OK, explain it to a novice (me). I'm talking sawdust, grass clippings,
and non-animal scraps in a compost pile. You're talking carbon to
nitrogen ratios. Am I to assume that everything going into the pile
is carbon and I need something (?) containing nitrogen to add to it?
This is a problem I have had for years now - I can't get the compost
pile to produce enough heat for fast breakdown. (It does stay moist).
Out of frustration I even tried adding ammonium nitrate with very
little change. How do you measure carbon/nitrogen going into a compost
pile to get a ratio?
-Tiger

OK for starters there are many tables listing the various amounts
percentage -wise of common materials that would end up in a compost
pile. And also tables that list the ratio between their carbon and
nitrogen contents. All available on line and in many organic gardening
books.

For a fast compost pile you need a few things

1 A volume of at least 1 cu yd
(more would be better so you metric types can use a cubic meter)
2 An evenly moist pile like a wet but not dripping sponge
( moisten as you make the pile )
3 Shredded ,chopped or otherwise divided ingrediants to increase
their surface
area
4 Bacteria and Fungi (if you build it they will come)

5 Enough nitrogen for the bacteria and fungi to make the proteins
they need to be able to grow and reproduce.

Where the ratio of 30:1 comes from is 30 parts carbon to one part
nitrogen.
Which approximates 3 parts vegetable to one part animal.
This gives you plenty of nitrogen to make proteins so the bacteria can
multiply.
Too much nitrogen and you lose it to the atmosphere too little and
your pile never heats up.

The whole purpose behind having a pile heat up is to destroy weed
seeds and pathogens.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO MAKE A STEAMING HOT PILE TO RETURN ORGANIC MATERIALS
TO YOU SOIL
You could just turn it under, use it as mulch , spread it on the
fields , etc.

OK, explain it to a novice (me). I'm talking sawdust, grass clippings,
and non-animal scraps in a compost pile. You're talking carbon to
nitrogen ratios. Am I to assume that everything going into the pile
is carbon and I need something (?) containing nitrogen to add to it?
This is a problem I have had for years now - I can't get the compost
pile to produce enough heat for fast breakdown. (It does stay moist).
Out of frustration I even tried adding ammonium nitrate with very
little change. How do you measure carbon/nitrogen going into a compost
pile to get a ratio?
-Tiger

This is what I was taught:

Carbon is woody material.
Nitrogen is contained in green leafy material.

The bacteria that break down the carbon use nitrogen during the process, if
there is not enough nitrogen they cannot do their job.

A carbon : nitrogen ratio of (25-30) : 1 is required.
That is 25-30 times as much woody stuff to green stuff.

Urine contains nitrogen, so if you think you are short of nitrogen, you have
a free supply on tap (so to speak).

Bacteria also need oxygen, so you have to keep the heap well aerated by
turning it from time to time.

Peter


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On Mon, 30 Dec 2002 02:16:33 GMT, "Compostman"
wrote:

I don't understand why the emphasis on steer manure.

Me either! Nasty stuff! Most of the time it's not properly composted
and has components totally inappropriate for the garde. Excess salts
to name one



Regards,

tomj

"Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution.
Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages."

- Thomas Edison

In article ,
"Compostman" wrote:

I don't understand why the emphasis on steer manure. I live in a city and
there aren't any steers for miles. (And what's so special about manute from
castrated mall cattle?) How about elephant manure. The zoo here gives it
away. Shoud I insist on manture from castrated elephants? And I don't have
a rototiller. What should I do? This is one of those times when I wish I
had a television, so I could just watch that instead of having to deal with
the complications of trying to improve my soil. Here I've been adding
Starbucks coffee grounds to the top of my soil (no rototiller) and things
seem to be doing pretty well. Now I discover that without manure from
castrated cattle, I'm a failure.

Zoo Doo is fine. Most zoos don't give it away; they sell it to raise money
for the zoo. It's a good thing to buy, you help the garden & the zoo
simultaneously.

Rototiller can be rented cheaply, but if you've got a strong back, all ya
need's a shovel.

As for steer vs dairy manure composts:
1) Fully composted Dairy manure has one-third to one-half the amount of
nitrogen as does fully composted steer manure. 2) Fully composted dairy
manure has less than half the phosphorus of fully composted steer manure.
3) Steer manure also has slightly more potassium than dairy.

So the steer manure is measurably better, though either dairy or steer
manure will do the job well enough.

Composted chicken manure is better still, with twice the nitrogen of steer
manure compost & four times the nitrogen of dairy manure compost.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

"Compostman" wrote in message

I don't understand why the emphasis on steer manure. I live in a city and
there aren't any steers for miles.

That's why they invented Lowe's and Home Depot.

