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How can I soften my water?
Hi All,
I seem to have a number of plants that prefer pure water (as opposed to our very hard tap water). I only have a very small garden and nowhere to easily catch rainwater. Is there anything I can do to treat the tapwater so as to remove the salts that my plants don't like. The sensitive plants are a Nepanthes & several Orchids. Thanks Matt |
Matt Durkin wrote:
:: Hi All, :: I seem to have a number of plants that prefer pure water (as opposed to :: our very hard tap water). :: I only have a very small garden and nowhere to easily catch rainwater. :: Is there anything I can do to treat the tapwater so as to remove the :: salts that my plants don't like. Use the rainwater from your house roof, you can get an adapter which fits onto your downspout and directs the rainwater into a water butt....the ones I've seen don't allow the butt to overflow and re-directs surplus water into your drains. -- If God had intended us to drink beer, He would have given us stomachs. |
Martin wrote:
:: On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 15:35:38 GMT, "Phil L" :: wrote: :: ::: Matt Durkin wrote: ::::: Hi All, ::::: I seem to have a number of plants that prefer pure water (as opposed ::::: to our very hard tap water). ::::: I only have a very small garden and nowhere to easily catch rainwater. ::::: Is there anything I can do to treat the tapwater so as to remove the ::::: salts that my plants don't like. ::: ::: Use the rainwater from your house roof, you can get an adapter which ::: fits onto your downspout and directs the rainwater into a water ::: butt....the ones I've seen don't allow the butt to overflow and ::: re-directs surplus water into your drains. :: :: Rainwater isn't necessarily soft. He mentioned collecting rainwater, so I assume his rainwater is softer than his tapwater -- If God had intended us to drink beer, He would have given us stomachs. |
On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 17:56:53 +0200, Martin wrote:
On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 15:48:15 GMT, "Phil L" wrote: Martin wrote: :: On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 15:35:38 GMT, "Phil L" :: wrote: :: ::: Matt Durkin wrote: ::::: Hi All, ::::: I seem to have a number of plants that prefer pure water (as opposed ::::: to our very hard tap water). ::::: I only have a very small garden and nowhere to easily catch rainwater. ::::: Is there anything I can do to treat the tapwater so as to remove the ::::: salts that my plants don't like. ::: ::: Use the rainwater from your house roof, you can get an adapter which ::: fits onto your downspout and directs the rainwater into a water ::: butt....the ones I've seen don't allow the butt to overflow and ::: re-directs surplus water into your drains. :: :: Rainwater isn't necessarily soft. He mentioned collecting rainwater, so I assume his rainwater is softer than his tapwater I wasn't sure if he realised just how acid rainwater can be in some places. I think you will find that rainwater is always soft, as hardness comes from the (calcium) rocks it may filter through. However acidity is another thing and you are correct to suggest that acidity (or lack of it) depends on the atmosphere that the rain has passed through. Tap water can be any combination of these depending where your water comes from, what the atmosphere was doing at the time the rain fell from the sky and how it was treated by the water company. Hardness can be temporary or permanent. I used to keep tropical fish and found acidity easy to determine with a ph kit, hardness on the other hand is a complicated beggar to test for. Your water company will tell you if you ask. -- Jim Tyneside UK |
"Jim Scott" wrote in message
... On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 17:56:53 +0200, Martin wrote: On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 15:48:15 GMT, "Phil L" wrote: Martin wrote: :: On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 15:35:38 GMT, "Phil L" :: wrote: :: ::: Matt Durkin wrote: ::::: Hi All, ::::: I seem to have a number of plants that prefer pure water (as opposed ::::: to our very hard tap water). ::::: I only have a very small garden and nowhere to easily catch rainwater. ::::: Is there anything I can do to treat the tapwater so as to remove the ::::: salts that my plants don't like. ::: ::: Use the rainwater from your house roof, you can get an adapter which ::: fits onto your downspout and directs the rainwater into a water ::: butt....the ones I've seen don't allow the butt to overflow and ::: re-directs surplus water into your drains. :: :: Rainwater isn't necessarily soft. He mentioned collecting rainwater, so I assume his rainwater is softer than his tapwater I wasn't sure if he realised just how acid rainwater can be in some places. I think you will find that rainwater is always soft, as hardness comes from the (calcium) rocks it may filter through. However acidity is another thing and you are correct to suggest that acidity (or lack of it) depends on the atmosphere that the rain has passed through. Tap water can be any combination of these depending where your water comes from, what the atmosphere was doing at the time the rain fell from the sky and how it was treated by the water company. Hardness can be temporary or permanent. I used to keep tropical fish and found acidity easy to determine with a ph kit, hardness on the other hand is a complicated beggar to test for. Your water company will tell you if you ask. -- Jim Tyneside UK Hi All, I'm not sure how acid my rain / tapwater is, but I do know my tapwater is very hard. I don't have anywhere I can collect rainwater as there's no space to put a water butt near my house (unfortunately). just wondered what my optios are with the stuff coming out of the tap! Cheers, Matt |
