Support your local urban fox.
 

"Joe" wrote in message
...
For those of you who have an interest in the urban fox.

http://www.thefoxproject.fsnet.co.uk/

Joe
.
Yes I am interested but only in how to get rid of them. They just killed
my ducks by biting their heads off, didn't eat them just killed them for
sport. I do hope we are not headed for the Spanish experience where
people leave poison bait out which is a danger to domestic dogs who have
to be muzzled or kept on a lead to prevent them form eating the bait. I
have dogs so this is not an option so I guess I will have to look for
someone with a gun.

On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 08:30:16 GMT, "Diane Epps"
wrote:


"Joe" wrote in message=20
.. .
For those of you who have an interest in the urban fox.

http://www.thefoxproject.fsnet.co.uk/

Joe
.
Yes I am interested but only in how to get rid of them. They just =
killed=20
my ducks

Why did you not lock the ducks up thereby protecting them?

by biting their heads off, didn't eat them just killed them for=20
sport.

=46oxes have no interest in sport. They kill the lot instinctively so
that there is plenty for the larder.

I do hope we are not headed for the Spanish experience where=20
people leave poison bait out which is a danger to domestic dogs who =
have=20
to be muzzled or kept on a lead to prevent them form eating the bait.

This already happens and often here.

I=20
have dogs so this is not an option so I guess I will have to look for=20
someone with a gun.

Or you could just try and look after your ducks properly! I dont
suppose you would let your children out without protection? If you are
unable to look after animals you should not have them, dont blame
foxes for your failures.

"Haggus the orriblulus" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 08:30:16 GMT, "Diane Epps"
wrote:


"Joe" wrote in message
.. .
For those of you who have an interest in the urban fox.

http://www.thefoxproject.fsnet.co.uk/

Joe
.
Yes I am interested but only in how to get rid of them. They just
killed
my ducks

Why did you not lock the ducks up thereby protecting them?

by biting their heads off, didn't eat them just killed them for
sport.

Foxes have no interest in sport. They kill the lot instinctively so
that there is plenty for the larder.

I do hope we are not headed for the Spanish experience where
people leave poison bait out which is a danger to domestic dogs who have
to be muzzled or kept on a lead to prevent them form eating the bait.

This already happens and often here.

I
have dogs so this is not an option so I guess I will have to look for
someone with a gun.

Or you could just try and look after your ducks properly! I dont
suppose you would let your children out without protection? If you are
unable to look after animals you should not have them, dont blame
foxes for your failures.

You are obviously an expert in animal husbandry please let me know how I
should look after my ducks properly.

On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 10:18:07 GMT, "Diane Epps"
wrote:


"Haggus the orriblulus" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 08:30:16 GMT, "Diane Epps"
wrote:


"Joe" wrote in message
. ..
For those of you who have an interest in the urban fox.

http://www.thefoxproject.fsnet.co.uk/

Joe
.
Yes I am interested but only in how to get rid of them. They just
killed
my ducks

Why did you not lock the ducks up thereby protecting them?

by biting their heads off, didn't eat them just killed them for
sport.

Foxes have no interest in sport. They kill the lot instinctively so
that there is plenty for the larder.

I do hope we are not headed for the Spanish experience where
people leave poison bait out which is a danger to domestic dogs who have
to be muzzled or kept on a lead to prevent them form eating the bait.

This already happens and often here.

I
have dogs so this is not an option so I guess I will have to look for
someone with a gun.

Or you could just try and look after your ducks properly! I dont
suppose you would let your children out without protection? If you are
unable to look after animals you should not have them, dont blame
foxes for your failures.

You are obviously an expert in animal husbandry please let me know how I
should look after my ducks properly.


Far better you tell him what you actually do to protect your animals?

Please also learn to post a reply properly so that we know who said
what.