--
Travis in Shoreline (just North of Seattle) Washington
USDA Zone 8b
Sunset Zone 5

In article ,
Peter wrote:


The only common high nitrogen materials in compost come from kitchen
waste, dead animals and when you throw out a pack of MATURE dried
peas, beans etc. Almost everything else is fairly low. And nothing
less than putting large lumps of meat or dead animals on the heap is
likely to change the decomposition to being one dominated by the
protein-reducing organisms -

you lost me he What are the protein-reducing organisms? Otherwise, very
interesting!

Dunno! But then, I don't have a clue what more than a couple of
(probably thousands) of species of organism active in composting
are. The point is that different organisms are specialised for
different environments, and you get a very different mixture that
will break down most plant material than will break down meat.

In particular, organisms that break down complex proteins need to
be able to produce the enzymes that break the peptide (?) bonds to
reduce the proteins to usable components - and the typical plant
decomposition organisms can't do that.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren,
University of Cambridge Computing Service,
New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England.
Email:
Tel.: +44 1223 334761 Fax: +44 1223 334679

In article ,
Warwick Michael Dumas wrote:

This is an interesting thought but I don't get it. Do we agree "high
in nitrogen" ought to mean having an amount which is going to be
useful for growing?? In that case, how can grass, young plants etc not
be high in nitrogen? I mean, how can you need it to make some but not
get it if you break some?

No. In this context, "high nitrogen" is where a very large amount
(or even the majority) of the energy is tied up in the form of
protein rather than carbohydrates. It needs a different set of
bacteria to decompose it, and does tend to produce an evil stench
while decomposing - e.g. rotting meat stinks, even if exposed to
plenty of air, but plant material stinks only if it does not get
anough air.

Growing plants (including grass) are low enough in protein that only
specialised mammals can get all of their protein requirements from
them. Even non-growing adult humans slowly succumb to protein
deficiency on a diet of unlimited green material, and children do
so rapidly. Depending on the circumstances, even cows, rabbits and
so on may need extra protein if fed entirely on grass.



Regards,
Nick Maclaren,
University of Cambridge Computing Service,
New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England.
Email:
Tel.: +44 1223 334761 Fax: +44 1223 334679

In article ,
Beecrofter wrote:

OK for starters there are many tables listing the various amounts
percentage -wise of common materials that would end up in a compost
pile. And also tables that list the ratio between their carbon and
nitrogen contents. All available on line and in many organic gardening
books.

For a fast compost pile you need a few things

1 A volume of at least 1 cu yd
(more would be better so you metric types can use a cubic meter)
2 An evenly moist pile like a wet but not dripping sponge
( moisten as you make the pile )
3 Shredded ,chopped or otherwise divided ingrediants to increase
their surface
area
4 Bacteria and Fungi (if you build it they will come)

5 Enough nitrogen for the bacteria and fungi to make the proteins
they need to be able to grow and reproduce.

Where the ratio of 30:1 comes from is 30 parts carbon to one part
nitrogen.
Which approximates 3 parts vegetable to one part animal.
This gives you plenty of nitrogen to make proteins so the bacteria can
multiply.
Too much nitrogen and you lose it to the atmosphere too little and
your pile never heats up.

The whole purpose behind having a pile heat up is to destroy weed
seeds and pathogens.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO MAKE A STEAMING HOT PILE TO RETURN ORGANIC MATERIALS
TO YOU SOIL
You could just turn it under, use it as mulch , spread it on the
fields , etc.

The above is all true.

Sawdust ...
It ties up enough nitrogen to make a pile of grass clippings rot
without stinking.

The above is not. Firstly, you can compost pure grass clippings
without making a smell, simply by keeping them aerated. Secondly,
even sawdust will stink if you keep it so wet it is anaerobic
(though it will not smell as badly as many things). You can test
both out at home - I have.

The claim that you need a fixed proportion of nitrogen for effective
composting is pseudo-scientific nonsense. There is absolutely NO
point in reducing the proportion below that in grass clippings, and
mixing sawdust with them improves their composting by aeration and
not by diluting the protein.

This might NOT be the case if you were composting a large quantity
of mature pulses, household waste containing a lot of meat or manure.
In that case, diluting the protein could well be a good idea.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren,
University of Cambridge Computing Service,
New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England.
Email:
Tel.: +44 1223 334761 Fax: +44 1223 334679

In article ,
Peter wrote:

This is what I was taught:

Carbon is woody material.
Nitrogen is contained in green leafy material.

That is true, but there is less in green leafy material than you may
think. There is far more in mature pulses (and many other seeds)
and of course meat and animal waste.

The bacteria that break down the carbon use nitrogen during the process, if
there is not enough nitrogen they cannot do their job.

Also true.

