Mushrooms in Lawn
 

Can anyone please suggest a way for getting rid of mushrooms in lawn -
thanks

why? I think they're great fun and brighten an otherwise dull splurge of
boring green

anyway, best not to upset the fairies


"Tom C" wrote in message
...
Can anyone please suggest a way for getting rid of mushrooms in lawn -
thanks

"Tom C" wrote in message
...
Can anyone please suggest a way for getting rid of mushrooms in lawn -
thanks


Pick them and fry in hot olive oil.

In article ,
ex WGS Hamm wrote:

Can anyone please suggest a way for getting rid of mushrooms in
lawn - thanks

Pick them and fry in hot olive oil.

Only if you have first *positively* identified them as being an edible
species.

What is it with the British and mushrooms? Everything is viewed with
suspicion and only nasty shrink wrapped buttons are eaten. In France and
Germany whole families go mushrooming. I did as a child.And if there was
anywhere around here where mushrooms grew, I would be out gathering them.
But yes make sure that the mushrooms are not one of the tiny minority which
might make you ill.

As someone who actively prefers many of the wild ones to anything
that you can buy, and used to do that when I lived in an area it was
feasible, may I respond?

There are a few fungi that will really spoil your day. Amanita
phalloides looks very like a field mushroom when young, and will not
make you ill for 12-24 hours afterwards. However, you will probably
die a few days later - as far as I know, there is still no treatment
for the general organ failure that it causes. Oh, and it is fairly
common in grassland, including lawns.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

"Stephen Howard" wrote in message
...

[snip]

I don't think I know any mushroomers who follow the 'Aww, just have
a
go' philosophy. No doubt there's a scientific explanation...

There was that 19th century parson who was an enthusiastic
fungus-eater who sampled everything he found. He always kept a
stomach pump to hand, just in case.

[snip]

Franz

On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:26:16 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:


"Stephen Howard" wrote in message
.. .

[snip]

I don't think I know any mushroomers who follow the 'Aww, just have
a
go' philosophy. No doubt there's a scientific explanation...

There was that 19th century parson who was an enthusiastic
fungus-eater who sampled everything he found. He always kept a
stomach pump to hand, just in case.

I've read some of his accounts ( featured in the book 'Mushroom Magic
- which accompanied the television series of some years ago ).
Apparently he had need of it.

I've suffered a similar fate myself twice, though through an allergic
reaction to an otherwise edible species, and I can say with heartfelt
sincerity that 'much purging, great sweats and loathsome dread' is a
pretty accurate description of what ensued.

Regards,



--
Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations
www.shwoodwind.co.uk
Emails to: showard{whoisat}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk

The message
from "Franz Heymann" contains these words:
"Stephen Howard" wrote in message
...

[snip]

I don't think I know any mushroomers who follow the 'Aww, just have
a
go' philosophy. No doubt there's a scientific explanation...

There was that 19th century parson who was an enthusiastic
fungus-eater who sampled everything he found. He always kept a
stomach pump to hand, just in case.

It is said that if you salt your mushrooms for a day and then boil them
for a long time in brine, you can eat any of them.

However, while it's true that as most of the flavours are oil-soluble
and the proteins remain too, (in the main,) this isn't a practice I've
tried, nor would I recommend anyone else to try it.

Amanita muscaria is *SAID* to be edible if it is peeled first, but I
wouldn't want to try that either - especially as the flavour is said to
be very bitter. Might just as well eat Boletus felleus, which is bitter
without (AFAIK) any poisonous effects.

Had a plateful of bluelegs, mergez (spicy N.African lamb sausage) and
baked spud for lunch today.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

The message
from Stephen Howard contains these words:

I've read some of his accounts ( featured in the book 'Mushroom Magic
- which accompanied the television series of some years ago ).
Apparently he had need of it.

I've suffered a similar fate myself twice, though through an allergic
reaction to an otherwise edible species, and I can say with heartfelt
sincerity that 'much purging, great sweats and loathsome dread' is a
pretty accurate description of what ensued.

If the title was 'Mushroom Magic', perhaps Michael Jordan was
injudicious in publishing one of his books under that title...

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

The message
from (Nick Maclaren) contains these words:

| Fortunately, A. phalloides is uncommon.

Not as much as all that. When I lived in Wiltshire, I found it
fairly often. For comparison, I have ONCE seen a giant puffball.
I agree that it is probably only locally fairly common.

My experience is the opposite - I sometimes have to give away, cook and
freeze (or preserve in oil) giant puffballs because I have so many.

I've only seen A. phalloides a couple of times. (In fact, I've seen
Volvariella surrecta more often, and when I sent a specimen to the
British Museum they were over the moon - no-one there had seen a fresh
specimen... Ted Ellis, OTOH, knew where there were several more clones
in Norfolk alone.)

