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Legal/Ethical Dilemma?
Three years ago, my neighbors were storing a canoe up against the chain link
fence that separates our backyards. It was an eyesore. My opinion is that I have no right complaining to my neighbors about what they do on their own property, so I took a pro-active approach instead. I planted some Silver Lace vines on the chain link fence. This worked very well and by the end of summer it hid the canoe, and it looked really nice. The following year, they got rid of the canoe and planted a flower garden in its place. Even though I no longer needed the vines, they looked so beautiful that I kept them. Now, three years later, they are a magnificent backdrop to the rest of my flower garden. It's a backdrop to their flower garden too, and they didn't even have to pay for it. During the Christmas holidays, I invited these neighbors over for a holiday drink, and James said "Michelle, you're going to have to do something about those vines." When I asked him what he meant, he said that the vines were growing into their yard and are strangling their plants. I told him that it's a vine, and all vines need trimming occasionally. I told him I trim my side of the vine every two or three weeks in the summer, and it only takes about five minutes each time. I said that's a small price to pay for having such a beautiful plant that is covering what was an ugly chain link fence. He told me that he and his wife shouldn't have to trim it at all, because it was my vine. He said if I were willing to trim it on their side of the fence from now on, they wouldn't have a problem with it, but if I don't do this, I'd have to "do something about my vines". He of course means I should kill the plants to make him happy. I changed the topic and wasn't the same for the rest of the evening. I was insulted that they would come into my home, drink my wine, and use it as an opportunity to criticize me. Plus, it's winter! Why is he bringing that up in the middle of winter? I have already decided that I will trim the vines on their side of the fence. But now I'm wondering who is right, and who is wrong, in this situation? Am I right to think my neighbors are cranky? Does the law obligate me to trim vines that enter my neighbors yard? Should they accept the minor chore of vine trimming in return for having such a beautiful backdrop (their words) to their garden? TIA! Michelle |
In article , Michelle C
writes I have already decided that I will trim the vines on their side of the fence. But now I'm wondering who is right, and who is wrong, in this situation? Am I right to think my neighbors are cranky? Does the law obligate me to trim vines that enter my neighbors yard? Should they accept the minor chore of vine trimming in return for having such a beautiful backdrop (their words) to their garden? Where are you posting from? Your frequent use of 'yard' suggests it might not be the UK, in which case our advice will not be of much use to you. -- Kay "Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river" |
I'm in the USA. I realize that our laws are often different, and what
applies in the U.K. may not apply here. I'm just curious. (You don't call them "yards" in the U.K.?) Where are you posting from? Your frequent use of 'yard' suggests it might not be the UK, in which case our advice will not be of much use to you. |
In article , Kay
writes Where are you posting from? Your frequent use of 'yard' suggests it might not be the UK, in which case our advice will not be of much use to you. You may take that view of your own advice if you wish Kay, but many non UK gardeners have been very grateful for help given to them by urglers, and long may they continue to do so. Gardening is a global activity and the Internet is a global means of communication. Any mailing about UK recreational gardening is welcome here. -- Alan & Joan Gould - North Lincs. |
On 10/1/05 18:20, in article , "Michelle C"
wrote: I'm in the USA. I realize that our laws are often different, and what applies in the U.K. may not apply here. I'm just curious. (You don't call them "yards" in the U.K.?) Gardens. ;-) -- Sacha www.hillhousenursery.co.uk South Devon (remove the weeds to email me) |
Thanks for your reply, Sasha,
Maybe the growing conditions are not as good in my yard, but the Silver Lace vines only require trimming every 2-3 weeks, as I said. I disagree with you though about how "patient" these neighbors are. They have no trees of their own, and two years ago installed a above-ground swimming pool in their yard. Since then they've complained numerous times about my trees (mature oaks and elms) blocking the morning sun from their pool, and the westerly neighbor's trees (oaks) of blocking the the afternoon sun. They actually asked him if he would cut his oak tree down because of this! I only asked about the legality of their complaint out of curiousity. I have no intention of taking them to court. I'll trim the vines, and if they persist in being cranky, I'll cut them down and install a privacy fence - one of my own choosing - and ask nothing of them in way of renumeration. Thanks, Michelle |
"Michelle C" wrote in message ... snip As you are an American, I suggest that as someone has upset you, you bomb the hell out of them, invade their garden, occupy it, take their natural resources to pay for the damage, and then insist that they thank you for showing them the American Way. Have a nice day y'all. |
I forgot to mention, these same neighbors complain about the leaves my trees
drop into their yard each fall. I wonder if they will ask me to rake their yard for them? :-0 |
Thanks for your warm welcome, Duncan.
