Allotment holders beware
 

I have read an article in the Spectator today 27th Nov 2004 where someone
on her way to meet some Corporate Lawyers in London was arrested, treated
rather unprofessionally, and locked up for hours for having a Swiss Army
Multitool in their briefcase which they were carrying in their car.
This commonplace tool has a locking blade and it made me wonder about the
sharp kitchen knife (fixed blade) we use for cutting veg on our allotment.
Now with our allotments being subject to constant raids by villains we use a
Landrover 90 van and carry our tools, including the knife, with us.
We must therefore be open to arrest at any time whilst in the Landy, which
also contains hammers, seceuters, various sharp gardening tools.......and I
bet we aren't the only allotment folk that carry such things.
How the hell are we supposed to cut veg on our allotments if we can't carry
a decent knife?

--
Regards
Bob
In Runnymede, 17 miles West of London

The message
from "Bob Hobden" contains these words:

I have read an article in the Spectator today 27th Nov 2004 where someone
on her way to meet some Corporate Lawyers in London was arrested, treated
rather unprofessionally, and locked up for hours for having a Swiss Army
Multitool in their briefcase which they were carrying in their car.
This commonplace tool has a locking blade and it made me wonder about the
sharp kitchen knife (fixed blade) we use for cutting veg on our allotment.
Now with our allotments being subject to constant raids by villains we
use a
Landrover 90 van and carry our tools, including the knife, with us.
We must therefore be open to arrest at any time whilst in the Landy, which
also contains hammers, seceuters, various sharp gardening tools.......and I
bet we aren't the only allotment folk that carry such things.
How the hell are we supposed to cut veg on our allotments if we can't carry
a decent knife?

Seems like an over-reaction. The law forbids you to carry an offensive
weapon, and that can include anything from a hydrogen bomb to a bodkin,
but it's qualified buy "without lawful excuse" (OWTTE).

I carry a lock-knife with a three and one eighth inch blade most of the
time, whether I'm indoors, in the garden or out and about. It's always
in a pouch - (not really a sheath, because it only fits in when folded)
- unless I'm using it.

I should be more than unhappy if I were detained, and would very shortly
be preparing litigation.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote in message
k...

I carry a lock-knife with a three and one eighth inch blade most of the
time, whether I'm indoors, in the garden

...or out and about.

That's the bit that could get you into trouble.

--
Brian
"Reality rarely lives up to TV, usually because reality has a smaller budget
and the opportunities for retakes are minimal."

"Brian Watson" wrote in message
...

"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote in message
k...

I carry a lock-knife with a three and one eighth inch blade most of the
time, whether I'm indoors, in the garden

...or out and about.

That's the bit that could get you into trouble.



The full story is pretty scary IMHO, not just because of sheer stupidity of
the incident itself, but the horrendous waste of police manpower at a time
when they complain about being shortstaffed.

--
Tumbleweed

email replies not necessary but to contact use;
tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com

The message
from "Brian Watson" contains these words:
"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote in message
k...

I carry a lock-knife with a three and one eighth inch blade most of the
time, whether I'm indoors, in the garden

...or out and about.

That's the bit that could get you into trouble.

Not if you have a lawful reason for using it, it mustn't.

I use the word 'mustn't rather than 'can't', because it can cause
trouble, but not within the law.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote in message
k...
The message
from "Brian Watson" contains these words:
"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote in
message
k...

I carry a lock-knife with a three and one eighth inch blade most of
the
time, whether I'm indoors, in the garden

...or out and about.

That's the bit that could get you into trouble.

Not if you have a lawful reason for using it, it mustn't.

I use the word 'mustn't rather than 'can't', because it can cause
trouble, but not within the law.

The legal issue is that the carrier must be able to show due cause for
carrying it.

--
Brian
"Reality rarely lives up to TV, usually because reality has a smaller budget
and the opportunities for retakes are minimal."

The message
from "Brian Watson" contains these words:
"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote in message
k...
The message
from "Brian Watson" contains these words:
"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote in
message
k...

I carry a lock-knife with a three and one eighth inch blade most of
the
time, whether I'm indoors, in the garden

...or out and about.