BTW, part of e-mail from Kew:

--------======== Quote ========--------

The botanist who identified it said it
was an interesting Solanum that he had not come across before. It is
Solanum villosum subsp. miniatum according to Stace's New Flora of
the British Isles or Solanum luteum subsp. alatum according to Flora
Europaea. They are synonyms and the common name is red or hairy
nightshade. The main species was introduced from southern Europe
either via wool, bird seed or oilseed. Another subspecies was
introduced in the Nottingham area for pharmaceutical use (possibly by
Boots). The berries are yellow orange or red. It is an infrequent casual
in southern England. I have kept the plant alive to ripen some of the
berries to grow on next year.


Thank you for making the enquiry - we've all learnt something from it!

--------======== Unquote ========--------

Next year I shall be trying to cross it with garden huckleberries - I
tried some of the berries and they were more pleasant than S. nigrum,
and then the rest of the pulp from the ripe berried of two plants and
suffered no ill-effects.

I have a dessertspoon-or-so of seeds. Golden Huckleberries ahoy! (After
careful testing, innit.)

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

ex WGS Hamm wrote:
[...]
Woe is me. Why cannot you find a poisonous mushroom when you want
to.

It's this government: ask any farmer. It's the last government: ask
any farmer. It's the government before that: ask any farmer. It's
the...

Mike.

The message
from "Mike Lyle" contains these words:
ex WGS Hamm wrote:
[...]
Woe is me. Why cannot you find a poisonous mushroom when you want
to.

It's this government: ask any farmer. It's the last government: ask
any farmer. It's the government before that: ask any farmer. It's
the...

....last government, ask the one following it...

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

On 5/11/04 0:46, in article , "Janet Galpin"
wrote:

snip
I think there are probably more people who *don't* eat perfectly edible
mushrooms just in case, than those who rush into eating poisonous ones.
I have quite a few mushrooms this year and have been trying to identify
them positively enough to take the plunge and eat them. I know they're
not Amanita phalloides because I've taken their spore print which is
brown rather than white. I'm now wondering, having eliminated Amanita
phalloides, how likely it is that mushrooms which look very like rather
thin versions of shop-bought mushrooms, with pale brown gills and brown
spore prints, could be anything other than edible.
Janet G

We have some on one lawn at the moment which are small and round and
chestnut coloured with touches of cream or vice versa. They're very pretty
but I have no idea what they are. I think there used to be an oak tree
there years ago but it came crashing down in a storm in 1990. And no,
they're not truffles before anyone decides to get the pig out. ;-)
--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove the weeds to email me)

The message
from Janet Galpin contains these words:

I think there are probably more people who *don't* eat perfectly edible
mushrooms just in case, than those who rush into eating poisonous ones.
I have quite a few mushrooms this year and have been trying to identify
them positively enough to take the plunge and eat them. I know they're
not Amanita phalloides because I've taken their spore print which is
brown rather than white. I'm now wondering, having eliminated Amanita
phalloides, how likely it is that mushrooms which look very like rather
thin versions of shop-bought mushrooms, with pale brown gills and brown
spore prints, could be anything other than edible.

Very easily, I'm afraid. Even the genus Agaricus (in which your
shop-bought mushrooms reside) has at least three indiginous species
which you'd be wise to avoid.

I'd advise you to get a good book, such as Roger Phillips' excellent
'Mushrooms and Other Fungi of Great Britain and Europe', and it's not
too late to look in your local paper or library and find expert-led
fungus forays starting from your area.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

The message
from Sacha contains these words:

We have some on one lawn at the moment which are small and round and
chestnut coloured with touches of cream or vice versa. They're very pretty
but I have no idea what they are. I think there used to be an oak tree
there years ago but it came crashing down in a storm in 1990. And no,
they're not truffles before anyone decides to get the pig out. ;-)

Jpeg!

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

On 5/11/04 10:12, in article ,
"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote:

The message
from Sacha contains these words:

We have some on one lawn at the moment which are small and round and
chestnut coloured with touches of cream or vice versa. They're very pretty
but I have no idea what they are. I think there used to be an oak tree
there years ago but it came crashing down in a storm in 1990. And no,
they're not truffles before anyone decides to get the pig out. ;-)

Jpeg!

Is that a comment or an invitation? ;-)
--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove the weeds to email me)

In article ,
Sacha wrote:
On 5/11/04 0:46, in article , "Janet Galpin"
wrote:

I think there are probably more people who *don't* eat perfectly edible
mushrooms just in case, than those who rush into eating poisonous ones.
I have quite a few mushrooms this year and have been trying to identify
them positively enough to take the plunge and eat them. I know they're
not Amanita phalloides because I've taken their spore print which is
brown rather than white. I'm now wondering, having eliminated Amanita
phalloides, how likely it is that mushrooms which look very like rather
thin versions of shop-bought mushrooms, with pale brown gills and brown
spore prints, could be anything other than edible.

