Jim;

Thanks for moving this thread. It's become rather cumbersome in the gallery.

I agree with your comments on art.

My basic question is ..... What is an artist?

My _personal_ interpretation of the word "artist", is a person who takes raw
materials and _creates_ something from within his/her imagination. A
sculptor creates from a lump of clay, a painter from a collection of paints,
etc.
If left untouched, the lump of clay will remain a lump of clay, bottles of
paint will remain nothing more than bottles of paint. No matter how long
they're left, they won't even apply themselves to the canvas.

I can hardly classify bonsai as an art form. If left on their own, our trees
will often turn themselves into something far beyond our human manipulative
capabilities.

In bonsai, we learn how to manipulate a living organism (even a seed) into
something that's pleasing to the eye. As bonsai practitioners we have some
control over things like trunk/branch size and shape. Through education and
practice we've learned how to grow a branch where we want one, form jin and
shari in eye pleasing spots, even bend trunks/branches/roots where we want
them, but we certainly can not control basic things like color and
flower/fruit size etc.

I consider bonsai to be the practice of horticulture on pot grown trees.
To create an eye pleasing bonsai, one first learns the rules (often laws) of
growth and manipulation.
Through study and practice, one learns how to apply these rules towards the
development of a tree that often takes a eye pleasing shape. However, leave
it alone for a year or two, and it's back to it's natural form, headed for
the wild.

Obviously, bonsai can't be considered an art form.

Maybe we should refer to ourselves as bonsai enthusiasts, technicians,
technologists, scientists, practitioners, engineers, even masters, but
artists???? Doesn't work for me.


Regards
Mark Hill - Harrisburg PA
Bonsai Enthusiast (read "In training")
Zone 6a



-----Original Message-----
From: Internet Bonsai Club ] On Behalf Of
Jim Lewis

snip

And, Bonsai, per se is NOT an art -- I don't care how many time
an insecure person declares that it is.

/snip

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I don't usually get involved in these "art" discussions, but here are my two
cents worth.

I tend to agree with those who consider bonsai an art. As someone mentioned
on the gallery, there are good, bad, and mediocre artists, but no mater
which category the artist's creation falls into, the fact that he/she is
creating art makes that person an artist.

Regarding the statement that bonsai can't be considered art because it will
change if left alone; bonsai is a unique form of art in that the medium is
living and ever-changing, and must be maintained constantly. I don't
believe that the fact that a bonsai will deteriorate if not kept up negates
the fact that it is a work of art. If I remember correctly the paintings on
the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel are (or were) flaking off and
deteriorating. They are only still there because of the intervention of
those who have stabilized and restored them. Does the fact that they were
deteriorating mean that these paintings are not art? I don't think so.

Regards,
Roger Snipes Spokane, WA Zone 5, or maybe Zone 6.
Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it, misdiagnosing it,
and then misapplying the wrong remedies. Groucho Marx (1895-1977)

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************************************************** ******************************
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Art is in the eye of the beholder. How many times have you heard that
expression? Well, I believe it. A bonsai is an expression of art if it
moves you. If not, it's just another piece of artisanship. I tie art
together with emotion (or the evocation thereof).
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Hill"
To:
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 4:02 PM
Subject: [IBC] Another "art" debate?


Jim;

Thanks for moving this thread. It's become rather cumbersome in the
gallery.

I agree with your comments on art.

My basic question is ..... What is an artist?

My _personal_ interpretation of the word "artist", is a person who takes
raw
materials and _creates_ something from within his/her imagination. A
sculptor creates from a lump of clay, a painter from a collection of
paints,
etc.
If left untouched, the lump of clay will remain a lump of clay, bottles of
paint will remain nothing more than bottles of paint. No matter how long
they're left, they won't even apply themselves to the canvas.

I can hardly classify bonsai as an art form. If left on their own, our
trees
will often turn themselves into something far beyond our human
manipulative
capabilities.