"Duncan Heenan" wrote in message ... As you are an American, I suggest that as someone has upset you, you bomb the hell out of them, invade their garden, occupy it, take their natural resources to pay for the damage, and then insist that they thank you for showing them the American Way. Have a nice day y'all. |
Duncan Heenan wrote:
:: "Michelle C" wrote in message :: ... ::: snip :: :: As you are an American, I suggest that as someone has upset you, :: you bomb the hell out of them, invade their garden, occupy it, :: take their natural resources to pay for the damage, and then :: insist that they thank you for showing them the American Way. :: Have a nice day y'all. Just like Britain did with India, Burma, Australia, America, Canada etc etc etc. -- http://www.blueyonder256k.myby.co.uk/ |
In article ,
Janet Baraclough wrote: The message from "Michelle C" contains these words: I'm in the USA. I realize that our laws are often different, and what applies in the U.K. may not apply here. I'm just curious. (You don't call them "yards" in the U.K.?) No, we went metric. I deny that my yard has ever been metricated. Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
In article , Sacha
writes On 10/1/05 18:20, in article , "Michelle C" wrote: I'm in the USA. I realize that our laws are often different, and what applies in the U.K. may not apply here. I'm just curious. (You don't call them "yards" in the U.K.?) Gardens. ;-) A yard is a small area of concrete where you keep the dustbins. Not a place where you would linger ;-) -- Kay "Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river" |
In article , Michelle C
writes I forgot to mention, these same neighbors complain about the leaves my trees drop into their yard each fall. The law over here is that if your trees overhang my garden, I can cut them back as far as the boundary, but what I cut off remains your property and I have to offer it back to you. The more neighbourly approach is to discuss trimming beforehand, and not to just sling the trimmings back over the fence. -- Kay "Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river" |
Hello Janet,
Monday, January 10, 2005, 9:22:54 PM, you wrote: JB No, we went metric. When? OK fuel and things in shops are sold metrically but there are still Miles, feet yards and inches or have things changed in the two months since I've been living in France (where I'm about to change my bike computer from miles to kilometers) ;-) -- Best regards, Richard (remove NS to reply) mailto:richard.wakeford@wanadoNS/fr |
Hello Janet,
Monday, January 10, 2005, 9:22:54 PM, you wrote: (You don't call them "yards" in the U.K.?) JB No, we went metric. Ignore my last post. I was totally sucked in there as I didn't read further back. I'll crawl back under my stone! -- Best regards, Richard (remove NS to reply) mailto:richard.wakeford@wanadoNS/fr |
The message from Alan Gould contains these words: You may take that view of your own advice if you wish Kay, but many non UK gardeners have been very grateful for help given to them by urglers, and long may they continue to do so. Gardening is a global activity and the Internet is a global means of communication. Any mailing about UK recreational gardening is welcome here. UK recreational gardening is on topic, american law is not. -- Kay "Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river" |
... .. Square rod shirley? No! That's 302.5 square Yards. -- Regards Bob In Runnymede, 17 miles West of London |
"Michelle C" wrote I forgot to mention, these same neighbors complain about the leaves my trees drop into their yard each fall. I wonder if they will ask me to rake their yard for them? :-0 I had a neighbour like that once, miserable old woman, my reply when she complained nastily about my trees leaves was to say "I would have thought my name and address would have been washed off them by now". If she had asked nicely I'd have raked them up for her but nice wasn't in her nature. -- Regards Bob In Runnymede, 17 miles West of London |
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None of which you mentioned in your original post and none of which have anything to do with a Polygonum eating some of your neighbour's plants. Yes, it's known as "additional" information. I supplied it because I thought it would help people to better understand the situation. Am I not allowed to do that? If you have a garden big enough to house mature oaks and elms in the plural, then I can't imagine you and your neighbours need to have much to do with each other unless you choose to do so. Except when it comes to their petty complaints. |
I like to think we are a friendly bunch of people in here, and comments