On 20/11/04 8:30, in article ,
"Diane Epps" wrote:


"Joe" wrote in message
...
For those of you who have an interest in the urban fox.

http://www.thefoxproject.fsnet.co.uk/

Joe
.
Yes I am interested but only in how to get rid of them. They just killed
my ducks by biting their heads off, didn't eat them just killed them for
sport. I do hope we are not headed for the Spanish experience where
people leave poison bait out which is a danger to domestic dogs who have
to be muzzled or kept on a lead to prevent them form eating the bait. I
have dogs so this is not an option so I guess I will have to look for
someone with a gun.


You could move to Scotland. They're killing more foxes there now than they
were before hunting was banned in that country. Of course, they're shooting
them so the foxes that aren't killed outright will die horrible, lingering,
painful deaths from gangrene.
--

Sacha
(remove the weeds for email)

On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 11:51:48 +0000, Sacha
wrote:

On 20/11/04 8:30, in article ,
"Diane Epps" wrote:


"Joe" wrote in message
...
For those of you who have an interest in the urban fox.

http://www.thefoxproject.fsnet.co.uk/

Joe
.
Yes I am interested but only in how to get rid of them. They just killed
my ducks by biting their heads off, didn't eat them just killed them for
sport. I do hope we are not headed for the Spanish experience where
people leave poison bait out which is a danger to domestic dogs who have
to be muzzled or kept on a lead to prevent them form eating the bait. I
have dogs so this is not an option so I guess I will have to look for
someone with a gun.


You could move to Scotland. They're killing more foxes there now than they
were before hunting was banned in that country.

That's quite untrue pro hunt propoganda.

Of course, they're shooting
them so the foxes that aren't killed outright will die horrible, lingering,
painful deaths from gangrene.

Actually the groups who carry out culls are supposed to be marksmen
and professional at that. Perhaps you are suggesting we should expose
these lies too? Please provide proof for that claim.

On 20/11/04 12:20, in article , "Dorian"
wrote:

snip

Actually the groups who carry out culls are supposed to be marksmen
and professional at that. Perhaps you are suggesting we should expose
these lies too? Please provide proof for that claim.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4027461.stm
--

Sacha
(remove the weeds for email)

On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 12:55:06 +0000, Sacha
wrote:

On 20/11/04 12:20, in article , "Dorian"
wrote:

snip

Actually the groups who carry out culls are supposed to be marksmen
and professional at that. Perhaps you are suggesting we should expose
these lies too? Please provide proof for that claim.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4027461.stm

Try not to take seriously the freaks with an agenda.

Do you have any none "pro hunt" proof for this? anything serious will
do!

"Diane Epps" wrote in message
...

[snip]

Since your newsreader did not insert the usual attribution marks at
the beginning of the lines, the thread has now become so garbled that
it is no longer worth reading.

Franz

"Sacha" wrote in message
k...
On 20/11/04 8:30, in article
,
"Diane Epps" wrote:


"Joe" wrote in message
...
For those of you who have an interest in the urban fox.

http://www.thefoxproject.fsnet.co.uk/

Joe
.
Yes I am interested but only in how to get rid of them. They just
killed
my ducks by biting their heads off, didn't eat them just killed them for
sport. I do hope we are not headed for the Spanish experience where
people leave poison bait out which is a danger to domestic dogs who have
to be muzzled or kept on a lead to prevent them form eating the bait. I
have dogs so this is not an option so I guess I will have to look for
someone with a gun.


You could move to Scotland. They're killing more foxes there now than
they
were before hunting was banned in that country. Of course, they're
shooting
them so the foxes that aren't killed outright will die horrible,
lingering,
painful deaths from gangrene.
--


My ducks were locked up every night in a wooden shed with straw bedding.
They spent the days with free run of the garden and use of a 10 X 10 metre
pond. But the foxes still got them in broad day light. I tried my best but
was outfoxed so to speak I no longer keep ducks, what a pity I miss their
good offices on the slug eating front. I hope I have not offended the
society for the protection of slugs, but I guess as they are not soft and
fluffy no one will be ready to march on their behalf.