With brown spores, I don't think that any are lethal - though there
is a risk of being sensitive to dubious ones. Let's assume that you
have checked for a ring and no volva (i.e. they are Agaricus a.k.a.
Psalliota). As Jaques d'Alltrades says, there are several slightly
poisonous ones (bellyache time), but only the yellow staining
mushroom is worse. However, remember that horse mushrooms (edible
and good) stain yellow, slightly.

We have some on one lawn at the moment which are small and round and
chestnut coloured with touches of cream or vice versa. They're very pretty
but I have no idea what they are. I think there used to be an oak tree
there years ago but it came crashing down in a storm in 1990. And no,
they're not truffles before anyone decides to get the pig out. ;-)

There are many like that. Puffballs fit that description, as do many
others.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

"Janet Galpin" wrote in message
...
I think there are probably more people who *don't* eat perfectly edible
mushrooms just in case, than those who rush into eating poisonous ones.
I have quite a few mushrooms this year and have been trying to identify
them positively enough to take the plunge and eat them. I know they're
not Amanita phalloides because I've taken their spore print which is
brown rather than white. I'm now wondering, having eliminated Amanita
phalloides, how likely it is that mushrooms which look very like rather
thin versions of shop-bought mushrooms, with pale brown gills and brown
spore prints, could be anything other than edible.

In France, one can go to the local chemist with your 'shrooms and he will
tell you what they are and if they are safe to eat. Most civilised I say.

"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote in message
k...
The message
from Janet Galpin contains these words:

I think there are probably more people who *don't* eat perfectly edible
mushrooms just in case, than those who rush into eating poisonous ones.
I have quite a few mushrooms this year and have been trying to identify
them positively enough to take the plunge and eat them. I know they're
not Amanita phalloides because I've taken their spore print which is
brown rather than white. I'm now wondering, having eliminated Amanita
phalloides, how likely it is that mushrooms which look very like rather
thin versions of shop-bought mushrooms, with pale brown gills and brown
spore prints, could be anything other than edible.

Very easily, I'm afraid. Even the genus Agaricus (in which your
shop-bought mushrooms reside) has at least three indiginous species
which you'd be wise to avoid.

I'd advise you to get a good book, such as Roger Phillips' excellent
'Mushrooms and Other Fungi of Great Britain and Europe', and it's not
too late to look in your local paper or library and find expert-led
fungus forays starting from your area.

For anyone interested in eatying wild mushrooms, I can highly recommend
www.mycologue.com
The chap who runs it knows his mushrooms alright and sells everything
mushroom related including some very good books.

The message
from Gwenhyffar Milgi contains these words:

My experience is the opposite - I sometimes have to give away, cook and
freeze (or preserve in oil) giant puffballs because I have so many.

Oh..... where are you???

Norfolk. They grow on the watermeadows leading down to the River
Waveney, and other places i know.

It's been years since I had giant puffball.
They used to be common in the area of The Netherlands where I lived,
but it's been 15 years since I've seen one there. I've not seen one in
North Wales where I am at the moment, don't know if they grow here.

Don't know, but you should find a lot of other good edible ones there.

I loved them thinly sliced and then fried in a bit of butter.

Try frying them in butter, and while still hot, sloshing them through
batter and then bunging them back into the pan. (or deep-frying them.)

I'm gonna go sulk now.

You'll have a long one then: they won't reappear until July or thereabouts...

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

The message
from Gwenhyffar Milgi contains these words:
On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 23:37:12 GMT, Jaques d'Alltrades
wrote:
The message
from Gwenhyffar Milgi contains these words:

I'm gonna go sulk now.

You'll have a long one then: they won't reappear until July or
thereabouts...

I was just wondering if you can grow them. You can grow other
mushrooms, why not puffballs? I've googled on "grow kit", but can't
find puffball in there. Anyone know of somewhere they have puffball
growkits?

Most mushrooms aren't suitable for cultivation. Giant puffballs would
need a *VERY* big box, even if you could do it.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

Jaques d'Alltrades wrote in message . uk...
The message
from "Franz Heymann" contains these words:
"Stephen Howard" wrote in message
...

[snip]

I don't think I know any mushroomers who follow the 'Aww, just have
a
go' philosophy. No doubt there's a scientific explanation...

There was that 19th century parson who was an enthusiastic
fungus-eater who sampled everything he found. He always kept a
stomach pump to hand, just in case.

It is said that if you salt your mushrooms for a day and then boil them
for a long time in brine, you can eat any of them.


