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Plants feelings
Recently I saw a programme about whether or not plants have feelings - some
said "of course they don't" and there were others who said they were sure they did. What do you think? |
Plants feelings
In article , Helen
writes Recently I saw a programme about whether or not plants have feelings - some said "of course they don't" and there were others who said they were sure they did. What do you think? Plants react to their treatment and surroundings by various means. They are born, grow, feed, drink, procreate, protect themselves, age and die. They are living beings, as are mobile creatures of the animal world. They do not have a brain but they do have the equivalent of a nerve system by which messages are carried between their physical parts. In humans, feelings are seen as the operation of the nerve system in body and mind. That makes them sentient creatures. They can observe and communicate about the feelings of other beings, but they cannot experience them. That has often led to a belief that such feelings do not exist, as seen in the case of fish, animals and even other humans. I personally think that plants do have feelings of a type, though probably not experienced as humans feel pain or emotion. -- Alan & Joan Gould - North Lincs. |
Plants feelings
In article , Helen
writes Recently I saw a programme about whether or not plants have feelings - some said "of course they don't" and there were others who said they were sure they did. What do you think? First you have to be clear about what you mean by 'feelings'. Mere reaction to sensory perception? Emotional response? -- Kay "Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river" |
Plants feelings
Alan Gould wrote:
In article , Helen writes Recently I saw a programme about whether or not plants have feelings - some said "of course they don't" and there were others who said they were sure they did. What do you think? Plants react to their treatment and surroundings by various means. They are born, grow, feed, drink, procreate, protect themselves, age and die. They are living beings, as are mobile creatures of the animal world. They do not have a brain but they do have the equivalent of a nerve system by which messages are carried between their physical parts. In humans, feelings are seen as the operation of the nerve system in body and mind. That makes them sentient creatures. They can observe and communicate about the feelings of other beings, but they cannot experience them. That has often led to a belief that such feelings do not exist, as seen in the case of fish, animals and even other humans. I personally think that plants do have feelings of a type, though probably not experienced as humans feel pain or emotion. If it is ever proved that plants have feelings, and can feel pain what on earth are veggies going to do? :-( -- Please do not reply by Email, as all emails to this address are automatically deleted. |
Plants feelings
In message , Broadback
writes If it is ever proved that plants have feelings, and can feel pain what on earth are veggies going to do? :-( Eat cabbages that are certified to have died a natural death. (Who originally wrote that? - Asimov?) -- dave @ stejonda Bring culture back to NTL. http://www.performance-channel.com/ |
Plants feelings
In article , Broadback
writes If it is ever proved that plants have feelings, and can feel pain what on earth are veggies going to do? :-( They become frutarians - who will only eat bits that animals and plants shed - fruit is OK, as is milk and possibly eggs, but not carrots. -- Kay "Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river" |
Plants feelings
In message , Kay
writes fruit is OK, as is milk though it's not the milk that is the concern but the veal that is necessary for (cow) milk to be produced -- dave @ stejonda Bring culture back to NTL. http://www.performance-channel.com/ |
Plants feelings
"Helen" wrote in message u... Recently I saw a programme about whether or not plants have feelings - some said "of course they don't" and there were others who said they were sure they did. What do you think? Not having a nervous system, I feel they probably don't, but there are huge discussions on the net about this very subject: http://ar.vegnews.org/plant_consciousness.html Jenny |
Plants feelings
In article , dave @ stejonda NoSpamThanks
@stejonda.freeuk.com writes In message , Kay writes fruit is OK, as is milk though it's not the milk that is the concern but the veal that is necessary for (cow) milk to be produced That's not strictly so, is it? You can take some of a cow's milk and leave enough for the calf. I thought veal production had a whole source of other worries. It's impossible to live without drawing some veil over some aspect of what you are doing. Different people draw the line in different places. The truth is that as a species we are just too abundant not to have an adverse effect. That doesn't absolve us from the responsibility to try to minimise that effect. -- Kay "Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river" |
Plants feelings
In article , JennyC
writes "Helen" wrote in message . au... Recently I saw a programme about whether or not plants have feelings - some said "of course they don't" and there were others who said they were sure they did. What do you think? Not having a nervous system, I feel they probably don't, Comes back to definition of 'feelings' doesn't it? Does someone whose nervous system is shot to hell have less 'feelings' than the rest of us? Less physical sensation, yes, but their emotions are intact, and their capacity for distress. I'm inclined to think it's something to do with the extent to which the control systems are centralised. -- Kay "Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river" |
On 14/8/04 13:56, in article ,