On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 15:32:00 GMT, "Diane Epps"
wrote:


"Sacha" wrote in message
. uk...
On 20/11/04 8:30, in article
,
"Diane Epps" wrote:


"Joe" wrote in message
...
For those of you who have an interest in the urban fox.

http://www.thefoxproject.fsnet.co.uk/

Joe
.
Yes I am interested but only in how to get rid of them. They just
killed
my ducks by biting their heads off, didn't eat them just killed them for
sport. I do hope we are not headed for the Spanish experience where
people leave poison bait out which is a danger to domestic dogs who have
to be muzzled or kept on a lead to prevent them form eating the bait. I
have dogs so this is not an option so I guess I will have to look for
someone with a gun.


You could move to Scotland. They're killing more foxes there now than
they
were before hunting was banned in that country. Of course, they're
shooting
them so the foxes that aren't killed outright will die horrible,
lingering,
painful deaths from gangrene.
--


My ducks were locked up every night in a wooden shed with straw bedding.
They spent the days with free run of the garden and use of a 10 X 10 metre
pond. But the foxes still got them in broad day light. I tried my best but
was outfoxed so to speak I no longer keep ducks, what a pity I miss their
good offices on the slug eating front. I hope I have not offended the
society for the protection of slugs, but I guess as they are not soft and
fluffy no one will be ready to march on their behalf.


It seems your stupidty is boundless anyway so whats the point?

"Diane Epps" wrote in message
k...

"Joe" wrote in message
...
For those of you who have an interest in the urban fox.

http://www.thefoxproject.fsnet.co.uk/

Joe
.
Yes I am interested but only in how to get rid of them. They just
killed
my ducks by biting their heads off, didn't eat them just killed them for
sport. I do hope we are not headed for the Spanish experience where
people leave poison bait out which is a danger to domestic dogs who have
to be muzzled or kept on a lead to prevent them form eating the bait. I
have dogs so this is not an option so I guess I will have to look for
someone with a gun.


Alternatively practise good animal husbandry and ensure your ducks are
securely shut away at night in fox proof housing. I breed rare poultry and
have not lost any to the fox. If I did I would be blaming myself for not
providing secure accommodation for the livestock in my care.

"Sacha" wrote in message
k...
On 20/11/04 8:30, in article
,
"Diane Epps" wrote:


"Joe" wrote in message
...
For those of you who have an interest in the urban fox.

http://www.thefoxproject.fsnet.co.uk/

Joe
.
Yes I am interested but only in how to get rid of them. They just
killed
my ducks by biting their heads off, didn't eat them just killed them
for
sport. I do hope we are not headed for the Spanish experience where
people leave poison bait out which is a danger to domestic dogs who
have
to be muzzled or kept on a lead to prevent them form eating the bait.
I
have dogs so this is not an option so I guess I will have to look for
someone with a gun.


You could move to Scotland. They're killing more foxes there now than
they
were before hunting was banned in that country. Of course, they're
shooting
them so the foxes that aren't killed outright will die horrible,
lingering,
painful deaths from gangrene.

You talk as though foxes were not shot before the ban. They were.So if they
are suffering from gangrene now because inexpert marksmen are shooting them,
nothing has changed.

On 20/11/04 13:39, in article , "Dorian"
wrote:

On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 12:55:06 +0000, Sacha
wrote:

On 20/11/04 12:20, in article , "Dorian"
wrote:

snip

Actually the groups who carry out culls are supposed to be marksmen
and professional at that. Perhaps you are suggesting we should expose
these lies too? Please provide proof for that claim.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4027461.stm

Try not to take seriously the freaks with an agenda.

Do you have any none "pro hunt" proof for this? anything serious will
do!


The BBC website won't do for you? Then nothing will and you must hug your
ill-informed bias to yourself.
--

Sacha
(remove the weeds for email)

On 20/11/04 23:00, in article , "ex WGS
Hamm" wrote:

snip
You talk as though foxes were not shot before the ban. They were.So if they
are suffering from gangrene now because inexpert marksmen are shooting them,
nothing has changed.


Yes, it has. More are being killed now than were being killed before.
--

Sacha
(remove the weeds for email)

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 00:00:27 +0000, Sacha
wrote:

On 20/11/04 23:00, in article , "ex WGS
Hamm" wrote:

snip
You talk as though foxes were not shot before the ban. They were.So if they
are suffering from gangrene now because inexpert marksmen are shooting them,
nothing has changed.