That's the bit that could get you into trouble.

Not if you have a lawful reason for using it, it mustn't.

I use the word 'mustn't rather than 'can't', because it can cause
trouble, but not within the law.

The legal issue is that the carrier must be able to show due cause for
carrying it.

I use it for all sorts of things in my daily toil: wire-stripping;
cutting string; cutting cardboard for packaging, etc.

When I'm in subunderkeeper mode it's used for cutting baling twine,
wood, plastic pipes; cleaning game; etc.

Killing horseflies: http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/ked002.jpg in the
garden; cutting string, twine, etc; oh, and whatever gardeners and
bodgers do in gardens.

If I have it when out and about, say, driving to a mushrooming spot
(FDVO mushrooms), and apart from cutting the stipes, I nearly always
take my sandwiches in kit form, so, usually I slice the bread first (or
take rolls) but slice cheese, tomatoes, cucumber, celery, onions etc as
required.

I nearly always have pencils and something to sketch on with me when
out, and a knife is useful for 101 other things which you only find out
about when you need one.

To me, a knife is a tool and a friend.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

In message , Jaques
d'Alltrades writes
To me, a knife is a tool and a friend.

We gave our middle daughter a Swiss Army knife when she set off around
the world. It was stolen in India, in a women's refuge where she was
working; she was really upset, so when she got to Australia, we got
relatives to buy her a new one for Christmas. She got it home, but then
she was off to Brazil, and had to carry her backpack on board for some
reason - so, of course, no knives. She thought she'd be clever, and she
handed it in to Lost Property, hoping to retrieve it on her return - but
since 9/11 they immediately destroy all "weapons" handed in... We got
her yet another last Christmas....

--
Klara, Gatwick basin

"Martin" wrote
after"Bob Hobden"
I have read an article in the Spectator today 27th Nov 2004 where
someone
on her way to meet some Corporate Lawyers in London was arrested,
treated
rather unprofessionally, and locked up for hours for having a Swiss Army
Multitool in their briefcase which they were carrying in their car.
This commonplace tool has a locking blade and it made me wonder about
the
sharp kitchen knife (fixed blade) we use for cutting veg on our
allotment.
Now with our allotments being subject to constant raids by villains we
use a
Landrover 90 van and carry our tools, including the knife, with us.
We must therefore be open to arrest at any time whilst in the Landy,
which
also contains hammers, seceuters, various sharp gardening
tools.......and I
bet we aren't the only allotment folk that carry such things.
How the hell are we supposed to cut veg on our allotments if we can't
carry
a decent knife?

Seems like an over-reaction. The law forbids you to carry an offensive
weapon, and that can include anything from a hydrogen bomb to a bodkin,
but it's qualified buy "without lawful excuse" (OWTTE).

See
http://www.mikepower.squarespace.com/
--

Quite, so where does it leave allotment people like us, that carry a large
knife in our vehicle? Some say if you have reason to have it it's OK but
I've heard of a Thames Waterman that got badly beaten and arrested for
carrying a knife, and that's a tool of his trade, he only got off after his
union got involved.
We haven't got a union.

--
Regards
Bob
In Runnymede, 17 miles West of London

The message
from "Bob Hobden" contains these words:

Quite, so where does it leave allotment people like us, that carry a large
knife in our vehicle? Some say if you have reason to have it it's OK but
I've heard of a Thames Waterman that got badly beaten and arrested for
carrying a knife, and that's a tool of his trade, he only got off after his
union got involved.
We haven't got a union.

Isn't there an allotments' society of some sort. I'm pretty sure there is.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 01:24:24 GMT, Jaques d'Alltrades
wrote:

~The message
~from "Bob Hobden" contains these words:
~
~ Quite, so where does it leave allotment people like us, that carry a large
~ knife in our vehicle? Some say if you have reason to have it it's OK but
~ I've heard of a Thames Waterman that got badly beaten and arrested for
~ carrying a knife, and that's a tool of his trade, he only got off after his
~ union got involved.
~ We haven't got a union.
~
~Isn't there an allotments' society of some sort. I'm pretty sure there is.
~

www.nsalg.org.uk but they don't seem to do much outside of the legal
side of keeping plots. Even their website's links to FAQs and what to
do when are just the RHS and BBC websites.