In bonsai, we learn how to manipulate a living organism (even a seed) into
something that's pleasing to the eye. As bonsai practitioners we have some
control over things like trunk/branch size and shape. Through education
and
practice we've learned how to grow a branch where we want one, form jin
and
shari in eye pleasing spots, even bend trunks/branches/roots where we want
them, but we certainly can not control basic things like color and
flower/fruit size etc.

I consider bonsai to be the practice of horticulture on pot grown trees.
To create an eye pleasing bonsai, one first learns the rules (often laws)
of
growth and manipulation.
Through study and practice, one learns how to apply these rules towards
the
development of a tree that often takes a eye pleasing shape. However,
leave
it alone for a year or two, and it's back to it's natural form, headed for
the wild.

Obviously, bonsai can't be considered an art form.

Maybe we should refer to ourselves as bonsai enthusiasts, technicians,
technologists, scientists, practitioners, engineers, even masters, but
artists???? Doesn't work for me.


Regards
Mark Hill - Harrisburg PA
Bonsai Enthusiast (read "In training")
Zone 6a



-----Original Message-----
From: Internet Bonsai Club ] On Behalf
Of
Jim Lewis

snip

And, Bonsai, per se is NOT an art -- I don't care how many time
an insecure person declares that it is.

/snip


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****
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****
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I don't usually get involved in these "art" discussions, but
here are my two
cents worth.

Glad you did. It's been dull here for months now.


I tend to agree with those who consider bonsai an art. As
someone mentioned
on the gallery, there are good, bad, and mediocre artists, but
no mater
which category the artist's creation falls into, the fact that
he/she is
creating art makes that person an artist.

No way! "Bad" and "mediocre" bonsaiests are NOT creating art. A
painting isn't "art" because it's a painting. It is art because
it is GOOD!

(I've been doing bonsai almost 30 years. I have not -- and
probably never will -- created a "work of art." I DO have a few
fairly nice trees. But art they ain't.)

Regarding the statement that bonsai can't be considered art
because it will
change if left alone; bonsai is a unique form of art in that
the medium is
living and ever-changing, and must be maintained constantly. I
don't
believe that the fact that a bonsai will deteriorate if not
kept up negates
the fact that it is a work of art. If I remember correctly the
paintings on
the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel are (or were) flaking off and
deteriorating. They are only still there because of the
intervention of
those who have stabilized and restored them. Does the fact
that they were
deteriorating mean that these paintings are not art? I don't
think so.

Of course not. The picture and the vision always was there under
the crud of centuries. The Sistine Chapel paintings (now fully
restored, but you STILL can only view them in groups of 500 --
NOT the way it was intended they be viewed!) never ceased being
art.

That bonsai left in the back yard and watered by rainwater and
grown wild, with broken and dead branches may have been art once,
but the vision is gone! Someone may be able to take that tree
and make it art once again, but IT WILL NOT BE THE SAME ART.
Gosh, if this wasn't true, Bonsai Today would be out of business
with all of its "masterpiece makovers". ;-)

A bonsai that is art DOES have to be cosseted and maintained
incessantly if it is to keep on being art.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - The phrase
'sustainable growth' is an oxymoron. - Stephen Viederman

