots are restricted, for example. This is because it causes them to fruit or flower better. A lot of people recommend such treatment for fig trees, for example. That's not quite the same, though, is it? We were discussing the production of flowers and fruit by wild-living trees, shrubs, etc., not the artificial conditions forced on them by gardeners who have discovered that if you restrict root growth you also restrict overall growth. Neither the oak trees, the mimosa nor the Eucryphia were restricted in any way. I used the examples above because they mimic natural stress. Several people have commented to us that they have never seen the gorse on Dartmoor in such bloom as it is right now; nor so many primroses in the banks and hedgerows, so many daffodils growing wild etc. etc. and last autumn was abnormally dry and prolonged. Tonight, without mentioning our discussion here, I asked one lady what she put all this down to "oh, the hot weather last year, dear" was her immediate answer. She's 86 and has gardened a bit in her time..... -- Sacha www.hillhousenursery.co.uk South Devon (remove the weeds to email me) |
More berries mean a hard winter - old wives tale?
In article , Sacha writes Malcolm13/4/04 3:28 $eAFw$6@inda al.demon.co.uk snip The acorns produced during the 1976 drought were the result of flowers produced that spring, before the drought started, which in turn were the result of the oaks having sufficient energy reserves laid down in summer/autumn 1975 to produce them. Surely the fact that there were still masses of acorns despite the drought is evidence that the oaks were coping with the conditions rather well? If they hadn't been coping, I would have expected them to have shed the acorns long before they reached maturity. Well, all I can say is that in Jersey - which is where I observed these particular trees - the drought lasted from early May to October (following IIRC a dry spring. We often have a drought in Jersey in February) and never before or since have I seen so many acorns on oak trees anywhere. It was clearly a great seed-setting year. our Eucryphia amazed us by blooming profusely in January. We wondered if it was too early or too late - wrong on both counts. It was dead a couple of months later. The abundance of flower/fruits is to ensure survival of the species. I assume you mean January 1977. I meant January of last year. Ah, I thought you were still discussing 1976! In which case, could it not have been that, having got its seasons in a muddle, the plant died within a couple of months *because* it diverted its energies into flower production at the wrong time, not that it did so because it "knew" it was dying? No, because it did not die in '97. It died after blooming in January of last year. Ray, who known this garden much longer than I have, said he had never I'm now completely lost. What has '97 got to do with anything????? OTOH, following the drought at the end of last summer, our mimosa tree bloomed better than it ever has, thus supporting the 'stress' theory even further. So far, it's still alive! I'm delighted to hear it. You will often see recommendations to keep plants in pots or situations where roots are restricted, for example. This is because it causes them to fruit or flower better. A lot of people recommend such treatment for fig trees, for example. That's not quite the same, though, is it? We were discussing the production of flowers and fruit by wild-living trees, shrubs, etc., not the artificial conditions forced on them by gardeners who have discovered that if you restrict root growth you also restrict overall growth. Neither the oak trees, the mimosa nor the Eucryphia were restricted in any way. I used the examples above because they mimic natural stress. Several people have commented to us that they have never seen the gorse on Dartmoor in such bloom as it is right now; nor so many primroses in the banks and hedgerows, so many daffodils growing wild etc. etc. and last autumn was abnormally dry and prolonged. Tonight, without mentioning our discussion here, I asked one lady what she put all this down to "oh, the hot weather last year, dear" was her immediate answer. She's 86 and has gardened a bit in her time..... There's nothing wrong with a bit of hot weather when it comes to helping plants grow. -- Malcolm |
More berries mean a hard winter - old wives tale?
The message
from Malcolm contains these words: In article , Sacha writes I posted an answer upthread, drawn from personal experience. To which I have just responded. I was now asking Rusty. I'm genuinely interested though as yet unconvinced. Well, I haven't the time to enter into arguments about it or google for you. It's been well-known and well publicised to my knowledge ever since I began listening to GQT. -- Rusty Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar. http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/ |
More berries mean a hard winter - old wives tale?
Jaques d'Alltrades14/4/04 2:23
The message from Malcolm contains these words: In article , Sacha writes I posted an answer upthread, drawn from personal experience. To which I have just responded. I was now asking Rusty. I'm genuinely interested though as yet unconvinced. Well, I haven't the time to enter into arguments about it or google for you. It's been well-known and well publicised to my knowledge ever since I began listening to GQT. I think this is one of those things that many gardeners 'know' but haven't studied scientifically. However, as I said upthread, if anyone is interested enough to pursue the matter, there are a lot of books on the subject. -- Sacha (remove the weeds to email me) |
More berries mean a hard winter - old wives tale?
In article , Sacha writes: | Jaques d'Alltrades14/4/04 2:23 | | The message | from Malcolm contains these words: | In article , Sacha | writes | | I posted an answer upthread, drawn from personal experience. | | To which I have just responded. I was now asking Rusty. I'm genuinely | interested though as yet unconvinced. | | Well, I haven't the time to enter into arguments about it or google for | you. It's been well-known and well publicised to my knowledge ever since | I began listening to GQT. | | I think this is one of those things that many gardeners 'know' but haven't | studied scientifically. However, as I said upthread, if anyone is | interested enough to pursue the matter, there are a lot of books on the | subject. It has been studied scientifically, and is 'correct', though the phenomenon isn't quite as simple as that and the explanation isn't necessarily that one. I don't have a reference, I am afraid. One other aspect is that plants not under stress often put their energy into growth and, in many plants, rapid growth and flowering are more-or-less exclusive. You can see this with spinach, fat hen and lots of such plants, where a period of stress will stop their rapid growth and they will then flower (irrespective of size!) But exactly what the interactions are I don't know, and I am not sure that botanists do, either. What is certain is that the gardeners' rule is effectively correct - stress and flowering are often linked. Note that, as with many such effects, this applies to plants adapted to 'seasonal' climates (including the savanna); those adapted to the humid tropics are more likely to sulk if stressed. Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
More berries mean a hard winter - old wives tale?
On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 03:55:47 +0100, Jaques d'Alltrades
wrote: Come into the potting shed and park yourself on that old sack of hardened cement I borrowed from Another Place. Cup of tea? Aaar. I am now able to be a licensed radio ham, so can we call it a shack? wondering about where to hide the ariel now that the lilies have gone Glenys -- "A Newsweek poll said if the election were held today, John Kerry would beat Bush 49 percent to 46 percent. And today, President Bush called Newsweek magazine a threat to world peace." Jay Leno |
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