Yes, it has. More are being killed now than were being killed before.

It's actually illegal to kill foxes out of spite. If you know any pro
hunt nuts taking it out on the wildlife then let us know and we'll
ensure they are dealt with by the authorities.

On 21/11/04 11:28 am, in article , "Dorian"
wrote:

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 00:00:27 +0000, Sacha
wrote:

On 20/11/04 23:00, in article , "ex WGS
Hamm" wrote:

snip
You talk as though foxes were not shot before the ban. They were.So if they
are suffering from gangrene now because inexpert marksmen are shooting them,
nothing has changed.


Yes, it has. More are being killed now than were being killed before.

It's actually illegal to kill foxes out of spite. If you know any pro
hunt nuts taking it out on the wildlife then let us know and we'll
ensure they are dealt with by the authorities.


Apparently, the law is that you may not search for foxes but you may flush
them out. As the web site to which I gave you the link shows, nothing that
is being done is illegal. I don't live in Scotland and so I don't know any
of these people - like yourself I am at liberty to read and to learn.
So it appears that what is now happening is that older foxes which have gone
to ground are remaining alive, while younger foxes which have merely taken
cover, are being killed. Nobody is shooting foxes 'out of spite' because
nobody killed them for that reason in the first place. Killing foxes - or
rabbits, or magpies, or crows, or whatever - is part of countryside
management. And that is what the *farmers* are doing. Only now they are
being forced by the anti-hunt nuts to do it in such a way as to make it
probable that the foxes are dying in great pain and larger numbers. There's
a success story for you!
Of course, urban foxes are in danger of being poisoned if they mess up
peoples' gardens and I imagine the same applies to country foxes, too. All
will die in agony but you won't see it happen, will you. So it won't be
'real'. And other creatures, like the badger we had to shoot two years ago,
will pick up the poison and die in pain, as well. Excellent result. Well
done.
--

Sacha
(remove the weeds for email)

On 22/11/04 8:39, in article ,
"Martin" wrote:

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 23:53:40 +0000, Andy
wrote:

Look. If you stop 'em hunting foxes they will go back to hunting
peasants like myself. I'm too old for it now. So let 'em hunt foxes
for fox sake.

Hunting royalty and aristocrats is becoming a popular pass time.

How right you a

The ban on foxhunting is about a class war and not animal welfare a member
of the Government admitted last night.
Peter Bradley an aide to Rural Affairs Minister Alun Michael, said his
fellow Labour MPs felt so strongly about hunting because it was a chance to
"take on the gentry".
This is seen as a startling admission which undermines efforts to portray
the ban as caring about foxes. And it came as Home Secretary, Blunkett,
indicated that the government won't be harsh about those who defy the ban in
the first few weeks after its introduction on 19 February.
This tactic is seen as a ploy by Ministers who wanted to see a ban delayed
until after the general election.
Mr Bradley said Labour MPs wanted to wipe out 'the old order': "We ought at
last to own up to it: the struggle over the Bill was not just about animal
welfare and personal freedom, it was class war. This was not about the
politics of envy but the politics of power. Ultimately, it's about who
governs Britain."
Tory environment spokesman James Gray said "It is typical of ~Tony Blair's
government to spend all its time fighting an old-fashioned class war when
all the rest of the country wants them to do is fight crime and tackle the
problems that really matter."
--

Sacha
(remove the weeds for email)

On 22/11/04 11:16, in article ,
"Martin" wrote:

snip

I am anti blood sports because IMO they are barbaric. It has nothing
to do with me fighting a class war. It's got little to do with class,
many none aristocrats also take part in blood sports.