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************************************************** ******************************
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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Jim: Your debate only makes sense by using semantic illusion. You have created a
definition of art to fit your argument. Durability is a rather novel criterion for
defining art. While you might find someone making that argument in an obscure
reference, durability is not a widely held criterion for defining art.
I believe all art is ephemeral. Change is the key constant in our
universe. (Well, along with death and taxes!)
Alan Walker, Lake Charles, LA, USA
http://LCBSBonsai.org http://bonsai-bci.com
==================================
Jim Lewis wrote:
I don't usually get involved in these "art" discussions, but here are my two cents
worth.
===
Glad you did. It's been dull here for months now.
===
I tend to agree with those who consider bonsai an art. As someone mentioned on the
gallery, there are good, bad, and mediocre artists, but
no mater which category the artist's creation falls into, the fact that
he/she is creating art makes that person an artist.
===
No way! "Bad" and "mediocre" bonsaiists are NOT creating art. A
painting isn't "art" because it's a painting. It is art because
it is GOOD!
(I've been doing bonsai almost 30 years. I have not -- and probably never
will -- created a "work of art." I DO have a few fairly nice trees. But art they
ain't.)
===
Regarding the statement that bonsai can't be considered art because it will
change if left alone; bonsai is a unique form of art in that the medium is living
and ever-changing, and must be maintained constantly. I don't believe that the fact
that a bonsai will deteriorate if not kept up negates the fact that it is a work of
art. If I remember correctly the paintings on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel are
(or were) flaking off and deteriorating. They are only still there because of the
intervention of those who have stabilized and restored them. Does the fact
that they were deteriorating mean that these paintings are not art? I don't
think so.
===
Of course not. The picture and the vision always was there under the crud
of centuries. The Sistine Chapel paintings (now fully restored, but you STILL can
only view them in groups of 500 -- NOT the way it was intended they be viewed!)
never ceased being art.
That bonsai left in the back yard and watered by rainwater and grown wild,
with broken and dead branches may have been art once, but the vision is gone!
Someone may be able to take that tree and make it art once again, but IT WILL NOT BE
THE SAME ART. Gosh, if this wasn't true, Bonsai Today would be out of business with
all of its "masterpiece makeovers". ;-)
A bonsai that is art DOES have to be cosseted and maintained incessantly if
it is to keep on being art.
Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL

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I agree with Alan, just because the design of a bonsai is transitory, that
doesn't mean it isn't art.

Jim, you also say that a painting (or a bonsai) must be "good" to be art.
Is that "good" as defined only by you, or do other people's definition of
"good" also make art? I have seen a lot of art that I don't think is very
"good", as I suspect we all have, but others seem to like it and consider it
to be art.

Regards,
Roger Snipes Spokane, WA Zone 5, or maybe Zone 6.
Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it, misdiagnosing it,
and then misapplying the wrong remedies. Groucho Marx (1895-1977)

----- Original Message -----

Jim: Your debate only makes sense by using semantic illusion. You have
created a
definition of art to fit your argument. Durability is a rather novel
criterion for
defining art. While you might find someone making that argument in an
obscure
reference, durability is not a widely held criterion for defining art.
I believe all art is ephemeral. Change is the key constant in our
universe. (Well, along with death and taxes!)

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Lisa Kanis++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Roger;

I researched the word "artist" and was amazed at how loosely it is defined.
The Encarta online dictionary defines artist as ....

skilled person: somebody who does something with great skill and creativity
"an artist with a basketball"

Given this loose definition, I assume that anyone can be considered at
artist if he can convince others that he is doing something "with great
skill and creativity". So, if my mother thinks my trees took great skill and
are creative, then in her eyes, I must be an artist !!

Thanks to Roger and Encarta for clearing this up.


Mark Hill - Harrisburg PA
Zone 6a
Bonsai Artist (at least to my mother !!)



-----Original Message-----
From: Internet Bonsai Club ] On Behalf Of
Roger Snipes
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 6:27 PM
To:
Subject: [IBC] FW: [IBC] Another "art" debate?

Mark,

I agree, I also would not call the technicians who save a deteriorating
painting artists. So, by that definition the "collectors", as referenced in
the discussion on the gallery, who buy a bonsai and merely maintain it would
not necessarily be considered artists. I feel that the person who
originally styled the bonsai is properly called an artist, however.

Regards,
Roger Snipes Spokane, WA Zone 5, or maybe Zone 6.
Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it, misdiagnosing it,
and then misapplying the wrong remedies. Groucho Marx (1895-1977)


Roger;

I agree (in part).

The fact that old artworks are preserved by "technicians" to replace
flaking
paint or to remove centuries of dirt, does not change the fact that they
are
fine examples of artwork.

I do have difficulty defining those technicians as artists, simply because
they helped restore the original pieces of art.

Mark Hill - Harrisburg PA
Zone 6
Bonsai Enthusiast

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****
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"Alan Walker" wrote in message
...
Jim: Your debate only makes sense by using semantic illusion.
You have created a
definition of art to fit your argument. Durability is a rather
novel criterion for
defining art. While you might find someone making that
argument in an obscure
reference, durability is not a widely held criterion for
defining art.
I believe all art is ephemeral. Change is the key
constant in our
universe. (Well, along with death and taxes!)