like; As you are an American, I suggest that as someone has upset you, you bomb the hell out of them, invade their garden, occupy it, take their natural resources to pay for the damage, and then insist that they thank you for showing them the American Way. Have a nice day y'all. are totally uncalled for ......Duncan! However, I would have thought the best place to post your question, Michelle, would be in rec.gardening. The legal situation in the U.S. will probably be quite different to the U.K. But morally it would be the same, and I think it is a shame that it was allowed to get to this situation in the first place. Three years ago, my neighbours were storing a canoe up against the chain link fence that separates our backyards. It was an eyesore. My opinion is that I have no right complaining to my neighbours about what they do on their own property, so I took a pro-active approach instead. I planted some Silver Lace vines on the chain link fence. This worked very well and by the end of summer it hid the canoe, and it looked really nice. It would have been better for you to have asked them politely in the first place if it was possible to store the canoe in a less obvious position. They may simply not have realised it was causing a problem for you. If on the other hand they decided it was their backyard and they would put things where they wanted to, then you at least would have had the measure of the type of neighbour you have next door to you. The following year, they got rid of the canoe and planted a flower garden in its place. Even though I no longer needed the vines, they looked so beautiful that I kept them. Did you consider, as they were new neighbours that maybe they were busy interior decorating, and as is the case in a lot of new house owners, the garden (or yard) has a tendency to be the last thing cleaned up? Considering the wide range of plants, shrubs and screening material that is available these days, I am surprised that you chose a vine to cover the fence, most urban gardeners I know spend hours trying to get rid of the stuff, not buying it in! And under you own admission, you have to cut your side back every two to three weeks, which is quite often compared to most other plants in the garden. In the U.K. you would not be legally obliged or allowed to cut your vine on their side of the property, but you would be legally obliged to accept back any trimmings of your vine that they had cut from their side. But ask yourself is it fair that you have made more work in their garden for your pleasure? Especially as the original problem was sorted and replaced with less objectionable plants and shrubs. During the Christmas holidays, I invited these neighbours over for a holiday drink, and James said "Michelle, you're going to have to do something about those vines." When I asked him what he meant, he said that the vines were growing into their yard and are strangling their plants. Its a shame you didn't admit to planting the vines to cover the "eyesore" canoe at this point, this may have invoked an "I'm sorry you should have said" response. Again another lost opportunity. I changed the topic and wasn't the same for the rest of the evening. I was insulted that they would come into my home, drink my wine, and use it as an opportunity to criticize me. Plus, it's winter! Why is he bringing that up in the middle of winter? But you invited them to drink your wine and eat your food???? Winter is a good time to talk about plants and flowers, something to look forward to. To be honest if I were you, I'd swallow my pride and remove the vines (if it is possible by now as they seem quite established), before they inadvertently "catch " your vine with weed killer! You said in a later post that the neighbour complained about trees blocking the light and the mess of the leaves in the autumn, well they must have realised that when they viewed and purchased the property, so they have no grounds to complain. -- (remove the troll to reply) Always look on the bright side of life (De do, de do, de doody doody do) "Michelle C" wrote in message ... snip Now, three years later, they are a magnificent backdrop to the rest of my flower garden. It's a backdrop to their flower garden too, and they didn't even have to pay for it. snip I told him that it's a vine, and all vines need trimming occasionally. I told him I trim my side of the vine every two or three weeks in the summer, and it only takes about five minutes each time. I said that's a small price to pay for having such a beautiful plant that is covering what was an ugly chain link fence. He told me that he and his wife shouldn't have to trim it at all, because it was my vine. He said if I were willing to trim it on their side of the fence from now on, they wouldn't have a problem with it, but if I don't do this, I'd have to "do something about my vines". He of course means I should kill the plants to make him happy. snip I have already decided that I will trim the vines on their side of the fence. But now I'm wondering who is right, and who is wrong, in this situation? Am I right to think my neighbors are cranky? Does the law obligate me to trim vines that enter my neighbors yard? Should they accept the minor chore of vine trimming in return for having such a beautiful backdrop (their words) to their garden? TIA! Michelle |