However, while it's true that as most of the flavours are oil-soluble
and the proteins remain too, (in the main,) this isn't a practice I've
tried, nor would I recommend anyone else to try it.

Amanita muscaria is *SAID* to be edible if it is peeled first, but I
wouldn't want to try that either - especially as the flavour is said to
be very bitter. Might just as well eat Boletus felleus, which is bitter
without (AFAIK) any poisonous effects.

Had a plateful of bluelegs, mergez (spicy N.African lamb sausage) and
baked spud for lunch today.

Sorry to go back to basics but I have had many Mushrooms on my lawn
and never bothered with them until they have gone what could be eating
them ? The garden is quite secluded so no humans ase involved. One day
they are present the next clean as a wistle could it be hedgehogs?

On 6 Nov 2004 03:12:50 -0800, (Gerry
McKenzie) wrote:

snip

Sorry to go back to basics but I have had many Mushrooms on my lawn
and never bothered with them until they have gone what could be eating
them ? The garden is quite secluded so no humans ase involved. One day
they are present the next clean as a wistle could it be hedgehogs?

It's unlikely to be the hedgehogs, their preferred diet is more
carnivorous in nature.

Deer seem to like fungus, and I suspect that rabbits will have a
nibble too - but I think it most likely that it's down to slugs and
snails.
Certain species of fungus seem to act like a magnet for them, and
given the structure of a mushroom it doesn't take long for half a
dozen slugs and snails to eat the thing right to the ground.

Could be your neighbours though ;)

Regards,



--
Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations
www.shwoodwind.co.uk
Emails to: showard{whoisat}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk

The message
from Stephen Howard contains these words:

Could be your neighbours though ;)

That was my first thought.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

Noticed this growing on a couple of silver birch trees down the road from
where I live.
http://www.g6csy.net/mycology/myco-005.jpg
Apparently they are :
Piptoporus betulinus
Birch Polypore
Class: Gasteromycetes
Order: Polyporales
Family: Coriolaceae
Genus: Piptoporus
and they are edible. I'm off to get some tomorrow. Yum yum.

The message
from "ex WGS Hamm" contains these words:

Noticed this growing on a couple of silver birch trees down the road from
where I live.
http://www.g6csy.net/mycology/myco-005.jpg
Apparently they are :
Piptoporus betulinus
Birch Polypore
Class: Gasteromycetes
Order: Polyporales
Family: Coriolaceae
Genus: Piptoporus
and they are edible. I'm off to get some tomorrow. Yum yum.

And who told you they were edible? You'd better sharpen your teeth and
work-up your jaw muscles: they're not (also) called Razor Strop Fungus
for nothing.

I don't think you'll be saying "Yum!" tomorrow!

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote in message
k...
The message
from "ex WGS Hamm" contains these
words:

Noticed this growing on a couple of silver birch trees down the road
from
where I live.
http://www.g6csy.net/mycology/myco-005.jpg
Apparently they are :
Piptoporus betulinus
Birch Polypore
Class: Gasteromycetes
Order: Polyporales
Family: Coriolaceae
Genus: Piptoporus
and they are edible. I'm off to get some tomorrow. Yum yum.

And who told you they were edible?
The website link I posted?

You'd better sharpen your teeth and
work-up your jaw muscles: they're not (also) called Razor Strop Fungus
for nothing.
Put in a stew for a couple of hours I am sure they would have been fine.
However as the blasted car wouldn't start again, I never got to get them.

The message
from "ex WGS Hamm" contains these words:

And who told you they were edible?
The website link I posted?

You'd better sharpen your teeth and
work-up your jaw muscles: they're not (also) called Razor Strop Fungus
for nothing.
Put in a stew for a couple of hours I am sure they would have been fine.
However as the blasted car wouldn't start again, I never got to get them.

Trust me on this - they aren't edible. They won't poison you though, but
balsa wood is just as tasty, and a lot easier to chew.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

On 4 Nov 2004 16:53:10 GMT, (Nick Maclaren) wrote:


| There has been a serum available since (at least) just post-war.
| L'institut Pasteur used to have a light plane always ready to go to
| anywhere - which included UK. (Mushrooms & Toadstools, Collins NN
| series, Dr. John Ramsbottom)
|
| Whether in these days of scheduled flights this is still the case, I
| don't know, but as long as a diagnosis is made within reasonable time,
| it's no longer all doom and gloom.
|
| The trouble is the diagnosis - after all evidence has been passed or
| puked, and the usual sufferers can only say "It looked like a mushroom
| to me."

I believe that the problem is that the serum will help only if
administered early, and that the symptoms emerge late and few UK
doctors would recognise the symptoms. By the time that the
diagnosis is made, it has already caused serious and irreversible
organ failure.

| Fortunately, A. phalloides is uncommon.

