Just found Ciscoe on NWCN ( Northwest Cable News). What a hoot, ooooooooh la
la! I'd enjoy that little fella even if I wasn't a gardener!
I think we should send him fan mail and ask him to drop by this NG from time
to time.

A Ciscoe fan,
Val

Valkyrie wrote:

Just found Ciscoe on NWCN ( Northwest Cable News). What a hoot, ooooooooh la
la! I'd enjoy that little fella even if I wasn't a gardener!
I think we should send him fan mail and ask him to drop by this NG from time
to time.

A Ciscoe fan,
Val

Heavens preserve us!! Add to the fact that he is only a local feature, he is a
TV celebrity and merely a hobby gardener rather than a skilled horticulturist.
The holes in his knowledge are huge (he even calls at the nursery to get answers
for some of his viewer questions) and since he has trouble remembering plant
names, he makes them up. I can't count the number of times customers have come
in looking for some odd Ciscoe plant under some fictitious name and when we tell
them the correct name, they don't believe us, cuz "that's not what Ciscoe called
it". They take his word as gospel, even when incorrect. He IS entertaining, but
there are dozens of far more skilled contributors to this group already.

pam - gardengal

In article , Pam wrote:

Valkyrie wrote:

Just found Ciscoe on NWCN ( Northwest Cable News). What a hoot, ooooooooh la
la! I'd enjoy that little fella even if I wasn't a gardener!
I think we should send him fan mail and ask him to drop by this NG from time
to time.

A Ciscoe fan,
Val

Heavens preserve us!! Add to the fact that he is only a local feature, he is a
TV celebrity and merely a hobby gardener rather than a skilled horticulturist.

That Ciscoe considers the nursery you work for worthy of calling up for
advise speaks well of your nursery, BECAUSE after all, he's Ciscoe. That
you would turn it into evidence that he's a know-nothing hobbyist reflects
badly on that nursery as perhaps a place unworthy of Ciscoe's respect!

His off-the-cuff answers are frequently wrong, but he's always pretty
honest about what he doesn't know. What he does know seems to be to be
considerable.

AND he most certainly is NOT merelya another worthlessly grubby "hobby
gardener" like the majority of us, nor even a mere nursery worker for that
matter selling gallon pots of stuff other people grew. Ciscoe was chief
gardener at Seattle U for over two decades. He has lectured on
horticultural topics at the University of Washington many times, has been
a guiding light for the Center for Urban Gardening, & apart from his
charming presentations at just about every local garden club imaginable,
he has also lectured in most of the state's colleges. He has taught at
Washington State University, hardly a second-rate place when it comes to
horticultural stuff. He is a certified arborist & most assuredly a
first-rate landscaper as Seattle U's grounds more than adequately convey
(his hand is also in a half-dozen other urban/campus gardens & the
Arboretum itself).

It could certainly be argued that nobody needs to know shit about squat to
be a Master Gardener around here; most of the Master Gardener grads I
encounter (& I encounter many) don't seem to know a bloody thing, & on the
rare occasion when one is well-grounded in horticultural topics, they
acquired that knowledge apart from the Master Gardener program . And one
could also argue that it doesn't take much to be a Certified Arborist
though those who have managed to get Certified will certainly disagree.
Then again, nine out of ten nursery workers would otherwise be frycooks at
Denny's, the knowledgeable ones are rarities indeed.

I believe that the gardens at Seattle U speak for themselves for Ciscoe's
brilliance as a PROFESSIONAL landscape gardener rather than a hobbyist as
you allege. It doesn't make him factual when asked random questions from
an audience, but his beginning-point is WAY ahead of nursery workers or
hobby gardeners. Thirty years of professional gardening teaches ANYone a
great deal more than is learned by selling lots of gallon pots of flowers
to an over-eager public as in your case, or obsessively gardening in one's
own small gardens as in my case. I spot Ciscoe making errors same as you,
but I don't presume to minimalize what a lifetime as a professional
gardener, certified arborist, & university horticultural lecturer adds up
to.