I think it's unarguable that many people feel there are much more important
issues facing this country than fox hunting, though.
But that aside, while you may realise that a lot of non-aristocrats hunt,
there is absolutely no question that for many it IS a class issue and has
been portrayed as such. Think of John Prescott's past comments, for a
start.
You only have to read some of the rubbish that's been posted here to realise
that people intend to cling to that belief and will not accept that most
hunts are peopled by pub owners, local postmen, farmers etc. and not by
aristocracy or landed gentry.
--

Sacha
(remove the weeds for email)

In article , Sacha
writes

The ban on foxhunting is about a class war and not animal welfare a member
of the Government admitted last night.
Peter Bradley an aide to Rural Affairs Minister Alun Michael, said his
fellow Labour MPs felt so strongly about hunting because it was a chance to
"take on the gentry".

That's not quite what he said!

"It was class war. But it was not class war as we know it. It was not
launched by the tribunes against the toffs - it was the other way round.
This was not about the politics of envy, but the politics of power.
Ultimately it's about who governs Britain," the MP wrote.

To make himself clear, Mr Bradley, who is an unpaid parliamentary
private secretary to Alun Michael, the rural affairs minister,
maintained that the countryside demonstrations had been about the fast-
eroding power of the landed classes, not about the real countryside.
"That's why they oppose the right to roam and a ban on hunting. For them
it's ownership of property, especially land, and not citizenship, that
confers privilege," he wrote. "





--
Kay
"Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river"

"Sacha" wrote in message
k...
On 22/11/04 11:16, in article
,
"Martin" wrote:

snip

I am anti blood sports because IMO they are barbaric. It has
nothing
to do with me fighting a class war. It's got little to do with
class,
many none aristocrats also take part in blood sports.

I think it's unarguable that many people feel there are much more
important
issues facing this country than fox hunting, though.

And the government *is* dealing with them. About as incompetently as
it has been dealing with the hunting problem.

[snip]

Franz

snip


Alternatively practise good animal husbandry and ensure your ducks are
securely shut away at night in fox proof housing. I breed rare poultry and
have not lost any to the fox. If I did I would be blaming myself for not
providing secure accommodation for the livestock in my care.

Kept in wooden shed at night but do tell me how do I keep them safe in day
time when they had free run of the garden and pond where they were attacked
by a bold dog fox who lives on the golf course and wanders through
everyones gardens at his leisure.

On 22/11/04 13:46, in article , "Kay"
wrote:

In article , Sacha
writes

The ban on foxhunting is about a class war and not animal welfare a member
of the Government admitted last night.
Peter Bradley an aide to Rural Affairs Minister Alun Michael, said his
fellow Labour MPs felt so strongly about hunting because it was a chance to
"take on the gentry".

That's not quite what he said!

It was according to the web site I read!

snip
--

Sacha
(remove the weeds for email)

On 22/11/04 14:25, in article , "Franz
Heymann" wrote:


snip
And the government *is* dealing with them. About as incompetently as
it has been dealing with the hunting problem.

[snip]

Franz


Which is not *quite* what most of us have in mind, I think!
--

Sacha
(remove the weeds for email)

"Diane Epps" wrote in message
...

snip


Alternatively practise good animal husbandry and ensure your ducks
are
securely shut away at night in fox proof housing. I breed rare
poultry and
have not lost any to the fox. If I did I would be blaming myself
for not
providing secure accommodation for the livestock in my care.

Kept in wooden shed at night but do tell me how do I keep them safe
in day
time when they had free run of the garden and pond where they were
attacked
by a bold dog fox who lives on the golf course and wanders through
everyones gardens at his leisure.

Who said what here, and why?

Franz

In article , Sacha
writes
the struggle over the Bill was not just about animal
welfare and personal freedom, it was class war.

No, no, Sacha . . . 'perceived class' war!!!!!!!!
These people know absolutely *nothing* about hunting or the types of
people who hunt.
We don't have any blue blooded huntsmen in our local hunt.
Just ordinary people . . lorry drivers, butchers, teachers, farmers etc
etc.
--
Jane Ransom in Lancaster.
I won't respond to private emails that are on topic for urg
but if you need to email me for any other reason, put ransoms
at jandg dot demon dot co dot uk where you see

In message , Jane Ransom
scribes
In article , Sacha
writes
the struggle over the Bill was not just about animal
welfare and personal freedom, it was class war.

