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clematis planting
When's the best time of year to plant a clematis?
ROSIE |
clematis planting
Rosie wrote:
When's the best time of year to plant a clematis? ROSIE ISTR September -- Dublin, Ireland (remove the obvious to email) |
clematis planting
"Rosie" wrote in message ... When's the best time of year to plant a clematis? ROSIE If they are container grown then they can be planted at any time the ground is not completely frozen. Spring planted plants may need watering their first summer. -- Charlie, gardening in Cornwall. http://www.roselandhouse.co.uk Holders of National Plant Collection of Clematis viticella (cvs) |
clematis planting
"Rosie" wrote in message
... When's the best time of year to plant a clematis? ROSIE Not sure when but you should plant them deep unlike most other plants so that if they get clematis wilt, they will grow back from beneath the ground. Martin |
clematis planting
In message , Martin Sykes
writes "Rosie" wrote in message ... When's the best time of year to plant a clematis? ROSIE Not sure when but you should plant them deep unlike most other plants so that if they get clematis wilt, they will grow back from beneath the ground. And put a 4-5" pot with the bottom cut out upside down round the roots to keep the sun off (and the cats from spraying them). -- Tony Morgan |
clematis planting
In article , Rosie
writes When's the best time of year to plant a clematis? ROSIE Autumn, but early autumn, IIRC. The idea is that they don't need quite so much water - a new plant planted in late spring will need daily watering for six weeks. Early spring (but not in frozen ground) is next best. -- Jane Lumley |
clematis planting
In article , Jane Lumley writes: | In article , Rosie | writes | When's the best time of year to plant a clematis? | | Autumn, but early autumn, IIRC. The idea is that they don't need quite | so much water - a new plant planted in late spring will need daily | watering for six weeks. Early spring (but not in frozen ground) is next | best. Back when we had drier weather, planting in sandy soil in Cambridge had to be done in autumn, as few plants would establish enough of a root system to survive the summer. But, now, with the incredibly wet weather, planting in autumn can cause the plants to get root root before they establish, so spring can be a better bet. This applies to many plants, though not all. Regards, Nick Maclaren, University of Cambridge Computing Service, New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England. Email: Tel.: +44 1223 334761 Fax: +44 1223 334679 |
clematis planting
In article , Jane Lumley
writes In article , Rosie writes When's the best time of year to plant a clematis? Autumn, but early autumn, IIRC. The idea is that they don't need quite so much water - a new plant planted in late spring will need daily watering for six weeks. Early spring (but not in frozen ground) is next best. I guess it depends on where you live. Here, in the Lake District where the rainfall is quite high even during the summer, it's not such a problem. In drier areas you might have to water regularly anyway even when the plant is established. Plant it well & add a pipe going down to the roots (fill it with stones) so you can pour water straight down to where it's needed. Some varieties will tolerate drier conditions than others too. And non of them like being waterlogged during the winter. As has been mentioned, container grown plants (not just clematis) can be planted at any time of the year provided the ground isn't frozen. In my experience, early autumn or spring - but when the ground has started to warm up is best. -- Rachel Clematis Web Site http://www.ukclematis.co.uk/ |
clematis planting
In message , Rachel Sullivan
writes Plant it well & add a pipe going down to the roots (fill it with stones) so you can pour water straight down to where it's needed. No doubt para 4 in the Planting directions help Barkers sell more clematis plants :-) Unless you plant with a little of the brown section at the bottom of the stem above ground, you can get disease or rot. Also cut the bottom out of a 3" or 4" pot and place upside down to keep the sun away from the roots. -- Tony Morgan |
clematis planting