Television never has been, never will be, a great source of education. It
is a great source of entertainment, & if a LITTLE information comes with
it, that keeps the majority of people, who don't read anything or
participate in anything vital, from becoming TOTAL morons as opposed to
mostly morons. Ciscoe happens to be quite an entertainer in the
non-educational environment of television, squeeking in a very few words
between advertisements. But in teaching environments he also does
exceedingly well.

All that said in his defense, there are nevertheless moments when I think
he has failed to put enough thought into his position & his opportunity to
educate. Many of his presentations are trivial beyond belief, & much of
the television stuff amounts to "dig a hole, plop it in, oo la la," with
no information provided in the least. In the background of his
presentations at his own house one often sees all sorts of crap laying out
on his parking tarmack, & his sense that nothing has to be tidied up even
a little since it's going to be on television seems to be related to a
sense that a three-minute bit needn't be worked out to any careful degree
because hell, it's just TV.

Seattle Tilthe also does a KOUW program & manages to convey a great deal
about the importance of organic gardening & our responsibilities to the
broader environment. I know Ciscoe cares about the same things but he's
having so much fun clowning & entertaining that he often forgets there are
central issues worth reminding the public about at every opportunity. And
some of his newspaper articles have been as trivial as a Larry King film
review, & could have been written by someone called Miss Daisy who hastily
writes gardening-filler for supermarket newspaper advertisers. Still, his
failure to take his position in the MEDIA as one of RESPONSIBILITY rather
than just entertainment is a personal choice I'm in no position to change
for him. The fact that he caused Seattle University (& in emulation due to
his activism, the majority of our urban campus gardens) to go cold-turkey
without pesticides suggests to me he categorizes his responsibilities
distinctly. His responsibility on the radio or TV is to be a fun guy to
listen to. But in practical contexts, his has been an agenda not all that
dissimilar to "radicals" at Seattle Tilth.

there are dozens of far more skilled contributors to this group already.

Since newsgroups are more a "virtual community" than a guaranteed source
of wild expertise, I think this unwelcoming commentary sort of misses the
point of usenet, which is not one's level of genius, but the nature of an
uncensorable community, including rather too many who are dysfunctional.
If Ciscoe wanted to be part of "our" community, I think it would be very
wonderful, I would be excited to see him show up. But i HAVE seen
television personalities show up in newsgroups relating to their areas of
expertise, & it was invariably a mistake that the tried to play. Nice
people of higher merit get their asses flamed so fast it it just
unbelievable!

One has to face the fact that UseNet is not the cutting edge of ANYthing
but goofing off, nor the ideal location for ANY serious expertise. If you
or I or anyone else do have a few tiny areas of expertise, or at least own
a few reference books to get the answer in a trice, that's a very nice
aside; over time some of us would rather be helpful than annoying, though
in an often volatile context to fail ever to be annoying is to fail to
play the whole of the game. You're sometimes annoying, I'm sometimes
annoying, & even complete creeps like animaux can be "leaders" here (well,
I exaggerate to suggest leadership, but she's an important presence, &
though I haven't referredto her until this moment for at least six months,
probably longer, there's never a week goes by she doesn't take a
meaningless, churlish potshot at me, ignoring her only heightens her
animosities, making it hard to ever quite forget she's a junkyard dog
first & foremost, & a gardener only secondarily). Such an unstable
personality would be ejected in no time from any truly constructive
environment where one might hang out with the Ciscoes of this planet
instead of with you & me & all our fellow Usenutters.

Fact is, if & when anyone wildly entertaining shows up, who to even a
slight degree is a potential target of jealousy, they'll end up either
willing to share in the malice & therefore fight back, or they'd just have
to stick to things constructive somewhere else entirely. This is a fun
place to be only if one doesn't mind risking malice, or even enjoys the
risk. Your "he's not even welcome" attitude sadly isn't the most agregious
thing a 100% constructive personality could expect to suffer! It takes at
least 10% of animaux's 99% junkyard dog personality to even want to play.
Which is to say, there is something twisted about you & me seriously
liking it in here, & I doubt Ciscoe has enough kinks for it.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

Okay, a public apology to all you Ciscoe fans out there. I certainly did not mean to
demean his appeal and ability - my response - which I admit was a bit knee-jerk -
was more a reaction to the Ciscoe fall-out I deal with on a daily basis. He is a
personal friend and does indeed have a wealth of experiential gardening information
which he is more than eager to share, but his great public personality and speaking
style has developed a Ciscoe cult which even he finds embarrassing. His followers
hang on every word as the gospel despite even his protestations to the contrary that
he often misses the mark.

