It is nice to see a lively discussion , I agree, Jim. It has been quiet.

One month of participation in the aesthetics list would convince one to
develop very broad parameters for both defining and judging artistic
attempts. The arguments among those people of whom almost all are post
graduates and beyond in either philosophy or art are staggering to
comprehend, and they have the language, the knowledge of new visual
studies, brain scans, etc. They have the science.
Art is viewed by many philosophers to be a Natural human activity that
everyone partakes of in some manner. We do have uncountable uses for
recognizing a " state of the art " - from painting (so common in our
cultures here and in Europe) through tailoring, cooking, ikebana, and you
can add another 30 or so, then compare their categories of achievement.
Oh, and animals (not thinking of the painting elephants and primates) even
might be considered to have some tendency if you will think of art as
creating. Tools are created to create, and -- well, it is hopeless to
stay in a narrow dimension. It seems to be part of the evolution parcel.
I have seen the dimensions enlarge over decades and man's creativity
called art. The only time any one seems to hesitate is when "fine art" is
mentioned, but as the planet has become so easy for us to move around with
our present comunication abilities we realize that has considerable cultural
crooks and bends. and may refer to commercial categories, or museum pieces
in western cultures.
I think your conversation is worthwhile, but not indicative of what is
happening now among those whose study is to try to keep up with this human
activity. The language grows and changes so fast - and the values,
qualities, functions and world-wide connections now are almost impossible to
keep up with. I would lean to wider dimensions than most that are
mentioned. What seriously applies in one art just might apply to all - see
how widely the thoughts can stretch to include all art then begin to find
the edges and dimensions.

BTW, I do call bonsai an art form, and suiseki, and I wish I had a bit
of Wolfgang Puck's ability in his art, and will wish for ever that I could
sing in the upper ranges of the musical world of art. I totally failed at
ballet by the time I was 14. Our personal art capability probably affects
our values and judgments. But, I only wonder or question.
Our exchanges reveal individual experience and where it was, so, of
course, they differ. That is as it should be, some difference definitely
or we would all create the same tree, same house, and, worse, the same
tools.
You can hit on function and decorative categories for some very
interesting discussions. How does a bonsai function? as art?

Lynn
Lynn Boyd, Oregon, USA

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