No, no, Sacha . . . 'perceived class' war!!!!!!!!
These people know absolutely *nothing* about hunting or the types of
people who hunt.
We don't have any blue blooded huntsmen in our local hunt.
Just ordinary people . . lorry drivers, butchers, teachers, farmers etc
etc.

Just ordinary people who find entertainment in the chase of an animal to
its death.
--
Snowy

"Sacha" wrote in message
k...
On 22/11/04 13:46, in article ,
"Kay"
wrote:

In article , Sacha
writes

The ban on foxhunting is about a class war and not animal welfare
a member
of the Government admitted last night.
Peter Bradley an aide to Rural Affairs Minister Alun Michael,
said his
fellow Labour MPs felt so strongly about hunting because it was a
chance to
"take on the gentry".

That's not quite what he said!

It was according to the web site I read!

Then it was clearly a biased website, and you might consider dropping
it.
It's a pity you snipped the quotation which Kay gave. It was highly
cogent to the discussion.

Franz

In article , Sacha
writes
On 22/11/04 13:46, in article , "Kay"
wrote:

In article , Sacha
writes

The ban on foxhunting is about a class war and not animal welfare a member
of the Government admitted last night.
Peter Bradley an aide to Rural Affairs Minister Alun Michael, said his
fellow Labour MPs felt so strongly about hunting because it was a chance to
"take on the gentry".

That's not quite what he said!

It was according to the web site I read!

That may be what your web site said, but it was not what Peter Bradley
said. The bit I quoted was taken from his article in the Sunday
Telegraph:

"Now that hunting has been banned, we ought at last to own up to it: the
struggle over the Bill was not just about animal welfare and personal
freedom, it was class war.

But it was not class war as we know it. It was not launched by the
tribunes against the toffs - it was the other way round. This was not
about the politics of envy but the politics of power. Ultimately it's
about who governs Britain. ... For them it's ownership of property,
especially land, and not citizenship that confers privilege. "

You can read the full article on the Telegraph website.
--
Kay
"Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river"

On 11/20/04 2:57 PM, in article , "ex
WGS Hamm" wrote:


"Diane Epps" wrote in message
k...

"Joe" wrote in message
...
For those of you who have an interest in the urban fox.

http://www.thefoxproject.fsnet.co.uk/

Joe
.
Yes I am interested but only in how to get rid of them. They just
killed
my ducks by biting their heads off, didn't eat them just killed them for
sport. I do hope we are not headed for the Spanish experience where
people leave poison bait out which is a danger to domestic dogs who have
to be muzzled or kept on a lead to prevent them form eating the bait. I
have dogs so this is not an option so I guess I will have to look for
someone with a gun.


Alternatively practise good animal husbandry and ensure your ducks are
securely shut away at night in fox proof housing. I breed rare poultry and
have not lost any to the fox. If I did I would be blaming myself for not
providing secure accommodation for the livestock in my care.


Good point. Taking responsibility! Owning the problem! Not blaming someone
else....well done!
But I'm wondering... "have not lost any to the fox..." The fox? There is
only one fox? Must be a biggie...
Bill

"Janet Baraclough.." wrote in message
...
The message
from Sacha contains these words:
Killing foxes - or
rabbits, or magpies, or crows, or whatever - is part of countryside
management. And that is what the *farmers* are doing. Only now they
are
being forced by the anti-hunt nuts to do it in such a way as to make it
probable that the foxes are dying in great pain and larger numbers.


In Scotland, AFAIR there was very little anti-hunt protest. The change
was a straightforward majority decision of the Scottish Parliament.
There were only 10 Scottish horse/hound hunts, in the flatter lowlands
with suitable terrain for galloping a horse. Fox control in the rest
(majority) of Scotland has always been done by other methods including
shooting.It's inaccurate to claim that farmers here have been "forced by
anti-hunt nuts" into shooting foxes badly. The raised killcounts are
figures provided by the same sport hunts comparing their OWN pre- and
post-ban tallies. They are still hunting foxes. IOW, your comments above
are criticising sport hunts.