I find his public persona somewhat tiring and thankfully, that is a good distance
away from the real Ciscoe - he is a warm, genuine individual that finds his eager
fan club pretty much overwhelming. Heck, he even has groupies that attend every
public presentation, bringing him gifts and goodies. A good deal of his ability to
share information with the Northwest gardening public has been compromised by this
celebrity status and the venues in which it is conveyed. Like Timothy, I also
consider Carl Elliott better able to more accurately and succinctly impart
horticultural information, however he does not have the same personality and
presentation style and unfortunately will probably never have the devoted following
that Ciscoe has gathered.

Not sure why you persistently equate hobby gardening with a know-nothing grubby
laborer. It should be abundantly clear from contributors to this newsgroup, yourself
included, that hobby gardeners have a wealth of information to share on a huge range
of gardening issues. Simply because one has no formal training doesn't make their
knowledge base or skill level any less valid. My point, which obviously was rather
poorly presented, was just an attempt to counteract the deification of Ciscoe - he
is not an infallible gardening god and he is the first to admit it. His formal
training is rudimentary at best, but his enthusiasm and passion for gardening and
his adoption of organic gardening principles has done a great deal of good for the
PNW gardening community and his contribution to gardening in this area is
considerable. It is not that he wouldn't be welcome to this group, although I'm sure
his contributions would meet with the same disparaging remarks from others that
anyone with valid information to share meets with here on a regular basis, but that
the information he would be able to share is already available here in some form or
another. He has neither the time nor the interest to participate in this type of
forum.

And since you have no personal knowledge of my background and education, training,
professional status or even responsibilities at the nursery, perhaps you could
refrain from commenting on them as though you do.

pam - gardengal




paghat wrote:

In article , Pam wrote:

Valkyrie wrote:

Just found Ciscoe on NWCN ( Northwest Cable News). What a hoot, ooooooooh la
la! I'd enjoy that little fella even if I wasn't a gardener!
I think we should send him fan mail and ask him to drop by this NG from time
to time.

A Ciscoe fan,
Val

Heavens preserve us!! Add to the fact that he is only a local feature, he is a
TV celebrity and merely a hobby gardener rather than a skilled horticulturist.

That Ciscoe considers the nursery you work for worthy of calling up for
advise speaks well of your nursery, BECAUSE after all, he's Ciscoe. That
you would turn it into evidence that he's a know-nothing hobbyist reflects
badly on that nursery as perhaps a place unworthy of Ciscoe's respect!

His off-the-cuff answers are frequently wrong, but he's always pretty
honest about what he doesn't know. What he does know seems to be to be
considerable.

AND he most certainly is NOT merelya another worthlessly grubby "hobby
gardener" like the majority of us, nor even a mere nursery worker for that
matter selling gallon pots of stuff other people grew. Ciscoe was chief
gardener at Seattle U for over two decades. He has lectured on
horticultural topics at the University of Washington many times, has been
a guiding light for the Center for Urban Gardening, & apart from his
charming presentations at just about every local garden club imaginable,
he has also lectured in most of the state's colleges. He has taught at
Washington State University, hardly a second-rate place when it comes to
horticultural stuff. He is a certified arborist & most assuredly a
first-rate landscaper as Seattle U's grounds more than adequately convey
(his hand is also in a half-dozen other urban/campus gardens & the
Arboretum itself).

It could certainly be argued that nobody needs to know shit about squat to
be a Master Gardener around here; most of the Master Gardener grads I
encounter (& I encounter many) don't seem to know a bloody thing, & on the
rare occasion when one is well-grounded in horticultural topics, they
acquired that knowledge apart from the Master Gardener program . And one
could also argue that it doesn't take much to be a Certified Arborist
though those who have managed to get Certified will certainly disagree.
Then again, nine out of ten nursery workers would otherwise be frycooks at
Denny's, the knowledgeable ones are rarities indeed.