Not as much as all that. When I lived in Wiltshire, I found it
fairly often. For comparison, I have ONCE seen a giant puffball.
I agree that it is probably only locally fairly common.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

As this was originally about lawn mushrooms and what follows is
undiluted science I offer an apolgy for being a little off topic and
indigestible but I think the ungarnished science is a salutary
reminder. There is no magic serum or curative treatment just some that
tip the odds more in your favour. The following is the current
published medical data and basically the treatment for Amanita
poisoning is that which any big hopsital with a renal unit ,
transfusion unit and ITU would offer. The last resort is a liver
transplant. with lifelong immunosupression to follow.

These are taken direct from something called Medline which is a
listing of all published medical research each year. It is available
to the public as PubMed.


Plasmapheresis in the treatment of Amanita phalloides poisoning: II. A
review and recommendations. [Review] [48 refs] Therapeutic Apheresis.
4(4):308-12, 2000 Aug.

"Amanita phalloides poisoning is the most common cause of lethal
mushroom poisoning (lethality 20% in adults, 50% in children).
However, there is no standard treatment strategy and no antidote
against the ensuing hepatic failure. This review of 14 investigations
published over the last 20 years shows that the introduction of
detoxification techniques, in particular the use of plasmapheresis, in
combination with supportive therapy to prevent the absorption of
aminitine toxins into blood, produced a substantial reduction in
mortality. The main complications in using these techniques include
infections and coagulation disorders. Because of the latency period in
the development of symptoms, treatment should begin on the first
suspicion that an intoxication is present. The best therapeutic
results can be expected when the detoxification techniques are applied
in combination with conservative therapies within the first 36--48 h.
Using this approach, mortality rates in some recent studies have been
below 10%. [References: 48]"

Plasmapheresis = a technique used for removing substances from blood
plasma in a living person. It uses a machine available in most big
transfusion centres

American Journal of Gastroenterology. 96(11):3195-8, 2001 Nov.
Mushroom poisoning from the genus Amanita is a medical emergency, with
Amanita phalloides being the most common species. The typical symptoms
of nausea, vomiting, abdominal pain, and diarrhea are nonspecific and
can be mistaken for gastroenteritis. If not adequately treated,
hepatic and renal failure may ensue within several days of ingestion.
In this case series, patients poisoned with Amanita virosa are
described with a spectrum of clinical presentations and outcomes
ranging from complete recovery to fulminant hepatic failure. Although
there are no controlled clinical trials, a few anecdotal studies
provide the basis for regimens recommended to treat Amanita poisoning.
Use of i.v. penicillin G is supported by most reports. Silibinin,
although preferred over penicillin, is not easily available in the
United States. In those with acute liver failure, liver
transplantation can be life saving. [References: 12]


Journal of Toxicology - Clinical Toxicology. 40(6):715-57, 2002.
BACKGROUND: Amatoxin poisoning is a medical emergency characterized by
a long incubation time lag, gastrointestinal and hepatotoxic phases,
coma, and death. This mushroom intoxication is ascribed to 35
amatoxin-containing species belonging to three genera: Amanita,
Galerina, and Lepiota. The major amatoxins, the alpha-, beta-, and
gamma-amanitins, are bicyclic octapeptide derivatives that damage the
liver and kidney via irreversible binding to RNA polymerase II.
METHODS: The mycology and clinical syndrome of amatoxin poisoning are
reviewed. Clinical data from 2108 hospitalized amatoxin poisoning
exposures as reported in the medical literature from North America and
Europe over the last 20 years were compiled. Preliminary medical care,
supportive measures, specific treatments used singly or in
combination, and liver transplantation were characterized. Specific
treatments consisted of detoxication procedures (e.g., toxin removal
from bile and urine, and extracorporeal purification) and
administration of drugs. Chemotherapy included benzylpenicillin or
other beta-lactam antibiotics, silymarin complex, thioctic acid,
antioxidant drugs, hormones and steroids administered singly, or more
usually, in combination. Supportive measures alone and 10 specific
treatment regimens were analyzed relative to mortality. RESULTS:
Benzylpenicillin (Penicillin G) alone and in association was the
mostfrequently utilized chemotherapy but showed little efficacy. No
benefit was found for the use of thioctic acid or steroids. Chi-square
statistical comparison of survivors and dead vs. treated individuals
supported silybin, administered either as mono-chemotherapy or in drug
combination and N-acetylcysteine as mono-chemotherapy as the most
effective therapeutic modes. Future clinical research should focus on
confirming the efficacy of silybin, N-acetylcysteine, and detoxication
procedures. [References: 420]

Silybin = experimental drug which ( roughly speaking )
increases the activity of the livers detoxification mechanisms

I would echo those who have said go an learn properly best of all from
an expert. A friend of my parents was looking at a mushroom
suspicious that it was Death Cap. Another walker looked and said it
was related but was good eating. He knew his stuff it was good
eating. Mushroom picking is a pleasure but not essential to life,
getting it wrong is potentialy fatal.