Major snippage
I'm not sure how acid my rain / tapwater is, but I do know my tapwater is very hard. I don't have anywhere I can collect rainwater as there's no space to put a water butt near my house (unfortunately). just wondered what my optios are with the stuff coming out of the tap! Cheers, Matt Catch the mel****er when you next defrost the freezer. Or defrost the freezer whenever you want to water the plants. Steve |
You could buy a water softener, or leave the tap water to stand in
buckets/watering cans for a few days which reduces some of the shit in the water we recieve. -- Thanks Keith,Nottingham,England,UK. "Matt Durkin" wrote in message ... "Jim Scott" wrote in message ... On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 17:56:53 +0200, Martin wrote: On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 15:48:15 GMT, "Phil L" wrote: Martin wrote: :: On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 15:35:38 GMT, "Phil L" :: wrote: :: ::: Matt Durkin wrote: ::::: Hi All, ::::: I seem to have a number of plants that prefer pure water (as opposed ::::: to our very hard tap water). ::::: I only have a very small garden and nowhere to easily catch rainwater. ::::: Is there anything I can do to treat the tapwater so as to remove the ::::: salts that my plants don't like. ::: ::: Use the rainwater from your house roof, you can get an adapter which ::: fits onto your downspout and directs the rainwater into a water ::: butt....the ones I've seen don't allow the butt to overflow and ::: re-directs surplus water into your drains. :: :: Rainwater isn't necessarily soft. He mentioned collecting rainwater, so I assume his rainwater is softer than his tapwater I wasn't sure if he realised just how acid rainwater can be in some places. I think you will find that rainwater is always soft, as hardness comes from the (calcium) rocks it may filter through. However acidity is another thing and you are correct to suggest that acidity (or lack of it) depends on the atmosphere that the rain has passed through. Tap water can be any combination of these depending where your water comes from, what the atmosphere was doing at the time the rain fell from the sky and how it was treated by the water company. Hardness can be temporary or permanent. I used to keep tropical fish and found acidity easy to determine with a ph kit, hardness on the other hand is a complicated beggar to test for. Your water company will tell you if you ask. -- Jim Tyneside UK Hi All, I'm not sure how acid my rain / tapwater is, but I do know my tapwater is very hard. I don't have anywhere I can collect rainwater as there's no space to put a water butt near my house (unfortunately). just wondered what my optios are with the stuff coming out of the tap! Cheers, Matt |
"Phil L" wrote in message . uk... Matt Durkin wrote: :: Hi All, :: I seem to have a number of plants that prefer pure water (as opposed to :: our very hard tap water). :: I only have a very small garden and nowhere to easily catch rainwater. :: Is there anything I can do to treat the tapwater so as to remove the :: salts that my plants don't like. Use the rainwater from your house roof, you can get an adapter which fits onto your downspout and directs the rainwater into a water butt....the ones I've seen don't allow the butt to overflow and re-directs surplus water into your drains. Phil, OP mentions NOT having room for a water butt ......... I wonder if boiled (then cooled!) water would do ? Or maybe water sold for irons? Jenny |
JennyC wrote:
:: "Phil L" wrote in message :: . uk... ::: Matt Durkin wrote: ::::: Hi All, ::::: I seem to have a number of plants that prefer pure water (as opposed ::::: to our very hard tap water). ::::: I only have a very small garden and nowhere to easily catch rainwater. ::::: Is there anything I can do to treat the tapwater so as to remove the ::::: salts that my plants don't like. ::: ::: Use the rainwater from your house roof, you can get an adapter which ::: fits onto your downspout and directs the rainwater into a water ::: butt....the ones I've seen don't allow the butt to overflow and ::: re-directs surplus water into your drains. :: :: Phil, OP mentions NOT having room for a water butt ......... I read it as him having nowhere to collect it *from*, IE a shed or greenhouse roof :: :: I wonder if boiled (then cooled!) water would do ? :: Or maybe water sold for irons? :: Jenny TBH I can't imagine that any plants would care one way or another, many animals are water based (us included) and hardness/softness is of no importance! -- If God had intended us to drink beer, He would have given us stomachs. |
You are Wrong!