"Martin" wrote: On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 13:43:48 +0100, Sacha wrote: snip Do you remember there was something written about experiments in this line? Was it in The Secret Life of Plants? I seem to recall something about a scientist burning the leaf of a plant with a cigarette and then the plant was hooked up to electrodes to register its 'reactions'. When the same man entered the room again there was - apparently - a distinct reaction from the plant. I may not be remembering this very clearly but it was along those lines. Is this thread leading to giving up eating food all together? ;-) If taken to its logical conclusion it's going to given vegans and vegetarians food for nothing but thought. ;-) -- Sacha www.hillhousenursery.co.uk South Devon (remove the weeds to email me) |
On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 11:16:49 +1000, "Helen" wrote:
Recently I saw a programme about whether or not plants have feelings - some said "of course they don't" and there were others who said they were sure they did. What do you think? I think it unlikely. Evolution makes use of whatever advantages it can lay its hands on - and in the case of animals it's made very good use of the range of feelings that we might term 'instincts'. Had the same been true for plants then you might find that your courgettes would kick you in the shins when you tried to pick them...or your sweet peas slap you round the face when you tried to cut the blooms. They've been around a great deal longer than us, so it's fair to assume that if they haven't evolved in this fashion by now then they never will. Plants ( and any other living things ) have the ability to react to their environment based on what their senses, such as they are, allow them to perceive - although you could argue that for the most part these reactions are more mechanical in nature. Regards, -- Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations www.shwoodwind.co.uk Emails to: showard{whoisat}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk |
"Helen" wrote in message u... Recently I saw a programme about whether or not plants have feelings - some said "of course they don't" and there were others who said they were sure they did. What do you think? Show me the plant's memory and nervous systems. Franz |
"Helen" wrote in message u... Recently I saw a programme about whether or not plants have feelings - some said "of course they don't" and there were others who said they were sure they did. What do you think? Please define "feelings" before going f into this particular pseudo-philosophical direction. Franz |
"Martin" wrote in message ... On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 14:42:06 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann" wrote: "Helen" wrote in message . au... Recently I saw a programme about whether or not plants have feelings - some said "of course they don't" and there were others who said they were sure they did. What do you think? Show me the plant's memory and nervous systems. First show us yours :-) I can let you know where they reside. Is that enough information to make my point? {:-)) Franz -- Martin |
On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 17:45:51 +0100, Janet Baraclough..
wrote: The message from Stephen Howard contains these words: On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 11:16:49 +1000, "Helen" wrote: Recently I saw a programme about whether or not plants have feelings - some said "of course they don't" and there were others who said they were sure they did. What do you think? I think it unlikely. Evolution makes use of whatever advantages it can lay its hands on - and in the case of animals it's made very good use of the range of feelings that we might term 'instincts'. Had the same been true for plants then you might find that your courgettes would kick you in the shins when you tried to pick them...or your sweet peas slap you round the face when you tried to cut the blooms. They've been around a great deal longer than us, so it's fair to assume that if they haven't evolved in this fashion by now then they never will. What about nettles, thorny things and poisonous plants? They might not be able to kick you in the shins (though I've met docks that could wrestle a grown man to the ground) but they have evolved a means to resist "attack". That's true - but the system they've evolved is an 'always on' one. The presence of 'feelings' would surely give rise to a range of defence/attack mechanisms that would be brought into play at discretion, in reaction to certain conditions...in the same way that a little terrier can be a cute, fluffy ball of fun one minute, and a mass of sharp, pointy teeth the next ( or is that just my dog? ). Having said all that, I'm pretty sure my Heliotropes are sulking... Regards, -- Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations www.shwoodwind.co.uk Emails to: showard{whoisat}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk |
Stephen Howard wrote:
On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 17:45:51 +0100, Janet Baraclough.. wrote: The message from Stephen Howard contains these words: On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 11:16:49 +1000, "Helen" wrote: Recently I saw a programme about whether or not plants have feelings - some said "of course they don't" and there were others who said they were sure they did. What do you think? I think it unlikely. Evolution makes use of whatever advantages it can lay its hands on - and in the case of animals it's made very good use of the range of feelings that we might term 'instincts'. Had the same been true for plants then you might find that your courgettes would kick you in the shins when you tried to pick them...or your sweet peas slap you round the face when you tried to cut the blooms. They've been around a great deal longer than us, so it's fair to assume that if they haven't evolved in this fashion by now then they never will. What about nettles, thorny things and poisonous plants? They might not be able to kick you in the shins (though I've met docks that could wrestle a grown man to the ground) but they have evolved a means to resist "attack". That's true - but the system they've evolved is an 'always on' one. The presence of 'feelings' would surely give rise to a range of defence/attack mechanisms that would be brought into play at discretion, in reaction to certain conditions...in the same way that a little terrier can be a cute, fluffy ball of fun one minute, and a mass of sharp, pointy teeth the next ( or is that just my dog? ). Having said all that, I'm pretty sure my Heliotropes are sulking... Regards, If I may steal an idea from an ancient philosopher, how do you know that nettles do not sting unless something brushes against them? -- Please do not reply by Email, as all emails to this address are automatically deleted. |