The largest Scottish hunt, the Buccleugh, records that it killed twice
as many foxes pa after the ban as before. It's still legal here to use
hounds to "flush foxes to the guns", but inevitably they still chase and
kill some before the foxes get to the guns. Before the ban, foxes which
went to ground were let alone. Now the hunt sends in terriers to flush
it out to shoot. In 03 to 04, the Buccleugh's tally was 58 foxes shot by
guns,19 killed by hounds and 26 shot leaving boltholes.


If similar 'workarounds' prove feasible in England and Wales, the Act is
hardly likely to stop hunting with hounds.

In article , Ian Snowdon
writes

Just ordinary people who find entertainment in the chase of an animal to
its death.

Do you have a cat?
--
Jane Ransom in Lancaster.
I won't respond to private emails that are on topic for urg
but if you need to email me for any other reason, put ransoms
at jandg dot demon dot co dot uk where you see

On 22/11/04 8:20 pm, in article , "Jane
Ransom" wrote:

In article , Sacha
writes
the struggle over the Bill was not just about animal
welfare and personal freedom, it was class war.

No, no, Sacha . . . 'perceived class' war!!!!!!!!

I wish, Jane. I wish.

These people know absolutely *nothing* about hunting or the types of
people who hunt.
We don't have any blue blooded huntsmen in our local hunt.
Just ordinary people . . lorry drivers, butchers, teachers, farmers etc
etc.

Ditto in South Devon - same goes for much of the shooting. A shoot near us
is run by a local game keeper, retired plumber/publican, quarry man, stone
mason - not one drop of blue blood in sight.
--

Sacha
(remove the weeds for email)

On 22/11/04 11:05 pm, in article ,
"Kay" wrote:

In article , Sacha
writes
On 22/11/04 13:46, in article , "Kay"
wrote:

In article , Sacha
writes

The ban on foxhunting is about a class war and not animal welfare a member
of the Government admitted last night.
Peter Bradley an aide to Rural Affairs Minister Alun Michael, said his
fellow Labour MPs felt so strongly about hunting because it was a chance to
"take on the gentry".

That's not quite what he said!

It was according to the web site I read!

That may be what your web site said, but it was not what Peter Bradley
said. The bit I quoted was taken from his article in the Sunday
Telegraph:

"Now that hunting has been banned, we ought at last to own up to it: the
struggle over the Bill was not just about animal welfare and personal
freedom, it was class war.

But it was not class war as we know it. It was not launched by the
tribunes against the toffs - it was the other way round. This was not
about the politics of envy but the politics of power. Ultimately it's
about who governs Britain. ... For them it's ownership of property,
especially land, and not citizenship that confers privilege. "

You can read the full article on the Telegraph website.

So - it was class war. Those who do not own the land but perceive it as
giving power, 'fought' those who do. It was, therefore, class war but NOT
an animal welfare issue. The second paragraph declares that.
I don't want to hear one more word from the fluffywuffies about the poor
ickle fox, therefore. And I don't even hunt, never have!
--

Sacha
(remove the weeds for email)

In article , Sacha
writes
On 22/11/04 11:05 pm, in article ,
"Kay" wrote:


You can read the full article on the Telegraph website.

So - it was class war. Those who do not own the land but perceive it as
giving power, 'fought' those who do.

The argument of the article was the other way around - that the reaction
was so strong because those that do own the land perceived it as an
attack on their power. The article was about the reaction to the Bill,
not about its genesis. So on the question of whether the Bill was
stimulated by class issues or by animal rights concerns, it isn't
satisfactory evidence for either side.


--
Kay
"Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river"

In article , Jane Ransom
writes
In article , Ian Snowdon
writes

Just ordinary people who find entertainment in the chase of an animal to
its death.

Do you have a cat?

That's a relevant question only if you believe that most cat owners find
entertainment in their cat's killing.
--
Kay
"Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river"

Kay wrote:
In article , Sacha
writes
On 22/11/04 11:05 pm, in article
, "Kay"
wrote:


You can read the full article on the Telegraph website.

So - it was class war. Those who do not own the land but perceive
it
as giving power, 'fought' those who do.