-- Thanks Keith,Nottingham,England,UK. "Phil L" wrote in message . uk... JennyC wrote: :: "Phil L" wrote in message :: . uk... ::: Matt Durkin wrote: ::::: Hi All, ::::: I seem to have a number of plants that prefer pure water (as opposed ::::: to our very hard tap water). ::::: I only have a very small garden and nowhere to easily catch rainwater. ::::: Is there anything I can do to treat the tapwater so as to remove the ::::: salts that my plants don't like. ::: ::: Use the rainwater from your house roof, you can get an adapter which ::: fits onto your downspout and directs the rainwater into a water ::: butt....the ones I've seen don't allow the butt to overflow and ::: re-directs surplus water into your drains. :: :: Phil, OP mentions NOT having room for a water butt ......... I read it as him having nowhere to collect it *from*, IE a shed or greenhouse roof :: :: I wonder if boiled (then cooled!) water would do ? :: Or maybe water sold for irons? :: Jenny TBH I can't imagine that any plants would care one way or another, many animals are water based (us included) and hardness/softness is of no importance! -- If God had intended us to drink beer, He would have given us stomachs. |
keith ;-) wrote:
:: "Phil L" wrote in message :: . uk... ::: JennyC wrote: ::::: "Phil L" wrote in message ::::: . uk... :::::: Matt Durkin wrote: :::::::: Hi All, :::::::: I seem to have a number of plants that prefer pure water (as :::::::: opposed to our very hard tap water). :::::::: I only have a very small garden and nowhere to easily catch :::::::: rainwater. Is there anything I can do to treat the tapwater so as :::::::: to remove the salts that my plants don't like. :::::: :::::: Use the rainwater from your house roof, you can get an adapter which :::::: fits onto your downspout and directs the rainwater into a water :::::: butt....the ones I've seen don't allow the butt to overflow and :::::: re-directs surplus water into your drains. ::::: ::::: Phil, OP mentions NOT having room for a water butt ......... ::: ::: I read it as him having nowhere to collect it *from*, IE a shed or ::: greenhouse roof ::: ::::: ::::: I wonder if boiled (then cooled!) water would do ? ::::: Or maybe water sold for irons? ::::: Jenny ::: ::: TBH I can't imagine that any plants would care one way or another, many ::: animals are water based (us included) and hardness/softness is of no ::: importance! :: You are Wrong! :: :: -- :: Thanks Keith,Nottingham,England,UK. Aside from top posting which I won't mention(!) would you like to elaborate, or are you saying that *everything* I've typed is incorrect? -- If God had intended us to drink beer, He would have given us stomachs. |
"Phil L" wrote in message . uk... keith ;-) wrote: :: "Phil L" wrote in message :: . uk... ::: JennyC wrote: ::::: "Phil L" wrote in message ::::: . uk... :::::: Matt Durkin wrote: :::::::: Hi All, :::::::: I seem to have a number of plants that prefer pure water (as :::::::: opposed to our very hard tap water). :::::::: I only have a very small garden and nowhere to easily catch :::::::: rainwater. Is there anything I can do to treat the tapwater so as :::::::: to remove the salts that my plants don't like. :::::: :::::: Use the rainwater from your house roof, you can get an adapter which :::::: fits onto your downspout and directs the rainwater into a water :::::: butt....the ones I've seen don't allow the butt to overflow and :::::: re-directs surplus water into your drains. ::::: ::::: Phil, OP mentions NOT having room for a water butt ......... ::: ::: I read it as him having nowhere to collect it *from*, IE a shed or ::: greenhouse roof ::: ::::: ::::: I wonder if boiled (then cooled!) water would do ? ::::: Or maybe water sold for irons? ::::: Jenny ::: ::: TBH I can't imagine that any plants would care one way or another, many ::: animals are water based (us included) and hardness/softness is of no ::: importance! :: You are Wrong! :: :: -- :: Thanks Keith,Nottingham,England,UK. Aside from top posting which I won't mention(!) would you like to elaborate, or are you saying that *everything* I've typed is incorrect? -- If God had intended us to drink beer, He would have given us stomachs. Don't you find top posting easier to read,I click reply to post ,type my message & click send! its that easy. You are wrong saying hardness/softness is of no importance to plants.Most if not all plants would prefer rain water obviously to tap water. The OP was referring to nepanthes & orchids which definitely prefer rainwater,hard/alkaline water can lock up important minerals,so the plant would suffer over time. Keith |