"Tony Morgan" wrote in message ... In message , Rachel Sullivan writes Plant it well & add a pipe going down to the roots (fill it with stones) so you can pour water straight down to where it's needed. No doubt para 4 in the Planting directions help Barkers sell more clematis plants :-) Unless you plant with a little of the brown section at the bottom of the stem above ground, you can get disease or rot. Also cut the bottom out of a 3" or 4" pot and place upside down to keep the sun away from the roots. Why are you challenging what has long been "best advice" for planting clematis? Clearly you do not bury all the mature stem but the site advice: Plant deeper than the original container - not necessarily 2 or 3 inches deeper, but as much as it takes to get at least one other set of leaf nodes below the ground. We have done this since the plant was a cutting, and it has been potted on at least three times since then. Do it once more! is sound. The purpose is to ensure that there are growth buds below ground level, hence if the plant above ground dies off from clematis wilt there are buds available to regrow. pk (btw I've bought from Rachel's firm - and have another order in at the moment - plant quality, packing and delivery were all top notch! |
clematis planting
In article , Paul Kelly
writes "Tony Morgan" wrote in message ... In message , Rachel Sullivan writes Plant it well & add a pipe going down to the roots (fill it with stones) so you can pour water straight down to where it's needed. No doubt para 4 in the Planting directions help Barkers sell more clematis plants :-) G. I had to look it up - even though I wrote it! Did you mean the bit about not expecting too much in the first year, or even its second? Of course the idea is to sell plants, but it's even more important to give good advice. Clematis are not plants for instant gardeners - unless you buy enormous plants to start with. We do those too. Unless you plant with a little of the brown section at the bottom of the stem above ground, you can get disease or rot. I think planting deep is one of the important things about clematis and but is most especially relevant to the large flowered hybrids. It's certainly not as crucial for the species varieties, but even things like the atragenes can benefit from a little depth. Horrid mouses have had a wonderful time this winter gnawing through the stems - right at the base, of course! But they are coming up again from below the ground. I'm not sure what you mean about 'the brown section'. Some varieties do have this when young but generally speaking, young plants are green and don't develop a woody stem until much older. There are, of course, exceptions to this - atragenes/montanas for instance. I met a gardener here years ago who told me he plants his clematis *at least* 12 inches deep and has never had a loss. OK if you have nice depth of soil I suppose. Also cut the bottom out of a 3" or 4" pot and place upside down to keep the sun away from the roots. They don't care about the sun on their roots. They care about having plenty to drink. Planting a small herbaceous plant, or even a small shrub would give them the shade they like which helps to retain moisture. Upside down plant pots don't look aesthetically pleasing & the plant will still need watering as it gets established or during dry spells. Why are you challenging what has long been "best advice" for planting clematis? Clearly you do not bury all the mature stem but the site advice: Plant deeper than the original container - not necessarily 2 or 3 inches deeper, but as much as it takes to get at least one other set of leaf nodes below the ground. We have done this since the plant was a cutting, and it has been potted on at least three times since then. Do it once more! is sound. The purpose is to ensure that there are growth buds below ground level, hence if the plant above ground dies off from clematis wilt there are buds available to regrow. Not just wilt either. See mouses above. Also careless gardeners with strimmers, kids with footballs etc. Slender stems are easily damaged. (btw I've bought from Rachel's firm - and have another order in at the moment - plant quality, packing and delivery were all top notch! This is the scary thing about posting to newsgroups. You never know who you'll run across. :) Glad you were pleased - but we do try to put things right when things go wrong (as they invariably can). -- Rachel |
clematis planting
In message , Paul Kelly
writes "Tony Morgan" wrote in message ... In message , Rachel Sullivan writes Plant it well & add a pipe going down to the roots (fill it with stones) so you can pour water straight down to where it's needed. No doubt para 4 in the Planting directions help Barkers sell more clematis plants :-) Unless you plant with a little of the brown section at the bottom of the stem above ground, you can get disease or rot. Also cut the bottom out of a 3" or 4" pot and place upside down to keep the sun away from the roots. Why are you challenging what has long been "best advice" for planting clematis? Clearly you do not bury all the mature stem but the site advice: Plant deeper than the original container - not necessarily 2 or 3 inches deeper, but as much as it takes to get at least one other set of leaf nodes below the ground. We have done this since the plant was a cutting, and it has been potted on at least three