I have a stainless swiss army gardening knife I got a couple of years
ago for the allotment and it's got both a convex and a concave blade
together with a budding knife. It's one of the most useful tools I've
got, having gone through several inferior gardening knives, and in
fact Victorinox only deserve one huge slap on the wrist for the design
as they left off a hoop for securing it to a chain so it's easy to
drop and lose... so far so good, though.

But then anyone who stops me for having it will have had to search
through my trug of hand tools and (if it's on the way back home) a
pile of veg, so should be under no illusions as to why it's there :-)


--
jane

Don't part with your illusions. When they are gone,
you may still exist but you have ceased to live.
Mark Twain

Please remove onmaps from replies, thanks!

Martin wrote:

I have a stainless swiss army gardening knife I got a couple of years
ago for the allotment and it's got both a convex and a concave blade
together with a budding knife. It's one of the most useful tools I've
got, having gone through several inferior gardening knives, and in
fact Victorinox only deserve one huge slap on the wrist for the design
as they left off a hoop for securing it to a chain so it's easy to
drop and lose... so far so good, though.

I can't find this on the web. Is it sold as gardening knife?

It seems like it would make a good Christmas present.

Found this site which has a selection on Swiss Army Knives for gardeners:

http://www.walshbrothers.co.uk/Updat..._penknives.htm

HTH.

--
I have a simple philosophy:

Fill what's empty.
Empty what's full.
Scratch where it itches.
-- A. R. Longworth

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 13:09:04 +0100, Martin wrote:

~On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 11:52:13 +0000 (UTC),
(jane) wrote:
~
~On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 01:24:24 GMT, Jaques d'Alltrades
wrote:
~
~~The message
~~from "Bob Hobden" contains these words:
~~
~~ Quite, so where does it leave allotment people like us, that carry a large
~~ knife in our vehicle? Some say if you have reason to have it it's OK but
~~ I've heard of a Thames Waterman that got badly beaten and arrested for
~~ carrying a knife, and that's a tool of his trade, he only got off after his
~~ union got involved.
~~ We haven't got a union.
~~
~~Isn't there an allotments' society of some sort. I'm pretty sure there is.
~~
~
~www.nsalg.org.uk but they don't seem to do much outside of the legal
~side of keeping plots. Even their website's links to FAQs and what to
~do when are just the RHS and BBC websites.
~
~I have a stainless swiss army gardening knife I got a couple of years
~ago for the allotment and it's got both a convex and a concave blade
~together with a budding knife. It's one of the most useful tools I've
~got, having gone through several inferior gardening knives, and in
~fact Victorinox only deserve one huge slap on the wrist for the design
~as they left off a hoop for securing it to a chain so it's easy to
~drop and lose... so far so good, though.
~
~I can't find this on the web. Is it sold as gardening knife?

I got it from a stall at Chelsea in 03.

~It seems like it would make a good Christmas present.
yes, but they seem to have, as you noticed, discontinued it in favour
of three separate knives.

That's torn it. I'll probably lose it now it's irreplaceable :-(

Nope! Found it!!!! See the second from bottom (and hope they still
have some) code AK39116

http://www.walshbrothers.co.uk/Updat..._penknives.htm


--
jane

Don't part with your illusions. When they are gone,
you may still exist but you have ceased to live.
Mark Twain

Please remove onmaps from replies, thanks!

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 13:58:09 +0000, bigboard
wrote:

~Martin wrote:
~
~I have a stainless swiss army gardening knife I got a couple of years
~ago for the allotment and it's got both a convex and a concave blade
~together with a budding knife. It's one of the most useful tools I've
~got, having gone through several inferior gardening knives, and in
~fact Victorinox only deserve one huge slap on the wrist for the design
~as they left off a hoop for securing it to a chain so it's easy to
~drop and lose... so far so good, though.
~
~ I can't find this on the web. Is it sold as gardening knife?
~
~ It seems like it would make a good Christmas present.
~
~Found this site which has a selection on Swiss Army Knives for gardeners:
~
~http://www.walshbrothers.co.uk/Updat..._penknives.htm
~
~HTH.
~
you beat me to it huge grin


--
jane

Don't part with your illusions. When they are gone,
you may still exist but you have ceased to live.
Mark Twain

Please remove onmaps from replies, thanks!