keith ;-) wrote:
[...] Don't you find top posting easier to read,I click reply to post ,type my message & click send! its that easy. [...] Because it confuses me. Why don't you like top-posting? -- Mike. |
keith ;-) wrote:
:: "Phil L" wrote in message :: . uk... ::: keith ;-) wrote: ::::: "Phil L" wrote in message ::::: . uk... :::::: JennyC wrote: :::::::: "Phil L" wrote in message :::::::: . uk... ::::::::: Matt Durkin wrote: ::::::::::: Hi All, ::::::::::: I seem to have a number of plants that prefer pure water (as ::::::::::: opposed to our very hard tap water). ::::::::::: I only have a very small garden and nowhere to easily catch ::::::::::: rainwater. Is there anything I can do to treat the tapwater so ::::::::::: as to remove the salts that my plants don't like. ::::::::: ::::::::: Use the rainwater from your house roof, you can get an adapter ::::::::: which fits onto your downspout and directs the rainwater into a ::::::::: water butt....the ones I've seen don't allow the butt to overflow ::::::::: and re-directs surplus water into your drains. :::::::: :::::::: Phil, OP mentions NOT having room for a water butt ......... :::::: :::::: I read it as him having nowhere to collect it *from*, IE a shed or :::::: greenhouse roof :::::: :::::::: :::::::: I wonder if boiled (then cooled!) water would do ? :::::::: Or maybe water sold for irons? :::::::: Jenny :::::: :::::: TBH I can't imagine that any plants would care one way or another, :::::: many animals are water based (us included) and hardness/softness is :::::: of no importance! ::: ::::: You are Wrong! ::::: ::::: -- ::::: Thanks Keith,Nottingham,England,UK. ::: ::: ::: ::: Aside from top posting which I won't mention(!) would you like to ::: elaborate, or are you saying that *everything* I've typed is incorrect? ::: ::: ::: -- ::: If God had intended us to drink beer, He would have given us stomachs. ::: ::: Don't you find top posting easier to read,I click reply to post ,type my :: message & click send! its that easy. So do I but when I start a reply, my cursor is placed at the bottom, where I've typed 'ZXZ' in this post, and people can follow the natural flow of information from top to bottom :: You are wrong saying hardness/softness is of no importance to :: plants.Most if not all plants would prefer rain water obviously to tap :: water. The OP was referring to nepanthes & orchids which definitely :: prefer rainwater,hard/alkaline water can lock up important minerals,so :: the plant would suffer over time. :: Keith Call me an old cynic but water is water! - and I said I doubt if any plants could care either way, how can dissolved calcium and magnesium be of any detriment to a plant? - it either utilises them or it doesn't, unless they are active poisons to a plant I can't see how they would suffer. -- If God had intended us to drink beer, He would have given us stomachs. ZXZ |
Mike Lyle wrote:
:: keith ;-) wrote: :: [...] :::: Don't you find top posting easier to read,I click reply to post :::: ,type my ::: message & click send! its that easy. :: [...] :: :: Because it confuses me. :: Why don't you like top-posting? :: HTH :-p makes following a thread almost impossible are involved but when others join into a conversation it upside down, it's OK for email where only two people top posting is bad because you have to read the messages -- If God had intended us to drink beer, He would have given us stomachs. |
Phil L wrote:
keith ;-) wrote: [...] You are wrong saying hardness/softness is of no importance to plants.Most if not all plants would prefer rain water obviously to tap water. The OP was referring to nepanthes & orchids which definitely prefer rainwater,hard/alkaline water can lock up important minerals,so the plant would suffer over time. Keith Call me an old cynic but water is water! - and I said I doubt if any plants could care either way, how can dissolved calcium and magnesium be of any detriment to a plant? - it either utilises them or it doesn't, unless they are active poisons to a plant I can't see how they would suffer. Depends how you define poison: on one crude definition, lime _is_ poison to some plants, for the reason keith mentioned. -- Mike. |
In article , keith ;-) ?@?.?
