I have bought a plant that I think is a ravenala (ravenala
madagascariensis), but now I have doubts it could be a giant [white] bird
of paradise (strelitzia nicolai). Any ideas on how to distinguish these
two?

--
Yukinoroh

On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 23:06:43 GMT, Yukinoroh
wrote:

I have bought a plant that I think is a ravenala (ravenala
madagascariensis), but now I have doubts it could be a giant [white] bird
of paradise (strelitzia nicolai). Any ideas on how to distinguish these
two?

I've grown both and very young plants (up to about 3-4 years old) can
be quite difficult to distinguish. However, Ravenala carries its
leaves in a very distinct, single plane and this tends to be obvious
quite early on it's life. Unfortunately, a young Strelitzia nicolai
can do similar, although it is rarely as obvious and the plant tends
to produce new shoots (suckers) quite freely.

By contrast, Ravenala tends to wait for several to many years before
producing offsets. In both plants, the leaf blade is a rather
elongated spoon shape, but in Ravenala, the leaf blade tends to taper
noticeably beyond the mid point. With age, this tapering becomes very
noticeable.

Sorry I can't be more precise, but Strelitzia and Ravenala are very
closely related and are often only truly distinguishable from each
other at the mid-juvenile stage (from 5 years on). Strelitzia nicolai
is easily the most commonly available and unless your plant was
labelled as Ravenala by a reputable nursery, the probability is in
favour of it being Strelitzia.

HTH
Dave Poole
Torquay, Coastal South Devon UK
Winter min -2°C. Summer max 34°C.
Growing season: March - November
Drop 's' when mailing

On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 04:33:03 +0100, Dave Poole
wrote:

On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 23:06:43 GMT, Yukinoroh
wrote:

I have bought a plant that I think is a ravenala (ravenala
madagascariensis), but now I have doubts it could be a giant [white] bird
of paradise (strelitzia nicolai). Any ideas on how to distinguish these
two?

I've grown both and very young plants (up to about 3-4 years old) can
be quite difficult to distinguish. However, Ravenala carries its
leaves in a very distinct, single plane and this tends to be obvious
quite early on it's life.
snip

I first saw a picture of R. madagascariensis in a book a couple of
years ago, and was stunned by its elegantly fanned leaves. A 'must
have', I thought. But then I saw the real thing at Eden (not far
inside the entrance to the tropical bubble, on the left), and realised
that (a) they weren't all as neatly symmetrical as my picture, (b) the
picture only showed the top of the plant and didn't show the
substantial trunk below the leaves, and (c) the whole thing would be
far to big for my conservatory, even if I could get hold of one (I see
that Chiltern do seeds). So I stick with manageable strelitzias.


--
Chris

E-mail: christopher[dot]hogg[at]virgin[dot]net

Dave Poole wrote in message . ..

I've grown both and very young plants (up to about 3-4 years old) can
be quite difficult to distinguish. However, Ravenala carries its
leaves in a very distinct, single plane and this tends to be obvious
quite early on it's life. Unfortunately, a young Strelitzia nicolai
can do similar, although it is rarely as obvious and the plant tends
to produce new shoots (suckers) quite freely.

By contrast, Ravenala tends to wait for several to many years before
producing offsets. In both plants, the leaf blade is a rather
elongated spoon shape, but in Ravenala, the leaf blade tends to taper
noticeably beyond the mid point. With age, this tapering becomes very
noticeable.

Sorry I can't be more precise, but Strelitzia and Ravenala are very
closely related and are often only truly distinguishable from each
other at the mid-juvenile stage (from 5 years on). Strelitzia nicolai
is easily the most commonly available and unless your plant was
labelled as Ravenala by a reputable nursery, the probability is in
favour of it being Strelitzia.

HTH
Dave Poole
Torquay, Coastal South Devon UK
Winter min -2°C. Summer max 34°C.
Growing season: March - November
Drop 's' when mailing

Thanks for the explanation !
The leaves don't look tapered, so I think it is a Strelitzia nicolai.
Though, I hadve doubts about alba/augusta.

http://www.clemson.edu/charleston/lo...bopspecies.htm

On that website they say that alba grows as clumps and nicolai is
fan-shaped, but the picture of alba makes it look fan-shaped too...
Are there any other characteristics that could difference the two
(alba/augusta and nicolai) ?

Thanks a lot for the help

On 27 Jun 2004 06:58:39 -0700, (Yukinoroh)
wrote:

Thanks for the explanation !
The leaves don't look tapered, so I think it is a Strelitzia nicolai.
Though, I hadve doubts about alba/augusta.
Snip
Are there any other characteristics that could difference the two
(alba/augusta and nicolai) ?

To the uninitiated, it is very difficult to make out any great
differences between the two species when young. However, if you look
at the base of the leaf blade where it joins the leaf stem, in S.
alba, the blade tapers into the stem or joins it without going back
upon itself (the correct term for this leaf blade base is 'obtuse').
In S. nicolai, the blade extends down slightly beyond where it joins
the leaf stem ('cordate').

Some authorities class S. alba as being the biggest, whilst others
consider S. nicolai as being the largest - it matters little, they
are both massive growing herbs and not ideally suited to pot or
container culture after a few years.