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 13:58:09 +0000, bigboard
wrote:

~Martin wrote:
~
~I have a stainless swiss army gardening knife I got a couple of years
~ago for the allotment and it's got both a convex and a concave blade
~together with a budding knife. It's one of the most useful tools I've
~got, having gone through several inferior gardening knives, and in
~fact Victorinox only deserve one huge slap on the wrist for the design
~as they left off a hoop for securing it to a chain so it's easy to
~drop and lose... so far so good, though.
~
~ I can't find this on the web. Is it sold as gardening knife?
~
~ It seems like it would make a good Christmas present.
~
~Found this site which has a selection on Swiss Army Knives for gardeners:
~
~http://www.walshbrothers.co.uk/Updat..._penknives.htm
~
~
oops replying again :) googling for 39116 and victorinox turns up a
few more locations, mostly overseas, but there's one here

http://www.burton-mccall.co.uk/dsp_d...id=1&fromrec=1

The size is given wrong in the Walsh Brothers one. No way is it that
small! I'd say 3.5".

I also found it on a German site, saying it's 10cm long (I agree) and
that it was in the catalogue in August. Assuming aufnehmen means to
receive...

I might have to order a spare.


--
jane

Don't part with your illusions. When they are gone,
you may still exist but you have ceased to live.
Mark Twain

Please remove onmaps from replies, thanks!

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 16:45:32 +0100, Martin wrote:

~On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 15:34:34 +0000 (UTC),
(jane) wrote:
~
~On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 13:09:04 +0100, Martin wrote:
~
~~I can't find this on the web. Is it sold as gardening knife?
~
~I got it from a stall at Chelsea in 03.
~
~~It seems like it would make a good Christmas present.
~yes, but they seem to have, as you noticed, discontinued it in favour
~of three separate knives.
~
~That's torn it. I'll probably lose it now it's irreplaceable :-(
~
~Nope! Found it!!!! See the second from bottom (and hope they still
~have some) code AK39116
~
~http://www.walshbrothers.co.uk/Updat..._penknives.htm
~
~Thanks Jane. What's the thing called a brass opener for opening?
~Yorkshire wallets? :-)
~
I think it's the budding knife.

(and thanks for the laugh!)


--
jane

Don't part with your illusions. When they are gone,
you may still exist but you have ceased to live.
Mark Twain

Please remove onmaps from replies, thanks!

That's torn it. I'll probably lose it now it's irreplaceable :-(

Nope! Found it!!!! See the second from bottom (and hope they still
have some) code AK39116

You could always get a belt pouch for your knife:

http://www.minitools.co.uk/index.htm...ox/pouches.htm

But then it would be easy to spot if you got stopped on your way home :-(

Cheers

Nick
http://www.ukgardening.co.uk

The message
from Martin contains these words:

Thanks Jane. What's the thing called a brass opener for opening?
Yorkshire wallets? :-)

Brasses. HTH

HAND

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

"Martin" wrote in message
...

[snip]

Thanks Jane. What's the thing called a brass opener for opening?
Yorkshire wallets? :-)

Perhaps the typesetter got to be a bit overenthusiastic about the
number of "s's at the end of the word?