I believe that the gardens at Seattle U speak for themselves for Ciscoe's
brilliance as a PROFESSIONAL landscape gardener rather than a hobbyist as
you allege. It doesn't make him factual when asked random questions from
an audience, but his beginning-point is WAY ahead of nursery workers or
hobby gardeners. Thirty years of professional gardening teaches ANYone a
great deal more than is learned by selling lots of gallon pots of flowers
to an over-eager public as in your case, or obsessively gardening in one's
own small gardens as in my case. I spot Ciscoe making errors same as you,
but I don't presume to minimalize what a lifetime as a professional
gardener, certified arborist, & university horticultural lecturer adds up
to.

Television never has been, never will be, a great source of education. It
is a great source of entertainment, & if a LITTLE information comes with
it, that keeps the majority of people, who don't read anything or
participate in anything vital, from becoming TOTAL morons as opposed to
mostly morons. Ciscoe happens to be quite an entertainer in the
non-educational environment of television, squeeking in a very few words
between advertisements. But in teaching environments he also does
exceedingly well.

All that said in his defense, there are nevertheless moments when I think
he has failed to put enough thought into his position & his opportunity to
educate. Many of his presentations are trivial beyond belief, & much of
the television stuff amounts to "dig a hole, plop it in, oo la la," with
no information provided in the least. In the background of his
presentations at his own house one often sees all sorts of crap laying out
on his parking tarmack, & his sense that nothing has to be tidied up even
a little since it's going to be on television seems to be related to a
sense that a three-minute bit needn't be worked out to any careful degree
because hell, it's just TV.

Seattle Tilthe also does a KOUW program & manages to convey a great deal
about the importance of organic gardening & our responsibilities to the
broader environment. I know Ciscoe cares about the same things but he's
having so much fun clowning & entertaining that he often forgets there are
central issues worth reminding the public about at every opportunity. And
some of his newspaper articles have been as trivial as a Larry King film
review, & could have been written by someone called Miss Daisy who hastily
writes gardening-filler for supermarket newspaper advertisers. Still, his
failure to take his position in the MEDIA as one of RESPONSIBILITY rather
than just entertainment is a personal choice I'm in no position to change
for him. The fact that he caused Seattle University (& in emulation due to
his activism, the majority of our urban campus gardens) to go cold-turkey
without pesticides suggests to me he categorizes his responsibilities
distinctly. His responsibility on the radio or TV is to be a fun guy to
listen to. But in practical contexts, his has been an agenda not all that
dissimilar to "radicals" at Seattle Tilth.

there are dozens of far more skilled contributors to this group already.

Since newsgroups are more a "virtual community" than a guaranteed source
of wild expertise, I think this unwelcoming commentary sort of misses the
point of usenet, which is not one's level of genius, but the nature of an
uncensorable community, including rather too many who are dysfunctional.
If Ciscoe wanted to be part of "our" community, I think it would be very
wonderful, I would be excited to see him show up. But i HAVE seen
television personalities show up in newsgroups relating to their areas of
expertise, & it was invariably a mistake that the tried to play. Nice
people of higher merit get their asses flamed so fast it it just
unbelievable!

One has to face the fact that UseNet is not the cutting edge of ANYthing
but goofing off, nor the ideal location for ANY serious expertise. If you
or I or anyone else do have a few tiny areas of expertise, or at least own
a few reference books to get the answer in a trice, that's a very nice
aside; over time some of us would rather be helpful than annoying, though
in an often volatile context to fail ever to be annoying is to fail to
play the whole of the game. You're sometimes annoying, I'm sometimes
annoying, & even complete creeps like animaux can be "leaders" here (well,
I exaggerate to suggest leadership, but she's an important presence, &
though I haven't referredto her until this moment for at least six months,
probably longer, there's never a week goes by she doesn't take a
meaningless, churlish potshot at me, ignoring her only heightens her
animosities, making it hard to ever quite forget she's a junkyard dog
first & foremost, & a gardener only secondarily). Such an unstable
personality would be ejected in no time from any truly constructive
environment where one might hang out with the Ciscoes of this planet
instead of with you & me & all our fellow Usenutters.