A carbon : nitrogen ratio of (25-30) : 1 is required.
That is 25-30 times as much woody stuff to green stuff.

Neither is true. A ratio of something like that will decompose pretty
fast, but isn't needed. At the low end of the scale, the rate of
decomposition will be limited by the availability of nitrogen, but it
will proceed quite happily as long as there is SOME. And, because
green leaves contain far more carbohydrate than protein, you need
more like pure green leaves to get that ratio (depending on the leaves,
their state of growth etc.)

Urine contains nitrogen, so if you think you are short of nitrogen, you have
a free supply on tap (so to speak).

Quite :-) Or just sprinkle some general purpose fertiliser on.

Bacteria also need oxygen, so you have to keep the heap well aerated by
turning it from time to time.

MOST bacteria. The ones that work without oxygen tend to produce
more foul-smelling molecules than the ones that work with oxygen,
which is why the compaction of grass clippings causes a stinking
mess.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren,
University of Cambridge Computing Service,
New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England.
Email:
Tel.: +44 1223 334761 Fax: +44 1223 334679

(Nick Maclaren) wrote in message ...
In article ,
Warwick Michael Dumas wrote:

This is an interesting thought but I don't get it. Do we agree "high
in nitrogen" ought to mean having an amount which is going to be
useful for growing?? In that case, how can grass, young plants etc not
be high in nitrogen? I mean, how can you need it to make some but not
get it if you break some?

No. In this context, "high nitrogen" is where a very large amount
(or even the majority) of the energy is tied up in the form of
protein rather than carbohydrates. It needs a different set of
bacteria to decompose it, and does tend to produce an evil stench
while decomposing - e.g. rotting meat stinks, even if exposed to
plenty of air, but plant material stinks only if it does not get
anough air.

Growing plants (including grass) are low enough in protein that only
specialised mammals can get all of their protein requirements from
them. Even non-growing adult humans slowly succumb to protein
deficiency on a diet of unlimited green material, and children do
so rapidly. Depending on the circumstances, even cows, rabbits and
so on may need extra protein if fed entirely on grass.

Ah, now that makes sense, BUT, I don't care, because I'm not going to
try feeding any compost to children.

"emuir" wrote in
:

I'm told that putting green woodchips onto soil has the effect of drawing
out nutrients from the soil as they rot down. Does anybody know if they
same happens if sawdust from seasoned wood is added to soil. Has anybody
tried this to build up moisture retention in dry areas?


I was just reading up on how to care for my new Christmas blueberry bush
and find that a mulch of sawdust is recommended for these, as it apparently
helps keep up the acid levels in the soil. From this I would guess that it
might also be suitable for rhodos or azaleas and other acid-lovers if you
have those.

I do have a bed where I have used sawdust for mulching under a mature
conifer, but I've used such a mix of components in that mulch (newspaper,
turf, rabbit droppings, weeds, prunings, lawn mowings, horse manure, part-
rotted compost...) that I can't honestly say what part the sawdust played
in the whole process. Worked though!

--
Victoria Clare
gardening high up in South East Cornwall
http://www.clareassoc.co.uk/
--

This is true due to the fact that woodchips use up some nitrogen as they
rot. Same with sawdust. One the surface, the effect is fairly minimal.
Mixed into the soil, the effect is more pronounced.

Since woodchips and sawdust have little nutrition to contribute, and deplete
nitrogen, there is little benefit for most folks in mixing them into the
soil as organic matter if the wood product hasn't been previously composted.
They are better used as mulch in the uncomposted state.

If you are making an effort to keep your soil in good condition, the chips
or sawdust shouldn't hurt anything. You may pick up some acid as the
tannins are washed out of the wood by the rain, but that may be desirable in
some situations.


"Victoria Clare" wrote in message
.217...
"emuir" wrote in
:

I'm told that putting green woodchips onto soil has the effect of
drawing
out nutrients from the soil as they rot down. Does anybody know if they
same happens if sawdust from seasoned wood is added to soil. Has
anybody
tried this to build up moisture retention in dry areas?


I was just reading up on how to care for my new Christmas blueberry bush
and find that a mulch of sawdust is recommended for these, as it
apparently
helps keep up the acid levels in the soil. From this I would guess that
it
might also be suitable for rhodos or azaleas and other acid-lovers if you
have those.

I do have a bed where I have used sawdust for mulching under a mature
conifer, but I've used such a mix of components in that mulch (newspaper,
turf, rabbit droppings, weeds, prunings, lawn mowings, horse manure, part-
rotted compost...) that I can't honestly say what part the sawdust played
in the whole process. Worked though!

--
Victoria Clare
gardening high up in South East Cornwall
http://www.clareassoc.co.uk/
--