"Janet Baraclough.." wrote in message ... The message from Martin contains these words: On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 14:42:06 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann" wrote: Show me the plant's memory and nervous systems. First show us yours :-) I hope you're not suggesting Franz's memory and sensibility might be compared with those of a turnip? It is moving in that general direction at an alarmingly rapid rate of increase, but as best I can judge, I am not quite there yet. Franz |
In article , Broadback
writes in answer to someone else That's true - but the system they've evolved is an 'always on' one. The presence of 'feelings' would surely give rise to a range of defence/attack mechanisms that would be brought into play at discretion, in reaction to certain conditions...in the same way that a little terrier can be a cute, fluffy ball of fun one minute, and a mass of sharp, pointy teeth the next ( or is that just my dog? ). If I may steal an idea from an ancient philosopher, how do you know that nettles do not sting unless something brushes against them? What about Venus fly trap, which ignores a prod with a pencil, but reacts to a live and buzzing fly? OK, you may say that is mechanical, but then so are all our senses when you look at them closely enough. -- Kay "Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river" |
In article , Broadback
writes If it is ever proved that plants have feelings, and can feel pain what on earth are veggies going to do? :-( The same as non-veggies do knowing that animals feel pain. -- Alan & Joan Gould - North Lincs. |
In article , Sacha
writes Do you remember there was something written about experiments in this line? Was it in The Secret Life of Plants? I seem to recall something about a scientist burning the leaf of a plant with a cigarette and then the plant was hooked up to electrodes to register its 'reactions'. When the same man entered the room again there was - apparently - a distinct reaction from the plant. I may not be remembering this very clearly but it was along those lines. 'The Secret Life of Plants' was compiled by Peter Tompkins and Christopher Bird in 1973. It was published by Allen Lane for Penguin Books as ISBN 0 7139 0594 8. Though it quoted an exhaustive bibliography of scientific and non-scientific material it was seen as a somewhat tongue in cheek attempt to open up the subject of plant feelings. Reading it put me firmly in the pro Plant life/rights/feelings camp. This group conducted a very comprehensive discussion begun by me of the issues involved in [IIRC] late 1997 under the title 'A Philospohical Approach'. I learned much from that long thread about gardeners' reactions to the idea of plants having feelings, but little firm evidence one way or the other about the OT. Little seems to have changed since then. -- Alan & Joan Gould - North Lincs. |
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In article , Janet Baraclough.
.. writes I hope you're not suggesting Franz's memory and sensibility might be compared with those of a turnip? More likely a Kohl Rabi. -- Alan & Joan Gould - North Lincs. |
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"Alan Gould" wrote in message ... In article , Janet Baraclough. . writes I hope you're not suggesting Franz's memory and sensibility might be compared with those of a turnip? More likely a Kohl Rabi. {:-)) Franz |
"Alan Gould" wrote in message ... In article , Franz Heymann notfranz. writes Show me the plant's memory and nervous systems. Tell me that they do not sleep at night, or hibernate in winter. Neither photosensitivity nor temperature-sensitive behaviour are indicative of the presence of intelligent behaviour. Have you ever come across shape memory solids? Have you considered that humble water also hibernates when the temperature drops below 0 deg C? Have you considerd the fact that a solar cell also goes to sleep at night? Franz |
"Alan Gould" wrote in message ... In article , Franz Heymann notfranz. writes Please define "feelings" before going f into this particular pseudo-philosophical direction. Corporal or emotional reactions. No. Water reacts corporally by becoming steam at a suitable combination of pressure and temperature. A torch battery reacts corporally by refusing to pass a current through a light bulb when certain chemical changes have occurred in it. Would you like more contra-indications? I challenge you to design an experiment which would prove that a plant has any emotional reactions. The concept is an emergent phenomenon which can only be described at all in the case of higher animals. Franz |
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On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 19:39:33 +0100, Kay
wrote: In article , Broadback writes in answer to someone else That's true - but the system they've evolved is an 'always on' one. The presence of 'feelings' would surely give rise to a range of defence/attack mechanisms that would be brought into play at discretion, in reaction to certain conditions...in the same way that a little terrier can be a cute, fluffy ball of fun one minute, and a mass of sharp, pointy teeth the next ( or is that just my dog? ). If I may steal an idea from an ancient philosopher, how do you know that nettles do not sting unless something brushes against them? You mean in the sense that they leap out and jump you? Could be right there...I always seem to end up getting stung, even when I know exactly where the nettles are. What about Venus fly trap, which ignores a prod with a pencil, but reacts to a live and buzzing fly? That it can discriminate is perhaps down to a array of finely honed sensors. I'd bet it wouldn't do so well with, say, an artist's brush...unless it reacts to a range of frequencies that might be set up by the beating of an insect's wing? OK, you may say that is mechanical, but then so are all our senses when you look at them closely enough. True...in the sense that there's a reaction to a stimulus, but having an emotional response is an entirely different kettle of fish ( and thereby hangs yet another debate ). Regards ( currently consoling a depressed courgette ), -- Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk Emails to: showard{who is at}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk |
On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 06:24:13 +0100, Alan Gould
wrote: In article , Helen writes Recently I saw a programme about whether or not plants have feelings - some said "of course they don't" and there were others who said they were sure they did. What do you think? Plants react to their treatment and surroundings by various means. They are born, grow, feed, drink, procreate, protect themselves, age and die. They are living beings, as are mobile creatures of the animal world. They do not have a brain but they do have the equivalent of a nerve system by which messages are carried between their physical parts. In humans, feelings are seen as the operation of the nerve system in body and mind. That makes them sentient creatures. They can observe and communicate about the feelings of other beings, but they cannot experience them. That has often led to a belief that such feelings do not exist, as seen in the case of fish, animals and even other humans. I personally think that plants do have feelings of a type, though probably not experienced as humans feel pain or emotion. Respond to stimuli is one of the six things that all living things do. I have been trying to remember the other five:- Eat, breathe, reproduce, grow and ???. Judging by myself the sixth thing could be forget! P |
"Kay" wrote in message ... What about Venus fly trap, which ignores a prod with a pencil, but reacts to a live and buzzing fly? snip You have to touch the hairs in the trap twice to trigger it. It saves the plant wasteing energy on something that isn't alive. -- Regards, Alan. Preserve wildlife - Pickle a SQUIRREL to reply. |
In article , Sacha
writes But was it in that book that the experiment I'm thinking of was cited? Do you recall? Yes, [I still have the book] there are a lot of experiments quoted linking plants, their life, their feelings, their growth etc. to electricity and magnetism. The one you refer to was actually a test to see if plants had extra-sensory perception - between them and/or to other beings. I quote a part of the experiment: 'He [Clee Baxter, a lie detector expert] then conceived a worse threat: he would burn the actual leaf to which the electrodes [of a lie detector] were attached. The very instant he got the picture of flame in his mind, and before he could move for a match, there was a dramatic change in the tracing pattern on the graph in the form of a prolonged upward sweep of the recording pen. Bakster had not moved, either towards the plant or towards the recording machine. Could the plant have been reading his mind?' Later Bakster reluctantly concluded that it had. -- Alan & Joan Gould - North Lincs. |
In article , Franz Heymann
writes I challenge you to design an experiment which would prove that a plant has any emotional reactions. The concept is an emergent phenomenon which can only be described at all in the case of higher animals. I have quoted one in this thread in a response to Sacha. FWIW, I see plants as the highest of beings. Partly because they were around long before animals, and partly because whereas animals, including humans, are totally dependent upon plants, plant-life has no need of animals - even of gardeners. -- Alan & Joan Gould - North Lincs. |
In article , Peter
writes Respond to stimuli is one of the six things that all living things do. I have been trying to remember the other five:- Eat, breathe, reproduce, grow and ???. Judging by myself the sixth thing could be forget! I knew this a year ago when my son was doing GCSEs ;-) But my mind has gone blank. /goes and searches out Revision Guide First - it's seven, not six ;-) Movement reproduction sensitivity nutrition excretion respiration growth -- Kay "Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river" |
In article , Stephen Howard
writes On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 19:39:33 +0100, Kay wrote: What about Venus fly trap, which ignores a prod with a pencil, but reacts to a live and buzzing fly? That it can discriminate is perhaps down to a array of finely honed sensors. I'd bet it wouldn't do so well with, say, an artist's brush...unless it reacts to a range of frequencies that might be set up by the beating of an insect's wing? No it's a very simply arrangement - it has several hairs, rather like cats' whiskers, and more than one of them has to be touched in sequence to trigger the response. OK, you may say that is mechanical, but then so are all our senses when you look at them closely enough. True...in the sense that there's a reaction to a stimulus, but having an emotional response is an entirely different kettle of fish ( and thereby hangs yet another debate ). Regards ( currently consoling a depressed courgette ), -- Kay "Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river" |
On 15/8/04 6:22, in article , "Alan
Gould" wrote: snip 'He [Clee Baxter, a lie detector expert] then conceived a worse threat: he would burn the actual leaf to which the electrodes [of a lie detector] were attached. The very instant he got the picture of flame in his mind, and before he could move for a match, there was a dramatic change in the tracing pattern on the graph in the form of a prolonged upward sweep of the recording pen. Bakster had not moved, either towards the plant or towards the recording machine. Could the plant have been reading his mind?' Later Bakster reluctantly concluded that it had. That was it. Thanks for finding it again. -- Sacha www.hillhousenursery.co.uk South Devon (remove the weeds to email me) |
It strikes me that the word 'feelings' is getting a bit mixed up here.