Sorry, Alan, but I don't understand.

I never defined art as being durable -- anywhere. I define art
as a painting, sculpture, symphony (or bonsai, I suppose) that is
aesthetically pleasing. Paintings, sculptures, symphonies (or
bonsai) that are NOT aesthetically pleasing are NOT art.

I must not have been clear. Sorry.

(And ephemeral is as ephemeral does, I suppose. Ol' Mike's
"David" has been around for a while. Rodin's "thinker" will be
around until someone melts it down.)

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - The phrase
'sustainable growth' is an oxymoron. - Stephen Viederman

"Roger Snipes" wrote in message
news:009801c38f7e$ab7aaa20$d2d2ffd8@46ndp01...
I agree with Alan, just because the design of a bonsai is
transitory, that
doesn't mean it isn't art.


Guys, I never said it wasn't. A well-maintained bonsai can be
art. I have said that twice now (at least). But leave that tree
alone for 3-4 years and it becomes NOT art.

Read what I say, please. :-(


Jim, you also say that a painting (or a bonsai) must be "good"
to be art.
Is that "good" as defined only by you, or do other people's
definition of
"good" also make art? I have seen a lot of art that I don't
think is very
"good", as I suspect we all have, but others seem to like it
and consider it
to be art.

There is a consensus among those who make these decisions as to
what is "good." I would not spend a counterfeit nickle for
anything by Jackson Pollack. But somewhere there is a consensus
that he made art.

I never (AGAIN!) implied that it was MY definition of "good."
Among bonsaiests, there is a consensus that Kimura's trees are
"art." I don't particularly care for Kimura's work, but I won't
argue that it isn't art.

HOWEVER, Kimura's very "busy" trees probably would be the primary
example of a tree that, ignored for several years, soon would
deteriorate to something that no longer is art.

Speaking of "misdiagnosing . . . "

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - The phrase
'sustainable growth' is an oxymoron. - Stephen Viederman


Regards,
Roger Snipes Spokane, WA Zone 5, or
maybe Zone 6.
Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it,
misdiagnosing it,
and then misapplying the wrong remedies. Groucho Marx
(1895-1977)

It is nice to see a lively discussion , I agree, Jim. It has been quiet.

One month of participation in the aesthetics list would convince one to
develop very broad parameters for both defining and judging artistic
attempts. The arguments among those people of whom almost all are post
graduates and beyond in either philosophy or art are staggering to
comprehend, and they have the language, the knowledge of new visual
studies, brain scans, etc. They have the science.
Art is viewed by many philosophers to be a Natural human activity that
everyone partakes of in some manner. We do have uncountable uses for
recognizing a " state of the art " - from painting (so common in our
cultures here and in Europe) through tailoring, cooking, ikebana, and you
can add another 30 or so, then compare their categories of achievement.
Oh, and animals (not thinking of the painting elephants and primates) even
might be considered to have some tendency if you will think of art as
creating. Tools are created to create, and -- well, it is hopeless to
stay in a narrow dimension. It seems to be part of the evolution parcel.
I have seen the dimensions enlarge over decades and man's creativity
called art. The only time any one seems to hesitate is when "fine art" is
mentioned, but as the planet has become so easy for us to move around with
our present comunication abilities we realize that has considerable cultural
crooks and bends. and may refer to commercial categories, or museum pieces
in western cultures.
I think your conversation is worthwhile, but not indicative of what is
happening now among those whose study is to try to keep up with this human
activity. The language grows and changes so fast - and the values,
qualities, functions and world-wide connections now are almost impossible to
keep up with. I would lean to wider dimensions than most that are
mentioned. What seriously applies in one art just might apply to all - see
how widely the thoughts can stretch to include all art then begin to find
the edges and dimensions.