In article , Neil wrote:

Plasmapheresis in the treatment of Amanita phalloides poisoning: II. A
review and recommendations. [Review] [48 refs] Therapeutic Apheresis.
4(4):308-12, 2000 Aug.

Thanks for that. It is always useful to have my (sometimes ancient)
knowledge updated - in this case, it was still more-or-less correct.
That is one fungus that you really DON'T want to eat by mistake.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

The message
from (Neil) contains these words:

As this was originally about lawn mushrooms and what follows is
undiluted science I offer an apolgy for being a little off topic and
indigestible but I think the ungarnished science is a salutary
reminder. There is no magic serum or curative treatment just some that
tip the odds more in your favour. The following is the current
published medical data and basically the treatment for Amanita
poisoning is that which any big hopsital with a renal unit ,
transfusion unit and ITU would offer. The last resort is a liver
transplant. with lifelong immunosupression to follow.

Your quotes omitted one of the most effective adjuncts to the drug
therapy - sugar.

Larger than normal intake of sugars can tip the balance between survival
or thud!: if they can be kept down. Treatment should include
intravenous injection of 20 ml glucose in normal saline solution, four
or five times a day.

Mushrooms and Toadstools - Dr. John Ramsbottom, Collins NewNaturalist
Series, Ch 5, Poisonous and Edible Fungi: 1

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

The message
from (Nick Maclaren) contains these words:
In article , Neil
wrote:
Plasmapheresis in the treatment of Amanita phalloides poisoning: II. A
review and recommendations. [Review] [48 refs] Therapeutic Apheresis.
4(4):308-12, 2000 Aug.

Thanks for that. It is always useful to have my (sometimes ancient)
knowledge updated - in this case, it was still more-or-less correct.
That is one fungus that you really DON'T want to eat by mistake.

It is also one fungus you don't want to eat on purpose...

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 14:34:07 GMT, Jaques d'Alltrades
wrote:

Your quotes omitted one of the most effective adjuncts to the drug
therapy - sugar.

Larger than normal intake of sugars can tip the balance between survival
or thud!: if they can be kept down. Treatment should include
intravenous injection of 20 ml glucose in normal saline solution, four
or five times a day.

Mushrooms and Toadstools - Dr. John Ramsbottom, Collins NewNaturalist
Series, Ch 5, Poisonous and Edible Fungi: 1



Omitted for one reason there is no evidence to support claims for its
efficacy.

Any one on ITU would almost certainly receive glucose as a routine
infusion

By the way you don't need ( indeed there are reasons not to) mix
glucose with saline.

Normal Saline solution is 0.9%. ie 9 grammes of sodium choride in 1
litre of water. This is a standard drip mix. Glucose is also used
routinely in drips at 5% concentration. You can give 2 litres of
glucose 5% per day with 1 litre of saline 0.9% as a routine in many
situations. To mean anything the 20ml of glucose would need to be at a
defined concentration, Hospitals routinely use 5% 10% 20% and 50%
strenghts of glucose.

500mL of 50% per day gives 250g of carohydrate which is not too far
from what many take each day.

Neil

In article ,
(Neil) writes:
|
| Normal Saline solution is 0.9%. ie 9 grammes of sodium choride in 1
| litre of water. This is a standard drip mix. ...

Are you sure? Just that? No potassium or anything else?


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

The message
from (Neil) contains these words:
On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 14:34:07 GMT, Jaques d'Alltrades
wrote:

Your quotes omitted one of the most effective adjuncts to the drug
therapy - sugar.

Larger than normal intake of sugars can tip the balance between survival
or thud!: if they can be kept down. Treatment should include
intravenous injection of 20 ml glucose in normal saline solution, four
or five times a day.

Mushrooms and Toadstools - Dr. John Ramsbottom, Collins NewNaturalist
Series, Ch 5, Poisonous and Edible Fungi: 1



Omitted for one reason there is no evidence to support claims for its
efficacy.

On the contrary, the only ancient remedies which had any sort of success
are those which featured sugar of some sort. (Like seven rabbits' brains
and three stomachs chopped small, and made into balls with honey or jam
- the theory being that as rabbits could eat a human's lethal dose there
must be something in the rabbits' stomachs and brains which neutralises
the poison(s). The honey or jam was to help it go down, but in restoring
some of the sugar which the liver under attack wasn't providing, it gave
some credence to the antidote hypothesis)

Latterly, intravenous sugars are (unless I'm *VERY* out of date) always
administered to restore the blood-sugar levels to normal...