The probability remains that you have S. nicolai - it is by far the
most widely distributed of the two. S. alba is rarely offered outside
the sub tropics and is usually only seen as a botanical gardens
specimen in temperate regions.

In the UK, there has been quite a lot of interest in S. nicolai in
recent years. This is due to its potential as a garden plant in warm,
sheltered gardens. It grows out of doors at St. Ives in Cornwall and
a few are trying it out in sheltered gardens in London. I've not yet
tried it (due to lack of space) and still only grow the common 'Bird
of Paradise' - Strelitzia reginae as a garden plant.


Dave Poole
Torquay, Coastal South Devon UK
Winter min -2°C. Summer max 34°C.
Growing season: March - November

Dave Poole wrote in
:

On 27 Jun 2004 06:58:39 -0700, (Yukinoroh)
wrote:

Thanks for the explanation !
The leaves don't look tapered, so I think it is a Strelitzia nicolai.
Though, I hadve doubts about alba/augusta.
Snip
Are there any other characteristics that could difference the two
(alba/augusta and nicolai) ?

To the uninitiated, it is very difficult to make out any great
differences between the two species when young. However, if you look
at the base of the leaf blade where it joins the leaf stem, in S.
alba, the blade tapers into the stem or joins it without going back
upon itself (the correct term for this leaf blade base is 'obtuse').
In S. nicolai, the blade extends down slightly beyond where it joins
the leaf stem ('cordate').

http://www.nps.gov/mora/notes/vol16-1-2g.htm

LEAVES CLASSIFIED ACCORDING TO FORM OF BASE

The blades taper into the stems as a "v" shape. And it looks more like 3,
although on some leaves the base is broken and it gets almost horizontal -
but it never curves down even a bit as in 4. I shall conclude it's an
alba/augusta.


Some authorities class S. alba as being the biggest, whilst others
consider S. nicolai as being the largest - it matters little, they
are both massive growing herbs and not ideally suited to pot or
container culture after a few years.

The probability remains that you have S. nicolai - it is by far the
most widely distributed of the two. S. alba is rarely offered outside
the sub tropics and is usually only seen as a botanical gardens
specimen in temperate regions.


I found mine at the grocery store (^^, It was sold as an office plant and
was labeled "miscellaneous" with the price, and no name. Kind of
frustrating for a plant lover, but I really thought it was a ravenala (-_-,


In the UK, there has been quite a lot of interest in S. nicolai in
recent years. This is due to its potential as a garden plant in warm,
sheltered gardens. It grows out of doors at St. Ives in Cornwall and
a few are trying it out in sheltered gardens in London. I've not yet
tried it (due to lack of space) and still only grow the common 'Bird
of Paradise' - Strelitzia reginae as a garden plant.


I saw that one on the web, but it looks too small to me, hehe. I like big
plants with big stems and leaves, thus my interest in Strelitziacea, and
also Carica Papaya.

Again, thanks a lot for the help!


P.S.: I know I used this group although I am not in UK (Quebec actually)
and I'm sorry abotu that, but I had posted this on rec.gardening too,
without any significant reply. (~-~;

--
Yukinoroh

http://212.203.14.81/nedfern/www/photo/per/02/002-1.htm

Now with thi pic of a strelitzia nicolai, I have new doubts (~_~,

There seems to be also a place where the blade joins with the stem into a v
- I was referring to the very bottom of that v as the place where it joins
to tell if it's obtuse or cordate, but I noticed you said "extend down
*slightly*". Maybe it does; it's hard to tell. The v part makes me think
it's obtuse, but above that part sometimes it does cordate slightly (not on
all leaves, and never on both sides). I think I'll stick with the
probability it's a nicolai for now...

--
Yukinoroh

Dave Poole wrote in message . ..

I've grown both and very young plants (up to about 3-4 years old) can
be quite difficult to distinguish. However, Ravenala carries its
leaves in a very distinct, single plane and this tends to be obvious
quite early on it's life. Unfortunately, a young Strelitzia nicolai
can do similar, although it is rarely as obvious and the plant tends
to produce new shoots (suckers) quite freely.

By contrast, Ravenala tends to wait for several to many years before
producing offsets. In both plants, the leaf blade is a rather
elongated spoon shape, but in Ravenala, the leaf blade tends to taper
noticeably beyond the mid point. With age, this tapering becomes very
noticeable.

Sorry I can't be more precise, but Strelitzia and Ravenala are very
closely related and are often only truly distinguishable from each
other at the mid-juvenile stage (from 5 years on). Strelitzia nicolai
is easily the most commonly available and unless your plant was
labelled as Ravenala by a reputable nursery, the probability is in
favour of it being Strelitzia.

HTH
Dave Poole
Torquay, Coastal South Devon UK
Winter min -2°C. Summer max 34°C.
Growing season: March - November
Drop 's' when mailing

Thanks for the explanation !
The leaves don't look tapered, so I think it is a Strelitzia nicolai.
Though, I hadve doubts about alba/augusta.

http://www.clemson.edu/charleston/lo...bopspecies.htm

On that website they say that alba grows as clumps and nicolai is
fan-shaped, but the picture of alba makes it look fan-shaped too...
Are there any other characteristics that could difference the two
(alba/augusta and nicolai) ?

