Thank you very much, Brent.
I am beginning to feel like a perfect fool regarding this grafting question,
but at the same time I'm thinking myself quite privileged for having
received such great answers. I shall try to contact Leo Coolwyn and the
chief organiser of the AABC 2003 Seminar in Melbourne, who is a
dyed-in-the-wool bonsai nurseryman, to see if I can get some more info on
Coolwyn's findings.
Lisa
"Brent Walston" wrote in message
ic.net...
At 06:18 PM 6/7/03 +1000, Lisa Kanis wrote:
At the recent Australian Associated Bonsai Clubs' annual Seminar, we had
a
talk by Leo Coolwyn, who is a wholesale nurseryman with a great deal of
experience in growing and propagating conifers. One of the subjects he
spoke
about was the latent incompatibility of the Japanese Black Pine and the
Japanese White Pine when it comes to grafting. The 5 needle White Pine is
commonly grafted onto the more vigorous 2 needle Black Pine and for a
number
of years this appears to be working well, but it has been found that
eventually, the White Pine gradually deteriorates and dies. This may
happen
as late as 15 to 20 years after the graft has taken. According to Mr
Coolwyn, pine grafting has to be specific, i.e. 5 needle pines onto 5
needle
pines, 2 needle onto 2 needle, and so on.
I wonder about the source of the information. Is this anecdotal, or has
there been some serious study of the alleged problem? I have seen many P.
parviflora grafted to P. thunbergii that are older than 15 to 20 years.
Any
time you see a white pine semi cascade with rough bark and a peculiar
coiled pattern (from an imbedded wire) with a transition to smooth bark,
it
is P.p. to P.t. Most of these come from Japan.
http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/...s/rebs0214.jpg
The tree above is probably forty to fifty years old. The only way to know
for sure if there is a problem is to cut open the graft union of a tree
that has 'failed' and study the pattern.
I asked on which pine the Japanese White could be grafted as there aren't
that many 5 needle pines to choose from, and whether in the end there was
any sense in grafting it at all. The answer was that, at the moment, that
was the big question, but the matter was being researched.
In the US, the pine of choice is P. strobus, but I have also used P.
strobiformis (both five needled white pine). Of course it can be grafted
to
itself, P.p. to P.p. to obtain cultivars, but this doesn't solve the
problems that P.p species has when growing in other than its native
habitat.
I am posting this because I wonder if more is known by specialised
horticulturists in N.America.
I am continuing to graft to P.p. to P.t. No observed problems in the first
five years. In fact the opposite has been true. They have done much better
on P.t. than on anything else, but of course if there is a latent
incompatibility, it won't show for many more years. It is difficult for me
to believe that if there is a problem, it has not been documented by the
Japanese who have been doing this for decades if not centuries.
Additionally, I have two questions:
1) There have been many complaints about the difficulty of growing the
Japanese White Pine. Could the above have anything to do with it?
The 'difficult' part is certainly true, but I have just as much trouble
growing seedlings as the grafts. I don't think this is the problem since
my
P.p. to P.t. grafts have been more vigorous and better survivors than any
of the other grafts or seedlings. What I have found about P.p., at least
in
containers, is that you cannot expose them to direct sunlight when it is
very hot (100+F). The needles will scorch and the roots will die from the
overheated pots. Growing them under 30 to 40% shadecloth all day seems to
solve this. I have had very few losses since keeping them under shadecloth
all spring, summer, and fall. They are still as vigorous, if not more so.
2) A lot of people swear by the importance of buying trees imported from
Japan. I have always wondered why. Do Japanese grafting methods differ
from
those used in the West, by any chance?
No, I doubt if that is the answer to the problem, if there is one. The
method of course is the side veneer graft, the Japanese use it too.
Are Japanese trees more viable?
No.
I will venture a guess. P.p are difficult to grow outside their native
habitat, _period_. Your speaker, I take it, is speaking from AU
experience.
Most of AU has a Mediterranean climate similar to mine, that is, very hot
dry summer, long cool wet winter, just like ours. This is a most difficult
climate for P.p. This species often dies for no apparent reason. It would
be quite easy to blame it on graft incompatibilty, but I want proof. I
won't believe it until I see pictures of the wood pattern in the graft
union. It should be quite obvious.
I will relate a similar situation. For years US Northwest nurserymen, all
respected folk and otherwise good human beings, maintained that you
couldn't grow Japanese maple cultivars on their own roots, they were too
weak and would eventually die. Of course all these folk had a lot invested
in grafting Acer palmatum cultivars. I'm not saying this is deliberate
deceit, however, it doesn influence your view of the world. After decades
of successful cutting production of A.p., you rarely hear this view
anymore. The big problem is not having the cuttings survive, it's getting
them to root in the first place. Nearly all of the broadleaf cultivars
are
happy as clams on their own roots and not too difficult to propagate. You
don't see the dissectum cuttings for the simple reason that they are
nearly
impossible to root and grafting is the onlly commerically viable option.
Brent in Northern California
Evergreen Gardenworks USDA Zone 8 Sunset Zone 14
http://www.EvergreenGardenworks.com
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