Fact is, if & when anyone wildly entertaining shows up, who to even a
slight degree is a potential target of jealousy, they'll end up either
willing to share in the malice & therefore fight back, or they'd just have
to stick to things constructive somewhere else entirely. This is a fun
place to be only if one doesn't mind risking malice, or even enjoys the
risk. Your "he's not even welcome" attitude sadly isn't the most agregious
thing a 100% constructive personality could expect to suffer! It takes at
least 10% of animaux's 99% junkyard dog personality to even want to play.
Which is to say, there is something twisted about you & me seriously
liking it in here, & I doubt Ciscoe has enough kinks for it.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

paghat wrote:

In article , Pam wrote:


Not sure why you persistently equate hobby gardening with a know-nothing
grubby
laborer.

I don't; YOUR attitude toward Ciscoe (which you've ammended, & that's
appreciated) was underscored with his being merely a hobby gardener, &
when Val said someone should invite him to this ng, your reply was
"Heavens preserve us!!" -- that's pretty unambiguous, you didn't want
someone you perceived as a hobby gardener hanging around here, though
mainly we're the only ones who do. Your attitude. Not mine. So don't
project.

Your words: "another worthlessly grubby "hobby gardener" , "merely a
dumb-old-hobby-gardener ". The negative descriptors are yours, not mine. I only
made a statement that he was more a hobby gardener than the extensively trained and
all-knowing horticulturist many of his followers believe him to be. There was no
inference that a hobby gardener was farther down on the evolutionary scale except
yours. His training and experience is no more or no less than what many of us have.
He is not infallible, which something we both apparently agree on.

The "Heavens preserve us" remark was intended to express my dismay that yet another
rabid Ciscoe fan (with whom I deal on a daily basis) was touting his wonders to the
newsgroup at large. There is no dispute that he is an entertaining speaker, but if
you dealt with the fall-out of his less than accurate information (which tends to be
perceived as gardening LAW by his followers) day in and day out, you could perhaps
understand why I was not eager to see more of it permeated through the newsgroup,
which already has enough misinformation disseminated on it to last a lifetime. That
you should derive something else from the remark is entirely your projection and a
somewhat defensive one, at that.


And since you have no personal knowledge of my background and education,
training,
professional status or even responsibilities at the nursery, perhaps you could
refrain from commenting on them as though you do.

Please show me where I commented on your education, expertise or lack
thereof. My comments on nursery workers are based on the majority
encountered & none were even indirectly aimed at you.

And again I quote: "Thirty years of professional gardening teaches ANYone a
great deal more than is learned by selling lots of gallon pots of flowers
to an over-eager public as in your case." And I seem to recall a number of other
posts in which my position was described by you as a "pansy waterer" and another in
which my horticultural training was called in question because it didn't fit YOUR
definition of a horticulturist. I could call up the archives and provide you with
the quotes as you so often like to do, but it is really not worth my time. Let's
just leave it at you have no idea of my background, length or breadth of experience
or professional position and any comments you might make will reflect that.

I know a half-dozen EXTREMELY knowledgeable nursery owners & a
couple equally knowledgeable employees, but they're the distinct minority.
The knowledgeable horticulturalists tend to have university affiliations,
or are hybridizers & growers rather than retailers -- a knowledgeable
horticulturalist in a retail nursery is rather like spotting a high-end
chef flipping Herfy burgers. None of which assesses you personally in
anyway, & you're overreaching to imagine yourself insulted but a merely
factual if overgeneralized observation.