Any one on ITU would almost certainly receive glucose as a routine
infusion

....rather than just routinely.

By the way you don't need ( indeed there are reasons not to) mix
glucose with saline.

Maybe other sugars are used now, or other preservative. I *WAS* quoting
from the (presumably first edition) 1959 impression.

Normal Saline solution is 0.9%. ie 9 grammes of sodium choride in 1
litre of water. This is a standard drip mix. Glucose is also used
routinely in drips at 5% concentration. You can give 2 litres of
glucose 5% per day with 1 litre of saline 0.9% as a routine in many
situations.
_______

To mean anything the 20ml of glucose would need to be at a
defined concentration, Hospitals routinely use 5% 10% 20% and 50%
strenghts of glucose.

Sorry - while copying that I missed out the 4% (glucose)

500mL of 50% per day gives 250g of carohydrate which is not too far
from what many take each day.

I think we got to this point because someone suggested that there was
still no treatment - no sure-fire cure, I'd agree, but treatments which
improve the chances of survival there are.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

On 9 Nov 2004 17:17:19 GMT, (Nick Maclaren) wrote:



| Normal Saline solution is 0.9%. ie 9 grammes of sodium choride in 1
| litre of water. This is a standard drip mix. ...

Are you sure? Just that? No potassium or anything else?


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.


Fluid balance is an art form as well as a science. A typical adult in
the UK needs about 90 millimole of sodium per day and about 80 of
potassium and enough water to replace what goes out as urine plus
sweat losses (anything from 500mL to 5000 mL perday depending on the
situation).

The problem is solutions that are not "normal" ie same osmotic
strength as cells tend to cause blood problems. ( You can show this to
children using raw potato cut into chips all the same length put one
into pure water and one into a strong salt solution and the water one
swells and lenghtens the one in saline shrinks and becomes floppy. At
0,9% no change).

The upshot of this is set strength tend to be used. Glucose is
metabolised off so it provides water the glucose provides the right
concentration without leaving a residue so to speak. You are quite
right potassium is needed but in the short term ( 24 hrs) you can do
without. After that it is added typically 20 -40 millimole per litre
of fluid.

There are much fancier mixes ( listen on ER for "lactated Ringer's
solution" ) However in the UK glucose and saline are the main ones
with sodium bicarbonate as a backup.

For intravenous feeding you get a huge mix tha tis highly complex and
looks like milk.

Regards

Neil

On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:09:15 GMT, Jaques d'Alltrades
wrote:

The honey or jam was to help it go down, but in restoring
some of the sugar which the liver under attack wasn't providing, it gave
some credence to the antidote hypothesis)

Latterly, intravenous sugars are (unless I'm *VERY* out of date) always
administered to restore the blood-sugar levels to normal...

People with liver failure are very vulnerable to hypoglycaemia and
this is watched for very very closely. Treatment is usually by a
steady infusion of 10% glucose with higher concentrations as
needed.Intermittent boluses are used but only when needed not as a
regular item.


Any one on ITU would almost certainly receive glucose as a routine
infusion

...rather than just routinely.

By the way you don't need ( indeed there are reasons not to) mix
glucose with saline.

Maybe other sugars are used now, or other preservative. I *WAS* quoting
from the (presumably first edition) 1959 impression.

The difference between fluid management and ITU care from 1959 and the
present day is as big as the diferences between the PC you sre sitting
in front of now and the one you would have used in 1960. Glucose ( AKA
dextrose ) is virtually the only one used. Mannitol very rarely for
special reasons but nowt else



Sorry - while copying that I missed out the 4% (glucose)

4% glucose 0.18% saline is mainly used in paediatrics for volume
reasons it means in kids you can match salt given to the childs size.


I think we got to this point because someone suggested that there was
still no treatment - no sure-fire cure, I'd agree, but treatments which
improve the chances of survival there are.

Improve survival yes but my point is these treatments are non specific
and as such very chancy. If you are poisoned with nerve gas ( or
insecticide) you get pralidoxime which is a direct antidote. Morphine
you get naloxone, paracetamol N-acetylcysteamine and so on ( but for
very few more).

With Amanita poisoning you get those things which help your liver and
kidneys cope until they heal themselves. Your survival hinges much
more on time taken to recognise the poison than on a "cure". To call
this a treatment is to elevate routine supportive measures which I
agree are vital and successful to the level of an antidote they are
not.

Neil

In article , Neil wrote:

Fluid balance is an art form as well as a science. A typical adult in
the UK needs about 90 millimole of sodium per day and about 80 of
potassium and enough water to replace what goes out as urine plus
sweat losses (anything from 500mL to 5000 mL perday depending on the
situation).