That plants react to stimuli (in other words can 'sense') is not in dispute. They are highly reactive organisms and even without a recognisable central nervous system, can organise themselves to react quite rapidly according to whether they are under stress or otherwise. It has long fascinated me that the moment a herd of giraffes arrive to feed on one species of Acacia in the South African veldt, the entire neighbourhood of Acacias starts to mobilise huge and toxic quantities of tannins to both bark and shoots. After feeding for a short time, the animals have to move on to another species. I look upon this as an electrical stimulus given out and received by plants under attack. I suspect it is quite common and may even be transmitted through ground moisture. I carried out as bit of an experiment with the 'sensitive plant' - Mimosa pudica quite a few years ago. Seedlings were either potted up or planted out, 8" apart in deep trays. The potted plants were also kept 8" apart. If the leaves on a potted plant were hit or damaged, the entire plant would collapse as would be expected, but there was never a reaction in its neighbours. Those in the trays reacted differently on several occasions. Mild hitting of the leaf would result in the collapse of foliage on that plant only. However, cutting a leaf off or severely damaging it often (but not always) caused other plants in that tray to react as well - even though great care was taken not to touch or shake them in any way. Not a truly scientific experiment for it wasn't carried out on a large enough scale or over a long enough period. That said, it was an interesting exercise and my conclusions were that the plants responded electrically and that a fluctuation in electrical discharge was transmitted through the soil moisture, which was picked up by its neighbours, causing them to react as well. Back to feelings, I have great difficulty in according plants with the ability to feel in an emotional way (love, hate etc.) for this requires quite complex thought processing. Emotion is a consequence of the need to remain together (as a pairing) or within one's own peer group for self protection and the successful rearing of young. Its roots are in baser instincts of the survival of the species and I have great problems in accepting that such sensations are present in any other than life forms with a highly organised central nervous systems. Don't you think we are getting a tad too phyllanthropomorphic ;-) Dave Poole Torquay, Coastal South Devon UK Winter min -2°C. Summer max 34°C. Growing season: March - November |
On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 09:39:21 +0100, Kay
wrote: In article , Peter writes Respond to stimuli is one of the six things that all living things do. I have been trying to remember the other five:- Eat, breathe, reproduce, grow and ???. Judging by myself the sixth thing could be forget! I knew this a year ago when my son was doing GCSEs ;-) But my mind has gone blank. /goes and searches out Revision Guide First - it's seven, not six ;-) Movement reproduction sensitivity nutrition excretion respiration growth What about death? Regards, -- Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk Emails to: showard{who is at}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk |
On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 09:41:26 +0100, Kay
wrote: In article , Stephen Howard writes On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 19:39:33 +0100, Kay wrote: What about Venus fly trap, which ignores a prod with a pencil, but reacts to a live and buzzing fly? That it can discriminate is perhaps down to a array of finely honed sensors. I'd bet it wouldn't do so well with, say, an artist's brush...unless it reacts to a range of frequencies that might be set up by the beating of an insect's wing? No it's a very simply arrangement - it has several hairs, rather like cats' whiskers, and more than one of them has to be touched in sequence to trigger the response. Aha.. that's why I figured the artist's brush would probably trigger a response. Regards, -- Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk Emails to: showard{who is at}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk |
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