Franz

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 17:22:23 +0100, Martin wrote:

~On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 16:06:34 +0000 (UTC),
(jane) wrote:
~
~On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 13:58:09 +0000, bigboard
wrote:
~
~~Martin wrote:
~~
~~I have a stainless swiss army gardening knife I got a couple of years
~~ago for the allotment and it's got both a convex and a concave blade
~~together with a budding knife. It's one of the most useful tools I've
~~got, having gone through several inferior gardening knives, and in
~~fact Victorinox only deserve one huge slap on the wrist for the design
~~as they left off a hoop for securing it to a chain so it's easy to
~~drop and lose... so far so good, though.
~~
~~ I can't find this on the web. Is it sold as gardening knife?
~~
~~ It seems like it would make a good Christmas present.
~~
~~Found this site which has a selection on Swiss Army Knives for gardeners:
~~
~~http://www.walshbrothers.co.uk/Updat..._penknives.htm
~~
~~
~oops replying again :) googling for 39116 and victorinox turns up a
~few more locations, mostly overseas, but there's one here
~
~http://www.burton-mccall.co.uk/dsp_d...id=1&fromrec=1
~
~The size is given wrong in the Walsh Brothers one. No way is it that
~small! I'd say 3.5".
~
~I also found it on a German site, saying it's 10cm long (I agree) and
~that it was in the catalogue in August. Assuming aufnehmen means to
~receive...
~
~"aufgenommen"?

past tense of aufnehmen. The 'auf' is always on the front and you
acquire a 'ge' when it's past tense, and it's one of the verbs I spent
hours learning 3 or so years ago. Weird thing is, it looks like it
ought to be translated as to take out! But it's the opposite...

~
~https://ssl.victorinox-shop.de/produ...oducts_id=1867
~Okuliermesser, rot, 2 Klingen, mit Hornlöser
~[39116] 24,50EUR
~Okuliermesser, rot, 2 Klingen, mit Hornlöser
blade -- die Klinge
~Für eine grössere Darstellung
~klicken Sie auf das Bild.
~
~Okuliermesser
budding knife -- das Okuliermesser
~
~Klingen: 100mm rostfrei, gebogen und geschweift
~Schalen: Nylon rot
~Hornlöser
horn release? hmmmm....

~Dieses Produkt haben wir am Friday, 13. August 2004 in unseren Katalog
~aufgenommen.
~
~NOT IN STOCK!

Bummer.

I am off to Berlin on Friday and I know I'll be going to a knife shop
we know as Sir wishes to get a new steel, so I'll have a look.


--
jane

Don't part with your illusions. When they are gone,
you may still exist but you have ceased to live.
Mark Twain

Please remove onmaps from replies, thanks!

"jane" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 17:22:23 +0100, Martin wrote:


~"aufgenommen"?

past tense of aufnehmen. The 'auf' is always on the front and you
acquire a 'ge' when it's past tense, and it's one of the verbs I
spent
hours learning 3 or so years ago. Weird thing is, it looks like it
ought to be translated as to take out! But it's the opposite...

Not really. "Aus is "out". "Auf" is "up", hence "taken up" which
might be translated loosely as "received"

[snip]

Franz

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 19:59:56 +0100, Martin wrote:

~On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 17:50:45 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:
~
~
~"Martin" wrote in message
. ..
~
~[snip]
~
~ Thanks Jane. What's the thing called a brass opener for opening?
~ Yorkshire wallets? :-)
~
~Perhaps the typesetter got to be a bit overenthusiastic about the
~number of "s's at the end of the word?
~
~dirty beast :-)
~
~It says "horn" in German.

Honestly! You lot....

And apparently that kind of knife is called something totally
different over there (a word which is a name, not descriptive), but I
was several words behind in my translation of the salesman's chat and
missed exactly what he said as I can only usually pick up every 4th
word anyway...
But I now have a spare which I shall pop in a safe place and hopefully
not need for a long time.

But back to the original point, I tend to regularly heave about a
garden fork, a Wolfgarten handle, a hoe attachment plus a few other
bits including my pruners and a trowel (and occasionally shears for
the grass).
They could all be used to great effect for self-defence, a fact that
doesn't escape most of the female allotment holders!

I don't leave them up at the lotties as they'd get nicked. Our local
police came to give a talk on security at the last AGM and said they
advise allotment gardeners to carry all their tools to and from the
allotments in order to stop theft.

If anyone therefore stops me between there and home, I shall point out
I was simply obeying the local sergeant who said it in front of the
Mayor and about 50 other witnesses :)


--
jane

Don't part with your illusions. When they are gone,
you may still exist but you have ceased to live.
Mark Twain

Please remove onmaps from replies, thanks!