BTW, I do call bonsai an art form, and suiseki, and I wish I had a bit
of Wolfgang Puck's ability in his art, and will wish for ever that I could
sing in the upper ranges of the musical world of art. I totally failed at
ballet by the time I was 14. Our personal art capability probably affects
our values and judgments. But, I only wonder or question.
Our exchanges reveal individual experience and where it was, so, of
course, they differ. That is as it should be, some difference definitely
or we would all create the same tree, same house, and, worse, the same
tools.
You can hit on function and decorative categories for some very
interesting discussions. How does a bonsai function? as art?

Lynn
Lynn Boyd, Oregon, USA

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Lynn said:

With a lot of snipping of good stuff.....

Art is viewed by many philosophers to be a
Natural human activity that
everyone partakes of in some manner.

Clartissa Pinkola Estes, the Jungian Psychologist,
says every act of arrangement and placement is
considered a creative effort. That all humans create
art every day and that is is unhealthy stop doing
these things, no matter how little they are. She goes
on to say that doing art is as important to the human
psyche as elimation is to the human body. She
suggests a creative dump daily for optimum mental
health.

I think your conversation is worthwhile, but
not indicative of what is
happening now among those whose study is to try to
keep up with this human
activity. The language grows and changes so fast -
and the values,
qualities, functions and world-wide connections now
are almost impossible to
keep up with. I would lean to wider dimensions than
most that are
mentioned. What seriously applies in one art just
might apply to all - see
how widely the thoughts can stretch to include all
art then begin to find
the edges and dimensions.

I find much verbal communication lacking in the color
given by watching a person express themselves. I have
seen many of these types of discussions on the
internet. It becomes a very cerebral effort and, to
me, it begins to lack passion and life. It's a head
trip instead of a heart trip. I too have been guilty
of this type of communication. It is just an
observation and not a judgement.

BTW, I do call bonsai an art form, and
suiseki, and I wish I had a bit
of Wolfgang Puck's ability in his art, and will
wish for ever that I could
sing in the upper ranges of the musical world of
art. I totally failed at
ballet by the time I was 14. Our personal art
capability probably affects
our values and judgments. But, I only wonder or
question.

How about dancing? It too is a moving rather than
static art. Or the orchestration the life of a young
child? What about the journey rather than product?
Why does mankind feel it necessary to judge and
catogorize what others do with passion?

I would like to hear more about what art means to you
instead of what it should be.

Thanks Lynn,

Kitsune Miko

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From: Kitsune Miko
I would like to hear more about what art means to you
instead of what it should be.

--------------------
I did not mean to be saying what it should be! - only that I wish some
would extend their parameters, and that may be because I would like to see
bonsai included I don't mind saying why, but not with any "should"
attached !
Bonsai has a Japanese past that carried a metaphor - an ideal for
life, a reverence for nature. Metaphor is hard to nail down specifically,
but we know it was an admirable outlook. It was like an icon - not
comparable to those in some religion altogether, of course, but iconic,
nevertheless. It has an expressive substance. If we call our expressive
works art, then I want to call theirs art. But, it is a subjective,
really, not a logical or rationally argued notion I have. The idea just
resonates with my level of perceiving. I know Ernie doesn't feel that way
- since someone mentioned Ernie's viewpoint - but what very special concept
underlies his feelings, born out of his life experiences, I can't know, but
it may be greater in value than any I or others have, so I only wonder. In
the long run all we do is exchange life experiences that developed our
attitudes or perceptions, I suspect.
I asked -how does bonsai function - as art?
It seems to me to function in three ways, for Me - not everyone, and those
a It is expressive of an ideal (metaphoric), it provides artistic
beauty with elements that are universally considered to define beauty
(rules? and maybe most importantly, it stirs one to dedication,
devotion, discipline. In a nutshell it requires love.
And I do think it is a hobby if one feels that way about it. I seldom
use that term because I called golf my hobby and that simply doesn't
compare on some levels - I swear sometimes on the golf course, but will
grieve sometimes for a bonsai
Lynn

Lynn Boyd, Oregon, USA

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Good Day to All,

Lynn,

though I tend to fall squarely in Jim's opinion of Bonsai/Art,
and am pretty much concreted on matters of where Bonsai
/Tree Penjing lies in my "Art Universe",I always query this
debate to make Bonsai into ART.

Why?