"Michelle C" wrote in message ... Three years ago, my neighbors were storing a canoe up against the chain link fence that separates our backyards. It was an eyesore. My opinion is that I have no right complaining to my neighbors about what they do on their own property, so I took a pro-active approach instead. I planted some Silver Lace vines on the chain link fence. This worked very well and by the end of summer it hid the canoe, and it looked really nice. The following year, they got rid of the canoe and planted a flower garden in its place. Even though I no longer needed the vines, they looked so beautiful that I kept them. Now, three years later, they are a magnificent backdrop to the rest of my flower garden. It's a backdrop to their flower garden too, and they didn't even have to pay for it. During the Christmas holidays, I invited these neighbors over for a holiday drink, and James said "Michelle, you're going to have to do something about those vines." When I asked him what he meant, he said that the vines were growing into their yard and are strangling their plants. I told him that it's a vine, and all vines need trimming occasionally. I told him I trim my side of the vine every two or three weeks in the summer, and it only takes about five minutes each time. I said that's a small price to pay for having such a beautiful plant that is covering what was an ugly chain link fence. He told me that he and his wife shouldn't have to trim it at all, because it was my vine. He said if I were willing to trim it on their side of the fence from now on, they wouldn't have a problem with it, but if I don't do this, I'd have to "do something about my vines". He of course means I should kill the plants to make him happy. I changed the topic and wasn't the same for the rest of the evening. I was insulted that they would come into my home, drink my wine, and use it as an opportunity to criticize me. Plus, it's winter! Why is he bringing that up in the middle of winter? I have already decided that I will trim the vines on their side of the fence. But now I'm wondering who is right, and who is wrong, in this situation? Am I right to think my neighbors are cranky? Does the law obligate me to trim vines that enter my neighbors yard? Should they accept the minor chore of vine trimming in return for having such a beautiful backdrop (their words) to their garden? TIA! Michelle As far as I'm aware, in Britain the neighbours would not be able to stop you growing vines along your fence, although they can obliterate any part of it that overhangs their garden. Personally I don't take well to threats, so if your neighbour made a veiled threat to "do something" about your vines whilst standing in your home and accepting your hospitality I'd become very resistant to doing his will....you were the person he made these comments to, only you can give them any context. You are in a bit of a spot because your neighbour has the ability to ruin your life ( and his ) by turning this into a feud, so consider your approach carefully. The only thing I would say was to consider if you are causing a nuisance to him in some way, obviously you like the vines but he obviously resents doing that sort of gardening. How about a third course of action: you keep the vines, but put a 6 foot wooden fence behind them? That way, as long as you chop them off at the top every few weeks, your neighbours cannot moan. It's a little expense to go to on your part, but keeps your vines and pride! Andy. |
In article , Janet Baraclough
writes Didn't you read the header OR the thread ? The poster Kay correctly advised, is seeking information specific to American law. The mailing was about vines and neighbour/garden relationships, topics often discussed here. -- Alan & Joan Gould - North Lincs. |
In article ,
wrote: On 10 Jan 2005 21:22:34 GMT, (Nick Maclaren) wrote: In article , Janet Baraclough wrote: The message from "Michelle C" contains these words: I'm in the USA. I realize that our laws are often different, and what applies in the U.K. may not apply here. I'm just curious. (You don't call them "yards" in the U.K.?) No, we went metric. I deny that my yard has ever been metricated. Square rod shirley? My rod is a perfectly normal shape, thank you. And her name isn't Shirley. Regards, Nick Maclaren. [ Yes, I know that I am being ridiculous, and pedantically vulgar, but this thread justifies it. ] Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
your neighbour sounds like a bit of a grumpy old dude - just rise above it and in spring merrily trim the vines on their side with a beaming smile. whistle while you do it, too. grumpy people hate that.