This is a pretty symptomatic statement about what you don't know about horticulture
and the nursery business. If you were to pass it off as your opinion, that's fine,
but you make the statement as though it were fact. I can list a dozen nurseries in
the area off the top of my head with degreed horticulturists on staff and in this
area, extremely knowledgeable nursery staff is the rule rather than the exception,
unless you frequent box stores and discounters rather than retail nurseries. Why you
think qualified horticulturists are restricted to universities is beyond my
understanding. Horticulture is simply the science of plant husbandry and can be
applied to any aspect of the green industry. I know any number of degreed
horticulturists that wholesale fertilizers and soil amendments, even garden tools
and haven't been anywhere close to a university since they graduated and the closest
they get to a plant is when they walk by one. Like any profession, the more you
know, the more likely you are to be hired for a position. My seasonal hiring
resources included resumes from several individuals with Masters of Landscape
Architecture degrees, college educated horticulturists, even a propagator of native
plants with a PhD in botany. Anyway you look at it, horticulture is a relatively
underpaid profession and the current job market is tough and qualified and highly
trained but unemployed horticulturists, botanists and landscape designers abound.
Factual, no - over generalized, indeed.

pam - gardengal

"Pam" wrote in message
...
rabid Ciscoe fan (with whom I deal on a daily basis) was touting his
wonders to the
newsgroup at large.

Good lord Pammy, you better get your meds adjusted. After that you should
read my post again. Out of that short post where did you come up with
"RABID" fan?? Where in that post was I "TOUTING his wonders" as a gardener.
The man is entertaining and fun to watch, I happen to enjoy the hell out of
his programs on TV and was happy I found a regular program of his. I realize
that YOU are the infallible PROFESSIONAL authority on all things flora. If
you are really that upset about serving the Ciscoe fans, (bet you just grin
and swallow while you're putting that Ciscoe fan's money in the cash
register whether they ask a stupid a question or not) you need to put a big
lighted reader board outside that nursery you work in and display clearly to
your approaching customers.....

WE DO NOT SERVE RABID CISCOE FANS!!

That would solve SOME of your obvious frustrations and we would most likely
all be better off.



Val

paghat wrote:
a knowledgeable horticulturalist in a retail nursery is rather like spotting a high-end
chef flipping Herfy burgers.

Yum, Herfy burger.

--
Julie
reply to me @attbi.com

In article , Pam wrote:

paghat wrote:

In article , Pam wrote:


Not sure why you persistently equate hobby gardening with a know-nothing
grubby
laborer.

I don't; YOUR attitude toward Ciscoe (which you've ammended, & that's
appreciated) was underscored with his being merely a hobby gardener, &
when Val said someone should invite him to this ng, your reply was
"Heavens preserve us!!" -- that's pretty unambiguous, you didn't want
someone you perceived as a hobby gardener hanging around here, though
mainly we're the only ones who do. Your attitude. Not mine. So don't
project.

Your words: "another worthlessly grubby "hobby gardener" , "merely a
dumb-old-hobby-gardener ". The negative descriptors are yours, not mine.

Okay, you've convinced me at least you lack even a rudimentary sense of
irony when you see your statements reflected back at you rephrased for
effect, & I'm sure many of our disagreements have in fact grown out of
that limited capacity.

But you failed to convince me of anything else except your
over-sensitivity that doth protest too much when insisting on the greatest
of all gardening expertise being found in retail centers. Just doesn't
wash; it takes no gardening skill to sell what other people grew. Your
admittedly "kneejerk" assessment of Ciscoe as so devoid of knowledge & he
had to call a RETAIL center for assistance suggests even you suspect
retail centers are a stupid source of info.

I know a half-dozen EXTREMELY knowledgeable nursery owners & a
couple equally knowledgeable employees, but they're the distinct minority.
The knowledgeable horticulturalists tend to have university affiliations,
or are hybridizers & growers rather than retailers -- a knowledgeable
horticulturalist in a retail nursery is rather like spotting a high-end
chef flipping Herfy burgers. None of which assesses you personally in
anyway, & you're overreaching to imagine yourself insulted but a merely
factual if overgeneralized observation.

