"Ivan McDonagh" wrote in message
7.67...
Thanks for the reply Andrew ... I have made some more comments in the
quoted text.
"Andrew G" wrote in
:
"Ivan McDonagh" wrote in message
7.67...
SNIP
yet another snip
Mixing it all together will only do good to the sand. The clippings
are organic matter, and will provide some nutrients to the lifeless
sand.
I am thinking that a
covering of fresh clippings to about 300mm (12 inches) will be enough
to encourage fairly quick decomposition but not so deep as to
encourage acidity and bad smells?
Still mix it all together. You will get some smell from the
clippings, but turning it all over every few days will help it rot,
and avoid smell. Don't overdo it with the chook poo. I wouldn't go any
stronger than 1 part chook poo, 2 parts sand/grass mix. Even that's
too strong, maybe 1/5th chook poo would be better.
I obviously wasn't thinking very clearly when I wrote 300mm 
The depth of grass clippings that's appropriate (I think) is closer to
30mm
rather than *300mm*. I didn't consider that AFAIK a rotary hoe is only
good
to about 300mm anyway and so a covering of grass to that depth would
completely miss the point of mixing the grass and the sand together.
snippage
The grass sand and chook poo will be your hot compost, or you can get
some from elsewhere to add?
If it's the first don't bet on having really hot great compost. Other
stuff would be needed, such as sawdust and other organic material like
leaves, mulched leaves, etc. If it's the second mentioned, then Adding
compost would be good.
Yes, using the figures I gave originally you are quite correct.
Unfortunately, that quantity of grass and chook poo just won't be
available
in the time frame required to hot compost all over the garden bed. So, the
process will be as I described before - thin layers of grass repeatedly
hoed under until the money is available for the chook poo and clay.
The thin layers should do the job well.
The compost will be home-made using grass, chook poo, straw, thin
sunflower
stems, prunings from the neighbours plants *grins* and whatever else I can
get my grubby little mitts onto.
Great stuff, pity you couldn't make enough of that mix to raise the garden
to the height you want and mix with the sand.
The figures I think I'm looking at are about 2 tonnes of clay (for a
100m^2
garden area), about 40m^3 of chook poo and about the same of grass
clippings.
That's a hell of a lot of chook poo. Roughly, that is 40 bobcat
buckets of poo and 40 of grass clippings. To give you an idea, again
roughly 4-5 bobcat buckets of soil fills a small dyna tipper truck (2
or 3 tonne truck). Over a 100square metre area that will raise the
ground level by approx 70cm.
Well, the way I see it: 100m^2 X raised height = 40m^3
Therefore, raised height = 40m^3 / 100m^2 which gives 0.4m or 400mm.
To simplify the maths, let's assume that I will use a total of 100m^3 of
material (grass and poo in some proportion). That will give a maximum
raised height of 1m.
Yeah I agree, I just made the wrong assumption. I always think of 20cm high
or so for raised gardens :-)
My understanding of the decomposition process is that the raw materials
will eventually be reduced to 1/4 of original volume (based on using
compost bins and a "proper" C:N ratio at the start). I can see no reason
why this wouldn't apply in the garden as well - just far more slowly
because the C:N ratio will not necessarily be what is required for the
compost beasties to do their thing.
However, let's assume that the volume reduces by only 1/2. That would mean
I have raised the bed by 500mm. During this process there is certain to be
an amount of compaction caused by watering and finally by the binding
process of the clay that I intend to add at some stage. I'll assume this
to
be 1/4 of the now reduced volume. 500/4 = 125. Therefore, the garden bed
will be raised by approximately 375mm - 400mm. This is about perfect for
me.
Good point, and something I never thought of.
It is too much chook poo by far. The
amount of clay you would want to add to that 100square metre area
would be enough to raise the gl by about 20cm, and then dig it in.
Maybe add the same amount of grass clippings by size, not weight, then
probably 5cm high layer of chook poo at the most. No, actually half
that. With all the clay, you will want to add some clay breaker or
gypsum to it.
I don't know if it makes any difference to your comment, Andrew, "It is
too
much chook poo by far." that I will be using "aged" chook poo from the egg
farm nearby ? (The farmer said to me "it's all dried out and ready to be
dug straight in"). My understanding of dried chook poo is that it has an
N:P:K analysis of approximately 0.4:0.3:0.3.
The aged chook poo will break down less, and be less "burning" to plants,
so that will be good.
Still, take into account that it may have an effect on the roots of plants
in high doses.
Were you referring to the nutrient levels that I would be adding of the
effect on the ground level ?
Kinda both really. Still as you explain it above it becomes clearer.
The clay effect I have no idea of and I am quite happy to take your word
regarding the effect on the ground level.
Look down to where you say how the clay will come deleivered.
I understand that the garden will be a bit higher at the end of this
process than it is now but that's not a problem since it is well
below the desired level already.
Ok, so I read that bit now :-). I would possibly look at getting some
clean fill for the area first as it could be cheaper, then look at
improving that. The way you are going to do it may be costly, and the
pH may need correcting big time at the end of it all.
Really the chook poo can't be used as bulk for the clay and soil, it
will just add nutrients. The grass clippings will help, slightly, but
that clay still has to be broken down with gypsum.
Ah! Well, clean fill around here tends to mean even more sand - I have
only
to dig 500mm and I have enough good yellow sand to start my own mine! I
acknowledge what you say about the expense but if I have to improve sand
anyway then I might as well use grass clippings for bulk and nitrogen
(hopefully) and chook poo for P and K. I expect that the chook poo and
clay
will greatly assist the water retention properties of the sand also which,
apart from the nutrient aspect, is the point of the whole exercise.
Yeah the clay definitely will, and the chook poo to a small extent.
Break down the clay ? I'm obviously so ignorant as to be dangerous! For
some reason I was under the impression that bought clay was delivered
dried
and powdered and all I had to do was scatter it, dig it in and water it
well.
I have no idea. As I work at a golf course basically sitting on clay/rock,
then any excavations we do involves messy sticky clodding clay, where you
can end up standing 2 inches taller after walking through it. We recently
rebuilt a green and this large clodding clay clumps was used to shap it and
the surrounding area.
I have never seen the particles, but it sounds good, and if thats the case
disregard anything I said about clay :-)
Sorry to keep coming back with almost the same questions but it's
important
that I do this right as well as cheap.
That's fine, and good luck with it. My advice is my opinion from
experience of working with clay, chook poo and grass clippings on a
daily basis (almost) :-)
Seriously though, work with the clay and sand first. Plants will grow
in that if it's broken down well. Then the clippings will add organic
matter, then at the very end lightly dug in chook poo, then finally
plant a couple of weeks later.
I would love to do the clay first but I really don't have the money for
that. Grass clippings are free including delivery to my door 
I hope I haven't come across as actively disagreeing with your comments
and
suggestions (apart from the maths . I really don't have much of an idea
about improving a large (for me) area and I am just trying to understand
the reasoning and discuss alternatives that are more financially workable
for me.
No problems, it all good
Thanks again for your comments - as you can see above you have given me
plenty to think about.
Ivan.