I would remove the vines though, as advised above. they will just get bigger, as will the problem! there must be plenty of pretty non-invasive climbers in america, you could look on it as an opportunity to experiment... bob |
"Michelle C" wrote in message ... obligate Just a matter of curiosity - is that an accepted american word? Does it have a specific meaning or is it the same as 'oblige'? (To oblige someone to do something is to put a duty upon them to do it) -- Kay "Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river" |
In article , Michelle C
writes None of which you mentioned in your original post and none of which have anything to do with a Polygonum eating some of your neighbour's plants. Yes, it's known as "additional" information. I supplied it because I thought it would help people to better understand the situation. Am I not allowed to do that? If you have a garden big enough to house mature oaks and elms in the plural, then I can't imagine you and your neighbours need to have much to do with each other unless you choose to do so. Except when it comes to their petty complaints. Complaints, yes, but who is to say they are petty? Lack of sun on a swimming pool I can understand might be a disappointment - OK, maybe they should have thought about it before installing, but they didn't, so it's always worth the asking. Having 17 -26 times a year to cut down a plant which is not of your choosing and doesn't belong to you is a pretty big irritation. Being able to see a canoe from your garden? Well, beside that, lack of sun and extra work clearly pales completely into insignificance. -- Kay "Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river" |
In article ,
Kay wrote: "Michelle C" wrote in message ... obligate Just a matter of curiosity - is that an accepted american word? Does it have a specific meaning or is it the same as 'oblige'? (To oblige someone to do something is to put a duty upon them to do it) Dunno, but it's a perfectly good English word, with the meaning that you assume (often used in a legal or semi-legal sense). It may be most often used as an adjective, but it has been a perfectly good verb since 1533. Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
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No, Janet, you are wrong. You are focusing on one small part of my post and
pretending it is the reason for my post. My problem, as Alan and others have already pointed out to you and Kay, is one of gardening etiquette and neighbor relations. I've already said that the laws in the U.K. do not apply in the USA. I'm looking for opinions, not legal advice. Thanks anyway, and have a great day The part Kay replied to was the short paragraph containing the question, "Does the law obligate me to trim vines that enter my neighbors yard? " Janet. |
In article , Michelle C
writes No, Janet, you are wrong. You are focusing on one small part of my post and pretending it is the reason for my post. Excuse me. I am the best person to verify or not Janet's statement "The part Kay replied to was the short paragraph containing the question, "Does the law obligate me to trim vines that enter my neighbors yard? " That is indeed the part I was replying to. I was concerned that you were unaware that this was a UK newsgroup (as several of your compatriots have been) and that you would take any advice relating to the law in the UK as applying to your country, which of course it would not. My problem, as Alan and others have already pointed out to you and Kay, is one of gardening etiquette and neighbor relations. I've already said that the laws in the U.K. do not apply in the USA. I'm looking for opinions, not legal advice. In your original post you asked several questions: "But now I'm wondering who is right, and who is wrong, in this situation? Am I right to think my neighbors are cranky? Does the law obligate me to trim vines that enter my neighbors yard? Should they accept the minor chore of vine trimming in return for having such a beautiful backdrop (their words) to their garden?" It wasn't till a later post that you said that you were looking for opinions and that you were aware that the law as we know it (ie UK) would not apply. Your original post read as a request for your legal position, and this is not the best ng for that. -- Kay "Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river" |
Hello Janet,
Tuesday, January 11, 2005, 6:32:09 PM, you wrote: JB Perhaps you hadn't had a baby I'm a man or was the last time I looked. JB conveyanced property or land, Nope. JB employed any building trades, Yes, I had some plaster repaired in my ceiling before leaving Glasgow and he said it would need two and a half feet of new plaster! JB used a modern recipe book, Yes, frequently and most are still in metric and imperial. JB or ordered anything made to measure for quite some time beforehand? Yes, and again a combination of yards and metres was used. Anyway it was "Yards" that were mentioned, albeit garden yards as I said in my next mail and asked that this one be ignored ;-) As far as I know the UK still uses yards, feet and miles. Other measurements weren't part of the message. -- Best regards, Richard (remove NS to reply) mailto:richard.wakeford@wanadoNS/fr |
In article , Janet Baraclough
writes The OP chose her own header. The OP didn't once mention USA in the header or in the message. -- Alan & Joan Gould - North Lincs. |