The problem is solutions that are not "normal" ie same osmotic
strength as cells tend to cause blood problems. ( You can show this to
children using raw potato cut into chips all the same length put one
into pure water and one into a strong salt solution and the water one
swells and lenghtens the one in saline shrinks and becomes floppy. At
0,9% no change).

The upshot of this is set strength tend to be used. Glucose is
metabolised off so it provides water the glucose provides the right
concentration without leaving a residue so to speak. You are quite
right potassium is needed but in the short term ( 24 hrs) you can do
without. After that it is added typically 20 -40 millimole per litre
of fluid.

My understanding is that normal saline as used in hospitals contains
potassium as well as sodium, and perhaps magnesium and calcium as
well, because it is more general and safer.

For example, if someone is admitted suffering from dehydration and
is actually short of potassium, it is NOT good to rehydrate them with
a potassium-free saline! You need a blood analysis to be certain,
and there often isn't time.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

The message
from (Neil) contains these words:
On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:09:15 GMT, Jaques d'Alltrades
wrote:

The honey or jam was to help it go down, but in restoring
some of the sugar which the liver under attack wasn't providing, it gave
some credence to the antidote hypothesis)

Latterly, intravenous sugars are (unless I'm *VERY* out of date) always
administered to restore the blood-sugar levels to normal...

People with liver failure are very vulnerable to hypoglycaemia and
this is watched for very very closely. Treatment is usually by a
steady infusion of 10% glucose with higher concentrations as
needed.Intermittent boluses are used but only when needed not as a
regular item.

Perhaps I didn't make it clear that this was a *VERY* elderly 'cure'.

/snip/

Improve survival yes but my point is these treatments are non specific
and as such very chancy. If you are poisoned with nerve gas ( or
insecticide) you get pralidoxime which is a direct antidote. Morphine
you get naloxone, paracetamol N-acetylcysteamine and so on ( but for
very few more).

But we aren't discussing general panaceas - the discussion was very
specific. I quote from your earlier post:
----------------------
As this was originally about lawn mushrooms and what follows is
undiluted science I offer an apolgy for being a little off topic and
indigestible but I think the ungarnished science is a salutary
reminder. There is no magic serum or curative treatment just some that
tip the odds more in your favour. The following is the current
published medical data and basically the treatment for Amanita
poisoning is that which any big hopsital with a renal unit ,
transfusion unit and ITU would offer. The last resort is a liver
transplant. with lifelong immunosupression to follow.
------------------------

And that's where the sugar bit took off.


With Amanita poisoning you get those things which help your liver and
kidneys cope until they heal themselves. Your survival hinges much
more on time taken to recognise the poison than on a "cure". To call
this a treatment is to elevate routine supportive measures which I
agree are vital and successful to the level of an antidote they are
not.

I don't think we differ there.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

The message
from (Neil) contains these words:

Fluid balance is an art form as well as a science. A typical adult in
the UK needs about 90 millimole of sodium per day and about 80 of
potassium and enough water to replace what goes out as urine plus
sweat losses (anything from 500mL to 5000 mL perday depending on the
situation).

The problem is solutions that are not "normal" ie same osmotic
strength as cells tend to cause blood problems. ( You can show this to
children using raw potato cut into chips all the same length put one
into pure water and one into a strong salt solution and the water one
swells and lenghtens the one in saline shrinks and becomes floppy. At
0,9% no change).

In the chemical sense, a normal solution is one of one gramme-equivalent
of dissolved substance to a litre of water.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

On 9 Nov 2004 21:04:01 GMT, (Nick Maclaren) wrote:



My understanding is that normal saline as used in hospitals contains
potassium as well as sodium, and perhaps magnesium and calcium as
well, because it is more general and safer.

Absolutely not. Calcium and magnesium are rarely given. If you looked
on a normal UK hospital ward you would find glucose 5% and 0.9 %
sodium choride. Some bags would have added potassium. You would
perhaps find 50% and 10% glucose and maybe 1.4% sodium bicarbonate.
anything else is a rarity. Magnesium and calcium would be present in
TPN ( Total Parenteral Nutrition) which you can in theory live on for
months or years.



For example, if someone is admitted suffering from dehydration and
is actually short of potassium, it is NOT good to rehydrate them with
a potassium-free saline! You need a blood analysis to be certain,
and there often isn't time.

If needed any AED should be able to get a reading of sodium, potassium
and a full blood gas analysis ( pH and oxygen/CO2 levels) as fast as
the sample can be run to the lab and very likely done in the same room
as the patient if they are in the resuscitation bay. Glucose readings
take 1 minute at the bedside or 5 minutes in the lab if you want high
precision.