It always feels like what someone on the Clayart list once
stated.Essentially - Art costs more than Craft.
So if you want to make money,push the angle that it is ART.

I am afraid I don't have a great deal of time to run around
stating to anyone that I am an Artist.I just do.

Bonsai/Tree Penjing is an enjoyable pastime,which can be
done commercially or as a hobby.There will always be those
who have more to give to the situation and they will spring up
anywhere.Some may need money,some notoriety,others
whatever.Each situation is highly individual and so is the
response.

I guess what ruffles my feathers is when you can sense that
someone is simply a fraud.Not sincere.

As to the great intellects that debate the changeable [ or
seemingly changeable ] nature of man,I prefer to leave the talking
/talkers alone and instead substitute - do.

I guess the reason the list goes quiet so often now is that most
of the general questions have been answered and the questioners
of philosophy in the group have either left or are partially
content.

For me Bonsai/Tree Penjing remains much the same.
I enjoy growing trees,and as a plus I can make the pots,stands
or the other companion pieces.
It's a -"cheap"- situation,from seed to collected or bought tree,
to clay to pot,wood to stands.This doesn't often happen in today's
world.
AND I am a cheap person - chuckle.

Stay well all you debaters,it's the wet season here in the West
Indies/Caribbean and my soils are spent.Awaiting the 2nd of January
for the grand repotting.
Khaimraj

*For the curious - We have had in the earlier days of the Bonsai
Society,Japanese onlookers offering $25,000.00 US for Buttonwoods
and they were refused.

I guess when you key up a culture to collect,they are easy to
manipulate.

Down here Bonsai is for those with lots of slow time,the older ,or rich and
idle.Very few young people last more than a few years,as family life
takes over.



-----Original Message-----
From: Lynn Boyd
To:
Date: 10 October 2003 18:19
Subject: [IBC] Another "art" debate?


It is nice to see a lively discussion , I agree, Jim. It has been quiet.

One month of participation in the aesthetics list would convince one to
develop very broad parameters for both defining and judging artistic
attempts. The arguments among those people of whom almost all are post
graduates and beyond in either philosophy or art are staggering to
comprehend, and they have the language, the knowledge of new visual
studies, brain scans, etc. They have the science.
Art is viewed by many philosophers to be a Natural human activity that
everyone partakes of in some manner. We do have uncountable uses for
recognizing a " state of the art " - from painting (so common in our
cultures here and in Europe) through tailoring, cooking, ikebana, and you
can add another 30 or so, then compare their categories of achievement.
Oh, and animals (not thinking of the painting elephants and primates) even
might be considered to have some tendency if you will think of art as
creating. Tools are created to create, and -- well, it is hopeless to
stay in a narrow dimension. It seems to be part of the evolution parcel.
I have seen the dimensions enlarge over decades and man's creativity
called art. The only time any one seems to hesitate is when "fine art" is
mentioned, but as the planet has become so easy for us to move around with
our present comunication abilities we realize that has considerable
cultural
crooks and bends. and may refer to commercial categories, or museum pieces
in western cultures.
I think your conversation is worthwhile, but not indicative of what
is
happening now among those whose study is to try to keep up with this human
activity. The language grows and changes so fast - and the values,
qualities, functions and world-wide connections now are almost impossible
to
keep up with. I would lean to wider dimensions than most that are
mentioned. What seriously applies in one art just might apply to all - see
how widely the thoughts can stretch to include all art then begin to find
the edges and dimensions.

BTW, I do call bonsai an art form, and suiseki, and I wish I had a
bit
of Wolfgang Puck's ability in his art, and will wish for ever that I could
sing in the upper ranges of the musical world of art. I totally failed at
ballet by the time I was 14. Our personal art capability probably affects
our values and judgments. But, I only wonder or question.
Our exchanges reveal individual experience and where it was, so, of
course, they differ. That is as it should be, some difference definitely
or we would all create the same tree, same house, and, worse, the same
tools.
You can hit on function and decorative categories for some very
interesting discussions. How does a bonsai function? as art?

Lynn
Lynn Boyd, Oregon, USA

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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++