times since then. Do it once more! is sound. Then I'm afraid we must agree to disagree. I've been growing clematis for 47 years, I can assure you that if you plant a set of leaf nodes below the surface and you have a wet spell within a week or so, then you can expect to get rot and lose the plant - not necessarily but there's a good possibly.. The purpose is to ensure that there are growth buds below ground level, hence if the plant above ground dies off from clematis wilt there are buds available to regrow. pk (btw I've bought from Rachel's firm - and have another order in at the moment - plant quality, packing and delivery were all top notch! Completely irrelevant. However, the thought does occur to me that the reason you're having to order more clematis is perhaps because you have lost previous plantings. -- Tony Morgan |
clematis planting
"Tony Morgan" wrote in message ... In message , Paul Kelly writes Completely irrelevant. However, the thought does occur to me that the reason you're having to order more clematis is perhaps because you have lost previous plantings. Actually I am buying and planting on behalf of clients - I'm happy to stake my reputation on Rachel's plants and advice. pk |
clematis planting
In message , Paul Kelly
writes "Tony Morgan" wrote in message ... In message , Paul Kelly writes Completely irrelevant. However, the thought does occur to me that the reason you're having to order more clematis is perhaps because you have lost previous plantings. Actually I am buying and planting on behalf of clients - I'm happy to stake my reputation on Rachel's plants and advice. Fine. Just make sure you don't plant just before a wet spell :-) Relying on others for your own reputation can be, IMHO, a recipe of disaster in business. -- Tony Morgan |
clematis planting
In article , Tony Morgan
writes In message , Paul Kelly writes "Tony Morgan" wrote in message ... In message , Paul Kelly writes Completely irrelevant. However, the thought does occur to me that the reason you're having to order more clematis is perhaps because you have lost previous plantings. Actually I am buying and planting on behalf of clients - I'm happy to stake my reputation on Rachel's plants and advice. Fine. Just make sure you don't plant just before a wet spell :-) Relying on others for your own reputation can be, IMHO, a recipe of disaster in business. As can be insisting on manufacturing all your supplies yourself as opposed to obtaining them from good specialist suppliers. -- Kay Easton Edward's earthworm page: http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/garden/ |
clematis planting
In message , Kay Easton
writes In article , Tony Morgan writes In message , Paul Kelly writes "Tony Morgan" wrote in message ... In message , Paul Kelly writes Completely irrelevant. However, the thought does occur to me that the reason you're having to order more clematis is perhaps because you have lost previous plantings. Actually I am buying and planting on behalf of clients - I'm happy to stake my reputation on Rachel's plants and advice. Fine. Just make sure you don't plant just before a wet spell :-) Relying on others for your own reputation can be, IMHO, a recipe of disaster in business. As can be insisting on manufacturing all your supplies yourself as opposed to obtaining them from good specialist suppliers. If you buy-in the best widget in the world, then make a cock-up with the installation, its your reputation (and sometimes more) that suffers, not your supplier :-) -- Tony Morgan |
clematis planting
The message
from Tony Morgan contains these words: In message , Paul Kelly writes Why are you challenging what has long been "best advice" for planting clematis? Clearly you do not bury all the mature stem but the site advice: Plant deeper than the original container - not necessarily 2 or 3 inches deeper, but as much as it takes to get at least one other set of leaf nodes below the ground. We have done this since the plant was a cutting, and it has been potted on at least three times since then. Do it once more! is sound. Then I'm afraid we must agree to disagree. I've been growing clematis for 47 years, I can assure you that if you plant a set of leaf nodes below the surface and you have a wet spell within a week or so, then you can expect to get rot and lose the plant - not necessarily but there's a good possibly.. I've always planted clematis deep for the same reasons Rachel has given, and find they do very well; even though they invariably have a wet spell soon after planting. I live in the extremely wet west of Scotland; rainfall at least 70" pa and rising. Janet. |
clematis planting