writes Don't you find top posting easier to read,I click reply to post ,type my message & click send! its that easy. Whatever your preference, the convention in this ng is 'bottom' or in- line posting, with appropriate snipping, which allows you to answer each point as it is made. You are wrong saying hardness/softness is of no importance to plants.Most if not all plants would prefer rain water obviously to tap water. I'm not sure it's necessarily that obvious, or 'most if not all'. The OP was referring to nepanthes & orchids which definitely prefer rainwater,hard/alkaline water can lock up important minerals,so the plant would suffer over time. -- Kay "Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river" |
In article , Phil L
writes Call me an old cynic but water is water! - and I said I doubt if any plants could care either way, how can dissolved calcium and magnesium be of any detriment to a plant? - it either utilises them or it doesn't, unless they are active poisons to a plant I can't see how they would suffer. As Keith said, the calcium can lock up necessary minerals, (IIRC iron). -- Kay "Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river" |
"keith ;-)" wrote in message ... You could buy a water softener, or leave the tap water to stand in buckets/watering cans for a few days which reduces some of the shit in the water we recieve. it wont affect the hardness at all. -- Tumbleweed email replies not necessary but to contact use; tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com |
"Kay" wrote in message
... In article , keith ;-) ?@?.? writes Don't you find top posting easier to read,I click reply to post ,type my message & click send! its that easy. Whatever your preference, the convention in this ng is 'bottom' or in- line posting, with appropriate snipping, which allows you to answer each point as it is made. You are wrong saying hardness/softness is of no importance to plants.Most if not all plants would prefer rain water obviously to tap water. I'm not sure it's necessarily that obvious, or 'most if not all'. The OP was referring to nepanthes & orchids which definitely prefer rainwater,hard/alkaline water can lock up important minerals,so the plant would suffer over time. -- Kay "Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river" Posting etiquette aside, anyone know how to soften tapwater? ;O) Defrosting freezer - mine doesn't frost up ever. Letting tapwater stand - doesn't actually soften it. Brittas filter - apparently does sod all as far as plants are concerned. Iron water - never heard of it - what is it, and where can it be purchased. I wonder if it's the same as car battery water. I had a pitcher plant that I watered with this a few years ago. Maybe I should look into that again. I thought it was rather expensive for water, and I wasn't entirely sure if it was suitable... Matt |
On 18/7/05 21:01, in article ,
"Matt Durkin" wrote: snip Iron water - never heard of it - what is it, and where can it be purchased. snip Distilled water and from the chemist. Washing soda is used to soften water but whether that is suitable for your purpose, I don't know. "Washing soda is sodium carbonate. Adding sodium carbonate to hard water will precipitate insoluble calcium carbonate or magnesium carbonate. This is a way of removing permanent hardness from water." http://www.gcsechemistry.com/f5.htm -- Sacha (remove the weeds for email) |
I am taking the p### about top posting, I mostly forget as you have to mess
about deleting lines etc.I will of course do my best to remember & keep the message flowing nicely! Thanks Keith Phil L it really does matter about the water,continues tap water to a orchid or bog plant/ acid lovers could seriously harm the plants over time.For short periods is o.k ,but long term not. "Kay" wrote in message ... In article , keith ;-) ?@?.? writes Don't you find top posting easier to read,I click reply to post ,type my message & click send! its that easy. Whatever your preference, the convention in this ng is 'bottom' or in- line posting, with appropriate snipping, which allows you to answer each point as it is made. You are wrong saying hardness/softness is of no importance to plants.Most if not all plants would prefer rain water obviously to tap water. I'm not sure it's necessarily that obvious, or 'most if not all'. The OP was referring to nepanthes & orchids which definitely prefer rainwater,hard/alkaline water can lock up important minerals,so the plant would suffer over time. -- Kay "Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river" |