This is a pretty symptomatic statement about what you don't know about
horticulture
and the nursery business. If you were to pass it off as your opinion,

As an accurate observation frankly. I visit nurseries far & wide as
side-jaunts to bookscouting throughout the Northwest. I report what
exists.

that's fine,
but you make the statement as though it were fact. I can list a dozen
nurseries in
the area off the top of my head with degreed horticulturists on staff
and in this
area,

So what? You're replying to a paragraph in which I said exactly the same
thing. The occasional owner or hireling with at least a minor degree
doesn't change who the vast majority of nursery workers actually are. I
don't despise them for it being a fact; but it's a fact.

extremely knowledgeable nursery staff is the rule rather than the exception,
unless you frequent box stores and discounters rather than retail
nurseries. Why you
think qualified horticulturists are restricted to universities is beyond my
understanding. Horticulture is simply the science of plant husbandry and
can be
applied to any aspect of the green industry.

But only in RETAILING what others grow can one participate without any
knowledge whatsoever about plants.

I know any number of degreed
horticulturists that wholesale fertilizers and soil amendments, even
garden tools
and haven't been anywhere close to a university since they graduated and
the closest
they get to a plant is when they walk by one. Like any profession, the
more you
know, the more likely you are to be hired for a position. My seasonal hiring
resources included resumes from several individuals with Masters of Landscape
Architecture degrees, college educated horticulturists, even a
propagator of native
plants with a PhD in botany. Anyway you look at it, horticulture is a
relatively
underpaid profession and the current job market is tough and qualified
and highly
trained but unemployed horticulturists, botanists and landscape
designers abound.
Factual, no - over generalized, indeed.

pam - gardengal

I'm going to pretend I believe you that YOUR boss only lets you hire
Doctors of Botany whose highest goal in life has been to be garden store
retailers & achieved their life's ambition because you are in charge of
the hiring. It would make your nursery a novel place indeed, & it wouldn't
change the greater reality that I expressed accurately.

I won't even resort to the "discount" places you allude to as the places
that do fit my overview. In fact Lowe's DOES require at least a high
school education, & for managers some college as well, so one has to look
in the sorts of nurseries you laud to find the real comedy winners. Below
I shall list namelessly some actual nursery workers who are far more
representative of the trade than your vastly more absurd assertion that
Doctors of Botany are the primary retail workers in garden centers. It
would be fun to exaggerate these characters, but interestingly, it is not
necessary to exaggerate; the following are real people with long-term
retail experience:

#1: A pothead, ex bankteller, charming as all get-out, can answer any
question relating to gardening in a trice -- but never correctly. He
thought the Brazillian verbanum growing wild all over the edges of his
nursery was saint johns wort, & he labeled a tray of cotoneasters "vinca
minor." The nursery was founded in the 1950s & he's run it for about
one-fifth of its life (I don't believe it will survive him). He's
apparently too happily stoned for new knowledge to sink in, but in his
bumbling way he tries, & I'm not making fun of him.

#2. A woman periodically institutionalized, with an obsessive-compulsive
horror of weeds sticking out of cracks in sidewalks, so that she has to
spend her lunchbreaks & off-hours clearing grass out of sidewalk cracks
near the nursery & near her house. By NO means the craziest nursery worker
around, but definitively certifiable, & yes, reasonably knowledgeable. If
you don't get her on to the topic of weeds in sidewalk cracks, she seems
only moderately eccentric, & at worst you'd wonder why she suddenly
started volunteering stuff about her sex life. But when cracks in
sidewalks spring back to mind, you know she's nuts. Likely would not be
employable anywhere else but in a nursery, not anywhere else pleasant at
least. So it really is a good thing there's a job that even crazy people
can do without needing any actual schooling for it.

#3. A religious fanatic too poor to get a bridge for his missing front
teeth, arrested for trying to kill his estranged wife, but turned up in a
town paper interviewed for his "expertise" in landscaping, though no one
he ever landscaped for was satisfied & the only thing that kept him from
getting sued is that he lived off & on in his truck so what's the point of
suing someone with nothing but a bunged up truck. After seven years
working for one nursery they finally fired him not because of his limited
skill but because he began to menace the young woman who became manager,
as he angrily believed his seniority should have placed him in the job. He
shares one feature in common with you: A fanatical belief that vast
gardening knowledge exists in retail establishments -- primarily evidenced
by himself. I'm sure some other nursery somewhere will hire him, it's not
like he'd be weirder than the rest.