If you buy-in the best widget in the world, then make a cock-up with the installation, its your reputation (and sometimes more) that suffers, not your supplier :-) -- Tony Morgan It pays to realise that planting advice given is always of a "one size fits all" type, the fact that you have manage perfectly well for 47 years to acheive success does not alter the fact that the majority of clematis grown from cuttings benefit from deep planting, this whether it is wet or not, and I certainly never think twice about burying new green stems and leaves. Although I can not claim 47 years experiance, I suspect I have grown and planted more clematis than you have, your comments were valid, it is just that I do not think you should have rubbished the perfectly sound advice being given, adding a note of caution would have been enough. -- Charlie, gardening in Cornwall. http://www.roselandhouse.co.uk Holders of National Plant Collection of Clematis viticella (cvs) |
clematis planting
In article , Tony Morgan
writes In message , Rachel Sullivan writes Plant it well & add a pipe going down to the roots (fill it with stones) so you can pour water straight down to where it's needed. No doubt para 4 in the Planting directions help Barkers sell more clematis plants :-) Well, if the plants they(nursery) sold kept keeling over, people would stop buying from them(nursery), wouldn't they(people), and they(nursery) would work up a fearfully bad reputation, wouldn't they(nursery) !!!!!! And that, they(nursery) are *not* doing, by any means - they(nursery) keep on supplying zillions of healthy clematis plants by following their own advice - even if you do happen to disagree with it :)))))) -- Jane Ransom in Lancaster. I won't respond to private emails that are on topic for urg but if you need to email me for any other reason, put jandg dot demon dot co dot uk where you see deadspam.com |
clematis planting
In message , Janet Baraclough
writes I've been growing clematis for 47 years, I can assure you that if you plant a set of leaf nodes below the surface and you have a wet spell within a week or so, then you can expect to get rot and lose the plant - not necessarily but there's a good possibly.. I've always planted clematis deep for the same reasons Rachel has given, and find they do very well; even though they invariably have a wet spell soon after planting. I live in the extremely wet west of Scotland; rainfall at least 70" pa and rising. Experts are divided as to what causes Clematis wilt (which seems to be the underlying motive for deep planting). The reason for the deep planting recommendation is that it is believed by some (many?) to be due to insufficient water in the flowering season - usually accompanied by a fungal infection (opinion is divided as to which precedes which), as well as "insurance" in getting new growth if wilt destroys the plant. Its my view (shared by others) that its better to address the cause than to adopt the "insurance" view of deep planting that can often cause rotting of the stem if a long wet spell follows planting. Clematis wilt (I've never ever experienced it myself) can, in my view, be avoided by well watering in the flowering season. And if wilt appears can invariably be rectified by the application of Benomyl (Benlate). Clematis wilt invariably occurs in (or immediately before) the flowering season, and by that time the root system is sufficiently developed to regenerate the plant by the next season - even if the Benomyl doesn't restore the plant that season. IMHO more clematis are lost in the first season through rotting of buried portions of the newly planted stem following wet periods (especially in heavy or badly drained soil), compared with those that are lost by wilt (which rarely occurs at planting time). This is why I disputed the advice given. -- Tony Morgan |
clematis planting
The message
from Kay Easton contains these words: In article , Tony Morgan writes Relying on others for your own reputation can be, IMHO, a recipe of disaster in business. As can be insisting on manufacturing all your supplies yourself as opposed to obtaining them from good specialist suppliers. Yay Kay, sock it to him :-) Janet. |
clematis planting
In message , Tony Morgan
writes In message , Rachel Sullivan writes Plant it well & add a pipe going down to the roots (fill it with stones) so you can pour water straight down to where it's needed. No doubt para 4 in the Planting directions help Barkers sell more clematis plants :-) In this, regardless of the smiley, you are implying that Rachel is giving bad advice to sell more plants. 1. That is ludicrous in the extreme. 2. You will note that their web site has much information for people who will *never* buy plants from them - Temp. Zone info for those in North America and the rest of the world, outside of the E.U., for example. 