In article , Pam wrote:

Valkyrie wrote:

Just found Ciscoe on NWCN ( Northwest Cable News). What a hoot, ooooooooh la
la! I'd enjoy that little fella even if I wasn't a gardener!
I think we should send him fan mail and ask him to drop by this NG from time
to time.

A Ciscoe fan,
Val

Heavens preserve us!! Add to the fact that he is only a local feature, he is a
TV celebrity and merely a hobby gardener rather than a skilled horticulturist.

That Ciscoe considers the nursery you work for worthy of calling up for
advise speaks well of your nursery, BECAUSE after all, he's Ciscoe. That
you would turn it into evidence that he's a know-nothing hobbyist reflects
badly on that nursery as perhaps a place unworthy of Ciscoe's respect!

His off-the-cuff answers are frequently wrong, but he's always pretty
honest about what he doesn't know. What he does know seems to be to be
considerable.

AND he most certainly is NOT merelya another worthlessly grubby "hobby
gardener" like the majority of us, nor even a mere nursery worker for that
matter selling gallon pots of stuff other people grew. Ciscoe was chief
gardener at Seattle U for over two decades. He has lectured on
horticultural topics at the University of Washington many times, has been
a guiding light for the Center for Urban Gardening, & apart from his
charming presentations at just about every local garden club imaginable,
he has also lectured in most of the state's colleges. He has taught at
Washington State University, hardly a second-rate place when it comes to
horticultural stuff. He is a certified arborist & most assuredly a
first-rate landscaper as Seattle U's grounds more than adequately convey
(his hand is also in a half-dozen other urban/campus gardens & the
Arboretum itself).

It could certainly be argued that nobody needs to know shit about squat to
be a Master Gardener around here; most of the Master Gardener grads I
encounter (& I encounter many) don't seem to know a bloody thing, & on the
rare occasion when one is well-grounded in horticultural topics, they
acquired that knowledge apart from the Master Gardener program . And one
could also argue that it doesn't take much to be a Certified Arborist
though those who have managed to get Certified will certainly disagree.
Then again, nine out of ten nursery workers would otherwise be frycooks at
Denny's, the knowledgeable ones are rarities indeed.

I believe that the gardens at Seattle U speak for themselves for Ciscoe's
brilliance as a PROFESSIONAL landscape gardener rather than a hobbyist as
you allege. It doesn't make him factual when asked random questions from
an audience, but his beginning-point is WAY ahead of nursery workers or
hobby gardeners. Thirty years of professional gardening teaches ANYone a
great deal more than is learned by selling lots of gallon pots of flowers
to an over-eager public as in your case, or obsessively gardening in one's
own small gardens as in my case. I spot Ciscoe making errors same as you,
but I don't presume to minimalize what a lifetime as a professional
gardener, certified arborist, & university horticultural lecturer adds up
to.

Television never has been, never will be, a great source of education. It
is a great source of entertainment, & if a LITTLE information comes with
it, that keeps the majority of people, who don't read anything or
participate in anything vital, from becoming TOTAL morons as opposed to
mostly morons. Ciscoe happens to be quite an entertainer in the
non-educational environment of television, squeeking in a very few words
between advertisements. But in teaching environments he also does
exceedingly well.

All that said in his defense, there are nevertheless moments when I think
he has failed to put enough thought into his position & his opportunity to
educate. Many of his presentations are trivial beyond belief, & much of
the television stuff amounts to "dig a hole, plop it in, oo la la," with
no information provided in the least. In the background of his
presentations at his own house one often sees all sorts of crap laying out
on his parking tarmack, & his sense that nothing has to be tidied up even
a little since it's going to be on television seems to be related to a
sense that a three-minute bit needn't be worked out to any careful degree
because hell, it's just TV.

Seattle Tilthe also does a KOUW program & manages to convey a great deal
about the importance of organic gardening & our responsibilities to the
broader environment. I know Ciscoe cares about the same things but he's
having so much fun clowning & entertaining that he often forgets there are
central issues worth reminding the public about at every opportunity. And
some of his newspaper articles have been as trivial as a Larry King film
review, & could have been written by someone called Miss Daisy who hastily
writes gardening-filler for supermarket newspaper advertisers. Still, his
failure to take his position in the MEDIA as one of RESPONSIBILITY rather
than just entertainment is a personal choice I'm in no position to change
for him. The fact that he caused Seattle University (& in emulation due to
his activism, the majority of our urban campus gardens) to go cold-turkey
without pesticides suggests to me he categorizes his responsibilities
distinctly. His responsibility on the radio or TV is to be a fun guy to
listen to. But in practical contexts, his has been an agenda not all that
dissimilar to "radicals" at Seattle Tilth.

there are dozens of far more skilled contributors to this group already.

Since newsgroups are more a "virtual community" than a guaranteed source
of wild expertise, I think this unwelcoming commentary sort of misses the
point of usenet, which is not one's level of genius, but the nature of an
uncensorable community, including rather too many who are dysfunctional.
If Ciscoe wanted to be part of "our" community, I think it would be very
wonderful, I would be excited to see him show up. But i HAVE seen
television personalities show up in newsgroups relating to their areas of
expertise, & it was invariably a mistake that the tried to play. Nice
people of higher merit get their asses flamed so fast it it just
unbelievable!

One has to face the fact that UseNet is not the cutting edge of ANYthing
but goofing off, nor the ideal location for ANY serious expertise. If you
or I or anyone else do have a few tiny areas of expertise, or at least own
a few reference books to get the answer in a trice, that's a very nice
aside; over time some of us would rather be helpful than annoying, though
in an often volatile context to fail ever to be annoying is to fail to
play the whole of the game. You're sometimes annoying, I'm sometimes
annoying, & even complete creeps like animaux can be "leaders" here (well,
I exaggerate to suggest leadership, but she's an important presence, &
though I haven't referredto her until this moment for at least six months,
probably longer, there's never a week goes by she doesn't take a
meaningless, churlish potshot at me, ignoring her only heightens her
animosities, making it hard to ever quite forget she's a junkyard dog
first & foremost, & a gardener only secondarily). Such an unstable
personality would be ejected in no time from any truly constructive
environment where one might hang out with the Ciscoes of this planet
instead of with you & me & all our fellow Usenutters.

Fact is, if & when anyone wildly entertaining shows up, who to even a
slight degree is a potential target of jealousy, they'll end up either
willing to share in the malice & therefore fight back, or they'd just have
to stick to things constructive somewhere else entirely. This is a fun
place to be only if one doesn't mind risking malice, or even enjoys the
risk. Your "he's not even welcome" attitude sadly isn't the most agregious
thing a 100% constructive personality could expect to suffer! It takes at
least 10% of animaux's 99% junkyard dog personality to even want to play.
Which is to say, there is something twisted about you & me seriously
liking it in here, & I doubt Ciscoe has enough kinks for it.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/