On 17/2/07 16:56, in article
, "La Puce"
wrote:

On 17 Feb, 16:43, Sacha wrote:
Charlie did not advise me to see that variety at Burncoose, he advised me to
ask which they have in their car park. That remark is extremely misleading.

You said you've never heard of Jackmans', that your husband Ray has
never heard of it, that google don't show it and that your books don't
have it. That means you think I'm talking bollox again. I've found the
Jackman's at Burncoose because they sell it and that's the one they
have in their carpark.

If you persist in calling a plant by the wrong name, people cannot find it.
You still call this plant "Jackman's", which is not its name. Charlie
suggested I ask Burncoose which rosemary they have in their car park and I
have done so. Neither Charlie nor Burncoose - yet - have told me this is R.
"Jackman's Prostrate". If it is the one our friends have, all well and good
but if it is not, all your jumping up and down is to no avail. You expect
me to take your word for the name of a plant neither of us has seen at
Burncoose but which I *might* have seen growing in a garden you have never
been to! That is not how plant identification works. I am wary of
accepting that name for it because it is the name given to it by few (two?)
nurseries and because it is not named as a new discovery or breed. This
makes me think that whoever had it first simply didn't know what it was and
called it after the person who gave it to them, or found it in their garden,
or while on holiday etc. That's not unusual and it happens a LOT but it
also means this plant might be known by another name altogether, for longer
and more correctly. This is ALL I have been trying, fruitlessly, to get
over to you.


But that is not even sufficient for you. I have
grown lavenders and rosemaries all my life in England and in France.

My husband has grown more plants than you've ever seen - over 3000 here
alone - but he would never boast as you do or claim to know for certain the
identity of a possibly mis-identified variety he had never actually laid
eyes on. You haven't even *seen* this rosemary in our friends' garden but
now you're an expert on it - please apply a bit of common sense!

And in France my grand dad had so many varieties I have learnt to
distinguish them from their flowers and leaves and then their growing
habit. That's why I asked you about the leaves.

Are you telling me your grandfather grew R. "Jackman's Prostrate" in France,
so that is how you recognised it from my description when even its owners
don't know what it is?

Do you want some proof or are you going to continually confront me
with your unfounded remarks? We can all see that I had given you 5
differents prostratus rosemaries, 2 could be the one of the one you
are looking for. You didn't know about Jackman's and hold and behold
it's the one the nursery Charlie mentioned has in their car park and
has for sale. So you were WRONG.

Oh god, here we go again. You gave me some which were absolutely incapable
of being the one I'm seeking. This is not convincing. You have now gone
back to your old trick of losing your temper when your holy writ is not
accepted and swallowed wholesale. I have *already said* that the variety
our friends have may yet turn out to be the one you name but I have also
said that I am not convinced the name is correct and carefully explained
why. (The variety you're harping on about is not called "Jackman's", for
the umpteenth time and that is why I couldn't find it - your sloppiness, not
mine)

You are cornered and you still go on and on. On food.uk.misc you are
arguing constantly and when you are done with your vile remarks you
move back in here and start again. Then you go on away and it's nice
here. But then you come back and we all have to revolve around Mr and
Mrs Hubbard who know everything. But this time you didn't.

That last remark is very revealing about you, Helene. You would like this
group to revolve around you but because most people have you kill filed,
even you have complained of being given the cold shoulder. So all you're
doing here is going on to prove why that is the case.
You do not contribute to uk.food and it is nothing to do with you, other
than your background stirring, of course.
The sad fact for you Puce, is that unlike you, I neither claim nor pretend
to know everything. Your past record here makes anyone with a grain of
sense be wary of what you say.

You are a trully horrible and sad woman and we can all see your
demented attitude. Carry on Hubbard, it's really funny actually.

And off she goes with the insults and the adolescent foot stamp. Because I
do not accept your every word you become angry and silly and even less
credible. And I'm the one that's supposed to be demented.....

ps. My RSH Herbs encyclopedia has Jackman's. Amazing isn't it.


It has been sent to the Plant Finder, that's why.
I wish that, before you give us another display of your loss of temper, I
could get this through to you!

That does not mean it's a different variety nobody other than Burncoose and
one other has, nor does it mean that it's the one I'm seeking an ID for. It
might be, it might not. Time will tell. What it does mean is that
Burncoose calls it that. This happens elsewhere, too. It might be the true
and proper name or it might be something a Mr Jackman or Son of Mr Jackman
gave them or someone else, from a plant he discovered in e.g. Crete in 2004
or 1921. As I said earlier, if you bothered to read my posts properly, I
haven't seen this particular plant in Salcombe for about a year and when I
can I will photograph it and post a photo and a more particular description.

Perhaps you don't know how the Plant Finder and the contribution of entries
to it, works. The RHS does its absolutely scrupulous best to ensure things
are named correctly but it really is not possible for them - or nurseries -
to check each plant individually, especially if it has passed from hand to
hand over the years and its true name has been forgotten or it has been left
out of the Plant Finder for some reason and for some time. When
're-discovered', it might be given another name altogether. For example,
there are a lot of old apple trees unknown and unidentified, AIUI.

For example, the Lonicera I mentioned in an earlier post, was sent to Wisley
but the ID they sent back for it was absolutely nothing like the one we have
so we cannot in all conscience enter it into the Plant Finder under any name
other than our own; a friend gave Ray a Canna that he had brought back from
Lesotho but didn't know and Ray - in jest - called it Canna 'Lesotho Lil'.
One of our staff sold it to someone who turned out to be another nurseryman
who put it in the Plant Finder as C. 'Lesotho Lil' and he had every right to
do so. It's in there under that name attached to this nursery, too. If you
took it to the experts and spent quite a bit of money on researching it in
the field etc., it might turn out to be something quite different but that
just doesn't happen. People only spend a lot of money on the provenance of
plants for which they are seeking PBR. And frankly, most customers simply
don't care what a plant's provenance is, if they like the plant.

In the meantime, I suggest you check this tantrum before it goes any further
and you end up in even more kill files. All you're doing is reminding those
who haven't kill filed you why it is that others have.
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/
(remove weeds from address)