3. Your comment above is offensive. Since you have now been offensive, then I'll continue. Unless you plant with a little of the brown section at the bottom of the stem above ground, you can get disease or rot. Also cut the bottom out of a 3" or 4" pot and place upside down to keep the sun away from the roots. Rachel has already answered these comments quite adequately - and I note that you have yet to provide a single authoritative reference for your position. What we actually find is that this is not uncommon in your case. You are quite fond of pontificating about subjects, to appear to others as if you are expert in them, when in actual fact you aren't. Remember back to Jan 2001 when you said in demon.homepages.authoring that NT4 could only read NTFS, amongst other tripe. To refresh your memory it was in article: news: since what you spouted in it was almost totally wrong, I posted: news: in which you were comprehensively destroyed and never posted a follow-up It's there on Google Groups for all to see. Of course, you might consider that Grandad has more experience with clematis than any of us is likely to achieve if we live to be a 100, since he's propagated and grown 10s if not 100s of thousands of the bloody things. You also might consider that T.H. Barkers have got, and they've read from cover to cover, every major and minor work on clematis. You might also consider that Rachel herself is considered an expert by some very qualified people - I can bore you with the detail, but I won't. You, of course, know better. Just like you knew better that NT4 couldn't read a Fat16 file system. Bwahahaha! I'm sure that the rest of us mere mortals sleep better at night knowing that we don't have to live our lives with your attitude. -- Tony - Rachel's partner Who extends his apologies to the rest of the regular denizens of u.r.g And knows bugger all about clematis - but a lot about Rachel, NT4 & Win2K |
clematis planting
In article , Tony Morgan
writes In message , Janet Baraclough writes I've been growing clematis for 47 years, I can assure you that if you plant a set of leaf nodes below the surface and you have a wet spell within a week or so, then you can expect to get rot and lose the plant - not necessarily but there's a good possibly.. I've always planted clematis deep for the same reasons Rachel has given, and find they do very well; even though they invariably have a wet spell soon after planting. I live in the extremely wet west of Scotland; rainfall at least 70" pa and rising. Experts are divided as to what causes Clematis wilt (which seems to be the underlying motive for deep planting). There is certainly some discussion about this, but the accepted view is that wilt, *also known as stem rot* is caused by a "a vulnerability to a number of fungi of which Ascochyta clematidina (Phoma clematidina Thüm.) and Coniothyrium clematidis-rectae have been identified". [1] Most particularly, Phoma clematidina, but other phoma have been found in wilted clematis stems. Small flowered hybrids and species are very resistant to the virus. The reason for the deep planting recommendation is that it is believed by some (many?) to be due to insufficient water in the flowering season - usually accompanied by a fungal infection (opinion is divided as to which precedes which), as well as "insurance" in getting new growth if wilt destroys the plant. A plant under stress is a vulnerable plant. If you starve your plant of water, it will be more susceptible to disease & bugs. Planting deep does, indeed, give you a considerable measure of 'insurance' because of the growth habit of hybrid clematis. If you don't have any leaf nodes under the soil, if anything should happen to the top of the plant (not just wilt), the dormant nodes will shoot. Indeed, if clematis didn't like being planted deep from the cutting stage onwards, you couldn't propagate them in the first place. Furthermore, if you didn't bury the stem with buds, you wouldn't get multi-stemmed plants. It is a very good long-term survival strategy. So, to put it simply, if you have no buried leaf nodes & you lose the top of the clematis (for whatever reason), your plant is to all intents and purposes dead. Hybrid clematis cannot shoot from the roots (although atragenes can). Oddly enough, the roots will continue to grow for years, but there will be no top growth. It is believed that wilt-virus (easier to spell than the Latin) enters the plant through cracked or damaged stems & leaves and we know from our own experience that it always works up the plant, never down. It appears to block the stem and prevents water being taken up through the system. The nodes you bury will be safe - the plant above ground is not. If you catch it quickly enough, it is possible to strike cuttings from a clematis affected by wilt & have perfectly healthy plants. Its my view (shared by others) Whom? that its better to address the cause than to adopt the "insurance" view of deep planting that can often cause