Thanks a lot for the help

On 27 Jun 2004 06:58:39 -0700, (Yukinoroh)
wrote:

Thanks for the explanation !
The leaves don't look tapered, so I think it is a Strelitzia nicolai.
Though, I hadve doubts about alba/augusta.
Snip
Are there any other characteristics that could difference the two
(alba/augusta and nicolai) ?

To the uninitiated, it is very difficult to make out any great
differences between the two species when young. However, if you look
at the base of the leaf blade where it joins the leaf stem, in S.
alba, the blade tapers into the stem or joins it without going back
upon itself (the correct term for this leaf blade base is 'obtuse').
In S. nicolai, the blade extends down slightly beyond where it joins
the leaf stem ('cordate').

Some authorities class S. alba as being the biggest, whilst others
consider S. nicolai as being the largest - it matters little, they
are both massive growing herbs and not ideally suited to pot or
container culture after a few years.

The probability remains that you have S. nicolai - it is by far the
most widely distributed of the two. S. alba is rarely offered outside
the sub tropics and is usually only seen as a botanical gardens
specimen in temperate regions.

In the UK, there has been quite a lot of interest in S. nicolai in
recent years. This is due to its potential as a garden plant in warm,
sheltered gardens. It grows out of doors at St. Ives in Cornwall and
a few are trying it out in sheltered gardens in London. I've not yet
tried it (due to lack of space) and still only grow the common 'Bird
of Paradise' - Strelitzia reginae as a garden plant.


Dave Poole
Torquay, Coastal South Devon UK
Winter min -2°C. Summer max 34°C.
Growing season: March - November

Dave Poole wrote in
:

On 27 Jun 2004 06:58:39 -0700, (Yukinoroh)
wrote:

Thanks for the explanation !
The leaves don't look tapered, so I think it is a Strelitzia nicolai.
Though, I hadve doubts about alba/augusta.
Snip
Are there any other characteristics that could difference the two
(alba/augusta and nicolai) ?

To the uninitiated, it is very difficult to make out any great
differences between the two species when young. However, if you look
at the base of the leaf blade where it joins the leaf stem, in S.
alba, the blade tapers into the stem or joins it without going back
upon itself (the correct term for this leaf blade base is 'obtuse').
In S. nicolai, the blade extends down slightly beyond where it joins
the leaf stem ('cordate').

http://www.nps.gov/mora/notes/vol16-1-2g.htm

LEAVES CLASSIFIED ACCORDING TO FORM OF BASE

The blades taper into the stems as a "v" shape. And it looks more like 3,
although on some leaves the base is broken and it gets almost horizontal -
but it never curves down even a bit as in 4. I shall conclude it's an
alba/augusta.


Some authorities class S. alba as being the biggest, whilst others
consider S. nicolai as being the largest - it matters little, they
are both massive growing herbs and not ideally suited to pot or
container culture after a few years.

The probability remains that you have S. nicolai - it is by far the
most widely distributed of the two. S. alba is rarely offered outside
the sub tropics and is usually only seen as a botanical gardens
specimen in temperate regions.


I found mine at the grocery store (^^, It was sold as an office plant and
was labeled "miscellaneous" with the price, and no name. Kind of
frustrating for a plant lover, but I really thought it was a ravenala (-_-,


In the UK, there has been quite a lot of interest in S. nicolai in
recent years. This is due to its potential as a garden plant in warm,
sheltered gardens. It grows out of doors at St. Ives in Cornwall and
a few are trying it out in sheltered gardens in London. I've not yet
tried it (due to lack of space) and still only grow the common 'Bird
of Paradise' - Strelitzia reginae as a garden plant.


I saw that one on the web, but it looks too small to me, hehe. I like big
plants with big stems and leaves, thus my interest in Strelitziacea, and
also Carica Papaya.

Again, thanks a lot for the help!


P.S.: I know I used this group although I am not in UK (Quebec actually)
and I'm sorry abotu that, but I had posted this on rec.gardening too,
without any significant reply. (~-~;

--
Yukinoroh

http://212.203.14.81/nedfern/www/photo/per/02/002-1.htm

Now with thi pic of a strelitzia nicolai, I have new doubts (~_~,

There seems to be also a place where the blade joins with the stem into a v
- I was referring to the very bottom of that v as the place where it joins
to tell if it's obtuse or cordate, but I noticed you said "extend down
*slightly*". Maybe it does; it's hard to tell. The v part makes me think
it's obtuse, but above that part sometimes it does cordate slightly (not on
all leaves, and never on both sides). I think I'll stick with the
probability it's a nicolai for now...

--
Yukinoroh

http://aoki2.si.gunma-u.ac.jp/Botani...u-augasta.html

It is definately not like the leaf on the left, on the bottom pic. So maybe
it's nicolai, after all.

But on the other hand...

http://www.dipbot.unict.it/sistematica/Musa_fam.html

If that picture is really of augusta then I am confused (^^, Oh well...


--
Yukinoroh