On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 22:31:50 GMT, "Phil L"
wrote: Call me an old cynic but water is water! - and I said I doubt if any plants could care either way, how can dissolved calcium and magnesium be of any detriment to a plant? - it either utilises them or it doesn't, unless they are active poisons to a plant I can't see how they would suffer. AFAIK, small amounts of dissolved calcium and magnesium aren't themselves harmful to the majority of plants (or any?). It's the high pH that often (but not always) accompanies them that renders insoluble, other important elements (mainly iron and manganese) in the soil or compost and hence unavailable to certain plants that need more than other types (ericaceous plants are the obvious example). So the plant suffers and the foliage usually turns yellow (chlorosis). Hardness of water is described as either temporary or permanent. Both types reduce the ability of soap to lather because of the presence of calcium and magnesium ions in solution. Temporary hardness is caused by the bicarbonates of calcium and magnesium, and is called temporary because boiling the water drives off carbon dioxide and allows calcium or magnesium carbonate to precipitate (e.g. as lime scale), so allowing the soap to lather more easily. But the pH of the water will actually rise. Permanent hardness is caused by the sulphates or chlorides of calcium or magnesium. Boiling will not precipitate them, but the pH of such water isn't necessarily high anyway. If in doubt, check the pH of your tap water, that's the key point here. Use a colour indicator kit obtainable at most garden centres. -- Chris E-mail: christopher[dot]hogg[at]virgin[dot]net |
Martin wrote:
On Mon, 18 Jul 2005 20:01:07 GMT, "Matt Durkin" wrote: [...] . Iron water - never heard of it - what is it, and where can it be purchased. Ionised water? Any garage. [...] And de-ionised water is even better. Any garage. -- Mike. |
Martin wrote:
On Mon, 18 Jul 2005 20:01:07 GMT, "Matt Durkin" wrote: "Kay" wrote in message ... Posting etiquette aside, anyone know how to soften tapwater? ;O) Defrosting freezer - mine doesn't frost up ever. Letting tapwater stand - doesn't actually soften it. Brittas filter - apparently does sod all as far as plants are concerned. Actually it replaces calcium ions with sodium, but plants that are sensitive to excessive dissolved salts will still not like it much. The salts build up near the surface of the soil as water evaporates forming a crust. Iron water - never heard of it - what is it, and where can it be purchased. Ionised water? Any garage. De-ionised water - although rainwater is much very cheaper and easily available with a little effort for watering plants. Not good enough for car batteries though which can potentially be damaged by even traces of common salt from sweat (or tapwater). I wonder if it's the same as car battery water. I had a pitcher plant that I watered with this a few years ago. Maybe I should look into that again. I thought it was rather expensive for water, and I wasn't entirely sure if it was suitable... Natural rainwater is perfectly OK. You don't want it too pure either. NB De-ionised water isn't too good to drink since it may be deionised but it can still contain organic residues from the exchange column. Regards, Martin Brown |
"Sacha" wrote in message .uk... On 18/7/05 21:01, in article , "Matt Durkin" wrote: snip Iron water - never heard of it - what is it, and where can it be purchased. snip Distilled water and from the chemist. Thanks Sacha. I've been away from England too laomg, and could not for the life of me remember the word ! Jenny |
On Mon, 18 Jul 2005 21:03:44 +0100, Sacha
wrote: "Washing soda is sodium carbonate. Adding sodium carbonate to hard water will precipitate insoluble calcium carbonate or magnesium carbonate. This is a way of removing permanent hardness from water." ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^ Indeed it is. But it will make the water even more alkaline (i.e. it will raise its pH). This is bad news for plants that can't tolerate a high pH in their soil, such as ericaceous plants. The water may be 'soft' in terms of soap lather, but it's no good for so-called 'lime hating plants' (a misnomer if ever there was one). -- Chris E-mail: christopher[dot]hogg[at]virgin[dot]net |
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