rotting of the stem if a long wet spell follows planting. Addressing the cause is the obvious solution which is why deep planting is recommended as well as planting well with plenty of food & water in order to create a healthy plant. As we all know, a healthy plant is a disease resistant plant. And about these 'long wet spells' you speak of? We live in the UK - it's hardly a rare occurrence for most of us. Clematis wilt (I've never ever experienced it myself) can, in my view, be avoided by well watering in the flowering season. If you've never experienced it, how do you know? And if wilt appears can invariably be rectified by the application of Benomyl (Benlate). No it can't. As any fule no, Benlate was banned in the UK & the US some years ago. There is no useful 100% chemical prevention for wilt and, in spite of what you seem to believe, Benlate didn't fix it either. Systemic fungicides may help - but not much. Clematis wilt invariably occurs in (or immediately before) the flowering season, and by that time the root system is sufficiently developed to regenerate the plant by the next season - even if the Benomyl doesn't restore the plant that season. The root system can't regenerate anything if there are no shoots to regenerate from. And wilt, generally speaking, affects only one group of clematis - some of the early large flowered hybrids. And it doesn't affect them all that much. Often, what appears to be wilt, is something entirely different. The plant being battered by wind, slugs or mice eating through the stems, etc. Benomyl or any other fungicide does not *restore* the plant. It has nothing to do with whether the plant will grow again or not. But the buried leaf nodes have *everything* to do with it. IMHO more clematis are lost in the first season through rotting of buried portions of the newly planted stem following wet periods (especially in heavy or badly drained soil), compared with those that are lost by wilt (which rarely occurs at planting time). This is why I disputed the advice given. But you're not supposed to plant them in heavy, badly drained soil. They don't like it. Basically, they drown. Unless it is a marsh or water plant adapted to that environment, if your soil is waterlogged and heavy, with no oxygen, your plant can't breathe. You are disputing advice that is tried and tested not just by me, but the whole clematis industry, for generations past and whilst I agree with Charlie in that advice has to be a 'fits all' basis, people often break the 'rules' successfully. Nevertheless, these are exceptions, not norms. I know of clematis armandii growing on a North wall in the Pennines - but it's not a position I would recommend for general planting as I know of many more that have failed in similar circumstances. The authority for my information on planting depth comes from: Graham Stuart Thomas, Christopher Lloyd, Barry Fretwell, Christopher Grey- Wilson, Raymond Evison, Mary Toomey, Malcolm Oviatt-Ham, Ruth Gooch, Sheila Chapman, Dr.John Howells, Everett Leeds, Geoff Hamilton (bless) - they *all* recommend deep planting, most particularly for hybrids. Every clematis nursery in Britain says the same. So does the British Clematis Society & the International Clematis Society. I have not read, anywhere, that planting clematis with no extra depth is a recommended practise, so please list your sources of information (other than yourself, of course). I mentioned your interesting theory to Grandad, who has grown more varieties of clematis for a lot longer than you. It made him laugh - but he was not amused to hear of your implication that our advice (and therefore the advice of every clematis nursery) is deliberately misleading in order to sell more plants. The only printable thing he said was 'even a fool can be thought a wise man ... if he keeps his mouth shut'. [1] Dr. John Howells' Work on Stem Rot (Clematis Wilt) -- Rachel Clematis Web Site http://www.ukclematis.co.uk/ |
clematis planting
"Tony Wright" wrote in message ... Tony - Rachel's partner Who extends his apologies to the rest of the regular denizens of u.r.g And knows bugger all about clematis - but a lot about Rachel, NT4 & Win2K No apology needed! Well said! pk |
clematis planting
I'm sure that the rest of us mere mortals sleep better at night knowing that we don't have to live our lives with your attitude. -- Tony - Rachel's partner Who extends his apologies to the rest of the regular denizens of u.r.g And knows bugger all about clematis - but a lot about Rachel, NT4 & Win2K Thanks for all that Tony, I thought we were dealing with someone miss-guided not a time served twit! -- Charlie, gardening in Cornwall. http://www.roselandhouse.co.uk Holders of National Plant Collection of Clematis viticella (cvs) |
clematis planting
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