#4. A young man managing a satellite nursery for a big company, doing a
good job, not particularly knowledgeable, has his own side-business
wholesaling native plants taken from the wild wherever he dares. Got into
it that end of the business when still a pre-teen helping a poacher one
summer, liked the work, tried to approach it legally. Has all the requisit
liscense to collect from the wild, but easily lets slip it's really a
lisense to steal, since if you can get out the national forest with the
profitable freebies, you can claim you got that stuff somewhere legal.

#5. A teenager whom a knowledgeable nursery owner hired primarily for the
lad's beauty, & though not very knowledgeable yet, the boy may actually
gain a great deal of knowledge by this liason in time, if his cornhole
doesn't wear out first.

#6. A severe alcoholic with a good deal of nursery experience in a
half-dozen cities (just don't ask why he keeps having to get out of yet
another town). Scored a temporary job managing a nursery while the owner
was sick, & used his complete liberty during the crisis to have a blow-out
sale, pocketing the money, then closed the place & went on a bender,
afterward resorting to tears & begging with big promises of making it
good, to convince a goodhearted sucker not to pursue criminal charges. (He
also robbed the goodhearted sucker's house but swears a drinking buddy did
it though there's no proof either way. Yet I swear, anyone who visited the
nursery while he was running it, even realizing he seemed to be drunk,
would've really liked the guy. Possibly as knowledgeable as you or I, not
outrageously stupid about it anyway, merely criminal.)

#7. A "slow" young man who was hired primarily because he had a truck &
could be sent on deliveries, & was strong enough to move a fairly large
potted trees about, over time learned to interact with public well, so
deserves the job, despite that the only qualification was having a truck.

#8. An old man who for whatever reasons couldn't stay retired, reliable
worker, takes good care of plants at a leading & first-rate nursery, but
knows next to nothing beyond how to water the plants. Ask him anything,
simple or obscure, he calls someone else over to give the answer. Sweet
guy. I wouldn't fire him. He's not an addict, not a thief, & not one
sidewalk crack away from institutionalization, so he's actually high-end
as garden center workers go!

I could of course also list the sorts of nursery owners & a few workers
who really ARE the founts of knowledge you fancy as the norm. Though
frankly the MOST knowledgeable are among growers & hybridizers rather than
retailers. "Smart" retailers are the ones who know their way through a
Sunset Guide & don't try to fake it; that's honest at least.

Still, I've only slight doubt a similar list of people could be pulled
together that might well show some small element of truth to your sense
that it is among retailer workers (whose primary mission is sell stuff
other people grew) is where great gardening knowledge exists. Well hell,
I've been asked to come to work in local nurseries in three locations at
different times, when they were in need, & each time I turned them down
because I have my own business to run & don't need even a part-time job. I
might like to believe that if I had accepted any of these offers, then
there'd be a retail worker who knew a thing or two. But from your point of
view (on your bad-mood day at least) you might add me to the list above as
one more to prove MY point rather than yours.

Whether or not it were true that there are Doctors of Horticulture whose
goal in life was to become nursery retailers & succeeded at your boss's
nursery, & however nice that might be if you weren't exaggerating, it
remains that such knowledge isn't necessary to be a garden retailer
whether for Wal Mart or for Huge Independent Garden Center Incorporated.
Ability at the check-out counter PLUS a general capacity to water the
pansies correctly would be one trait ahead of the Lowe's garden managers,
but still not requiring even so little as a green thumb, let alone the PhD
you've conferred on the whole crew.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

What an interesting thread...

I know it's about Ciscoe, but this caught my eye:

...The nursery was founded in the 1950s & he's run it for about
one-fifth of its life (I don't believe it will survive him). He's
apparently too happily stoned for new knowledge to sink in, but in his
bumbling way he tries, & I'm not making fun of him.

Is this by any chance Sky Nursery? I hope not; much as I'd love to meet
a friendly pothead gardener (being one such myself, sometimes), I'd hate
to think it's in danger of closing.

The other stories are fascinating examples of the wide range of people
who end up in the plant business. Good reading.
--
........................
Live from
Number 54
The house
with the
bamboo door!