"Michelle C" wrote in message ... Three years ago, my neighbors were storing a canoe up against the chain link fence that separates our backyards. It was an eyesore. My opinion is that I have no right complaining to my neighbors about what they do on their own property, so I took a pro-active approach instead. I planted some Silver Lace vines on the chain link fence. This worked very well and by the end of summer it hid the canoe, and it looked really nice. snip He told me that he and his wife shouldn't have to trim it at all, because it was my vine. snip IMHO and IME you are wrong and they are right :-) i think they were being bit petty to be honest, for example they could have said 'do you mind if we trim your vines', but suppose it was any other sort of invasive weed or tall tree, it would definitely be your responsibility so i thinks its just that they are small that makes you think you dont have to do it. IME you have made a start getting on good terms with them so get over your annoyance, trim the vines and invite them back. -- Tumbleweed email replies not necessary but to contact use; tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com |
"Michelle C" wrote in message ... snip Agree to remove the vines if they're willing to replace them with something just as pleasing ... ( 10 foot brick wall with razor wire on the top! (joke)) ... if they decline your offer you can still remove the vines but give them something worse to moan about ... start a compost heap by the fence with the optimum benefit of view et. al. for them righ up against the fence. If they then complain ... just shrug and point out 'politely of course' they asked for it! Obviously this may cause some conflict with your neighbours so choose this course with care. As for them complaining about your trees which were there long before their pool, you could ask if they had the sense to notice this issue before they installed it ... and that they can purchase pool covers for when autumn occurs as it has occurred quite often in the past ... I think it happens yearly! Seriously though, you can only go so far to be accomodating as we all have to live with each other ... but it's finding where to draw the line that is hardest sometimes. -- p00kie -- |
"Michelle C" wrote in message ... None of which you mentioned in your original post and none of which have anything to do with a Polygonum eating some of your neighbour's plants. Yes, it's known as "additional" information. I supplied it because I thought it would help people to better understand the situation. Am I not allowed to do that? If you have a garden big enough to house mature oaks and elms in the plural, then I can't imagine you and your neighbours need to have much to do with each other unless you choose to do so. Except when it comes to their petty complaints. Petty?!!? I'd be ****ed off if my next door neighbour did something that meant I had to some work every 2 to 3 weeks! I had originally envisaged it being a once or twice a year job, hence my comment about being petty. I think you are lucky they didnt just spray them with weedkiller and put it down to a disease. -- Tumbleweed email replies not necessary but to contact use; tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com |
"Tumbleweed" wrote in message ... "Michelle C" wrote in message ... Three years ago, my neighbors were storing a canoe up against the chain link fence that separates our backyards. It was an eyesore. My opinion is that I have no right complaining to my neighbors about what they do on their own property, so I took a pro-active approach instead. I planted some Silver Lace vines on the chain link fence. This worked very well and by the end of summer it hid the canoe, and it looked really nice. snip He told me that he and his wife shouldn't have to trim it at all, because it was my vine. snip IMHO and IME you are wrong and they are right :-) i think they were being bit petty to be honest, for example they could have said 'do you mind if we trim your vines', but suppose it was any other sort of invasive weed or tall tree, it would definitely be your responsibility so i thinks its just that they are small that makes you think you dont have to do it. Comment re 'petty' withdrawn now I understand its a once a fortnight job! -- Tumbleweed email replies not necessary but to contact use; tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com |
Petty?!!? I'd be ****ed off if my next door neighbour did something that
meant I had to some work every 2 to 3 weeks! I consider it petty. But then I like plants and gardening. I think you are lucky they didnt just spray them with weedkiller and put it down to a disease. That would be illegal in my country. But not in yours? |
On 11/1/05 9:32 pm, in article , "Michelle C"
wrote: Petty?!!? I'd be ****ed off if my next door neighbour did something that meant I had to some work every 2 to 3 weeks! I consider it petty. But then I like plants and gardening. I think you are lucky they didnt just spray them with weedkiller and put it down to a disease. That would be illegal in my country. But not in yours? You've had your two cents worth and more. And now ou are trolling IMO. What a surprise. Ask these questions in USA. What is legal in UK is of no importance to your (apparent) problem. -- Sacha www.hillhousenursery.co.uk South Devon (remove the weeds to email me) |
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