The argument of the article was the other way around - that the
reaction was so strong because those that do own the land perceived
it as an attack on their power. The article was about the reaction
to
the Bill, not about its genesis. So on the question of whether the
Bill was stimulated by class issues or by animal rights concerns,
it
isn't satisfactory evidence for either side.

I think your interpretation of the text is sound. And, actually, the
MP was making an interesting point about the pro campaign. I'd need
more evidence before deciding if he was right or wrong, but it's a
point of view well worthy of consideration. Political campaigns often
turn out to have an important sub-text.

Mike.

On 23/11/04 7:16 pm, in article , "Kay"
wrote:

In article , Sacha
writes
On 22/11/04 11:05 pm, in article ,
"Kay" wrote:


You can read the full article on the Telegraph website.

So - it was class war. Those who do not own the land but perceive it as
giving power, 'fought' those who do.

The argument of the article was the other way around - that the reaction
was so strong because those that do own the land perceived it as an
attack on their power. The article was about the reaction to the Bill,
not about its genesis. So on the question of whether the Bill was
stimulated by class issues or by animal rights concerns, it isn't
satisfactory evidence for either side.


The majority of people who hunt are not the rich land owners against whom
the Labour party now admits it was conducting a class war. At the end of
all this, that was what this was about - a class war. Not a concern for
animal welfare - a class war. It was a disgusting exercise in manipulative
hypocrisy. I'd like to see Tony Blair come down here to the South Devon
Hunt and tell them they're a crowd of land-owning feudalists who think they
own and control Britain.
Assuming the our beloved leader can find the SW of England.
--

Sacha
(remove the weeds for email)

In message , Sacha
writes
On 23/11/04 7:16 pm, in article , "Kay"
wrote:

In article , Sacha
writes
On 22/11/04 11:05 pm, in article ,
"Kay" wrote:


You can read the full article on the Telegraph website.

So - it was class war. Those who do not own the land but perceive it as
giving power, 'fought' those who do.

The argument of the article was the other way around - that the reaction
was so strong because those that do own the land perceived it as an
attack on their power. The article was about the reaction to the Bill,
not about its genesis. So on the question of whether the Bill was
stimulated by class issues or by animal rights concerns, it isn't
satisfactory evidence for either side.


The majority of people who hunt are not the rich land owners against whom
the Labour party now admits it was conducting a class war. At the end of
all this, that was what this was about - a class war. Not a concern for
animal welfare - a class war. It was a disgusting exercise in manipulative
hypocrisy. I'd like to see Tony Blair come down here to the South Devon
Hunt and tell them they're a crowd of land-owning feudalists who think they
own and control Britain.
Assuming the our beloved leader can find the SW of England.

Explain, please. Your argument is unconvincing.

Many thanks.
--
June Hughes

On 23/11/04 10:02 pm, in article , "June
Hughes" wrote:

In message , Sacha
writes
On 23/11/04 7:16 pm, in article , "Kay"
wrote:

In article , Sacha
writes
On 22/11/04 11:05 pm, in article ,
"Kay" wrote:


You can read the full article on the Telegraph website.

So - it was class war. Those who do not own the land but perceive it as
giving power, 'fought' those who do.

The argument of the article was the other way around - that the reaction
was so strong because those that do own the land perceived it as an
attack on their power. The article was about the reaction to the Bill,
not about its genesis. So on the question of whether the Bill was
stimulated by class issues or by animal rights concerns, it isn't
satisfactory evidence for either side.


The majority of people who hunt are not the rich land owners against whom
the Labour party now admits it was conducting a class war. At the end of
all this, that was what this was about - a class war. Not a concern for
animal welfare - a class war. It was a disgusting exercise in manipulative
hypocrisy. I'd like to see Tony Blair come down here to the South Devon
Hunt and tell them they're a crowd of land-owning feudalists who think they
own and control Britain.
Assuming the our beloved leader can find the SW of England.

Explain, please. Your argument is unconvincing.

Many thanks.

I suggest you read the many reports on the matter, June. I feel sure those
will convince you more than anything I have to say.
--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove the weeds to email me)