On Sat, 10 May 2008 17:07:25 +1000, "FarmI" ask@itshall be given
wrote:
"Someone else" wrote in message On
Thu, 8 May 2008 16:57:04 +1000, "FarmI" ask@itshall be given
wrote:
"Way Back Jack" wrote in message
TV documentaries and travelogues reveal a lot of lush "green" in those
countrysides but a relative scarcity of trees. Is it climate? Too
windy in Ireland? Sheep and/or other livestock?
(snip) Ireland suffered from
ice coverage during the Ice Ages so any trees there had to come back as
pioneer species.
Large numbers of people, 'modern farming' and trees don't go together. As
the population grew the trees would have had to go,
In Ireland a whole culture had grown up around living amongst the
trees and it was this culture that was effectively destroyed by the
deforestation of Ireland wrought by the forces loyal to the English
crown...in their desire to obtain materials to build a fleet large
enough to beat/repel a fleet whose creation had likewise deforested
Spain...which of course is a much larger country than
Britain...Spain's total land area = 504,030 km² whereas Britain's is
244,820 km²...and Ireland's (the entire island of Ireland) is 84414
km²
or in some instances,
'modern farming' methods were the cause of clearance too. Ireland's
population exploded after the introduction of the potato and you can't
grow spuds in forests so even if there had been a desire to grow more trees,
there would have been a strong disincentive to do so.
That is true.
Ireland had extensive forest cover well prior to the arrival of
potatoes in Europe...
Yes it did have more trees but even today Ireland has only 16.8% of land
that is arable. I don't know what the figure is for Ulster, but think it
would be higher.
There is a reason why Cromwell's men gave the inhabitants of Ulster
the choice "To hell or Connaught" that being that the land of Ulster
was preferable to the land of Connaught for farming...and underlies
the essentially economic reasons rather than theological ones for the
Irish conflict.
...so you're telling me that in the roughly 150 years between the arrival of the potato in
western Europe, including Ireland, from South America, and the Potato
Famine of the 1840s that Ireland's population grew so much that it had
also become deforested?
Do read for comprehension. You clearly did not understand what I wrote.
I've addressed this elsewhere in this post.
In addition, some of your facts are simply wrong. The potato was introduced
into Ireland by about 1600
Right...after the 1588 Battle with the Spanish Armada...
so by the time the first cases of potato blight
were seen in 1816, so 200 years had passed not 150. The famine of 1845-1851
was the worst but not the only famine.
Did I claim it was?
Nah.
Ireland population doubled at the end of the 18th century in about a 40-50
year period till it hit 8 million.
So you're telling me that the population of Ireland in 1750 was 4
million people despite the fact that there were no censuses of the
entire population of Ireland until 1821?
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/help/history.html
http://www.data-archive.ac.uk/findin...on.asp?sn=3542
That increase did not come from grain.
I think that you're going to have to revise what you've said above.
Ireland's population today is now just over 4 million.
No, Ireland's population is more like 6 million...remember to compare
apples with apples and include the population of what is now known as
'Northern Ireland' in your figures because the figures for the census
of 1821 included all 32 counties...
Why do you neglect to mention the impact on farm ownership patterns
incurred by the Penal Laws?
http://local.law.umn.edu/irishlaw/land.html
You're right I didn't mention them and that was quite deliberate.
Really you should have because the consequences of the laws pertaining
to inheritance and the selling of land have had long lasting
ramifications, consider:
"English Statute 1 Ann c. 26 (1702):
An Act for the Relief of the Protestant Purchasers of the forfeited
Estates in Ireland
Sec. 15. No papist, during the time of his professing the popish
religion, shall be capable to inherit, take or enjoy any other
forfeited estates or interest therein,"
and, in particular, this one:
7.04
2 Ann c.6 (1703):
An Act to prevent the further Growth of Popery
Sec. 10. All lands owned by a papist, and not sold during his lifetime
for valuable consideration, really and bona fide paid, shall descend
in gavelkind, that is to all of his sons, share and share alike, and
not to the eldest son only, and lacking sons, to all his daughters,
and lacking issue, to all kin of the papist's father in equal degree,
The consequence of this was that the lots that were actually owned by
Irish people who chose to remain 'Papists' was that their farms became
smaller and smaller because the farms owned by Irish Catholics *had*
to be split up evenly among *all* their children as opposed to the
eldest inheriting the farm with the younger ones either being married
off, sent into the Clergy or the Military as was traditional prior to
the imposition of the Penal Laws... until potatoes were the only crop
that could sustain the family that lived upon the land...maybe I do
have a chip on my shoulder, maybe I don't but the point remains.
Perhaps you could knock that chip off your shoulder and explain how to grow potatoes
in a forest to feed a rapidly growing population?
Admittedly difficult but given that the naval battle between the
English and the Spanish occurred in 1588 was before the potato was
introduced to Ireland, as you claim above, 1600 and the trees had
already been largely cut down to build the ships that fought the
Spanish Armada in the name of the Elizabeth I the point is beside the
point...the trees were already gone...
Or on the Burren or a bog or some of the other non arable land?
Have you yourself ever actually been to the Burren?
Also you neglect to mention that the English desire to build a fleet
of warships to fight the Spanish Armada and where they obtained the
timber to do so...
You may (or may not) know a lot about Botany but you don't know much
about the natural and human history of Ireland.
Perhaps I should say, don't seem to know much, in particular about the
impact of the penal laws and their long reaching historical
consequences...some of which are still in place right now...in the
form of inherited privilege...
And you appear to have reading difficulties
The lecturers at my University disagree with you.
so I will forgive your inability to draw a logical conclusion
Please indicate, using formal logic where it is that I make an invalid
inference.
based on your misunderstanding of what I wrote
or didn't write.
Of course a logically valid inference can be drawn from an incorrect
assumption/belief but it remains for you to demonstrate that I have
done this. I await with interest.
I know when my ancestors left Ireland, I also know why they left.
Ok, fair enough but does that have anything at all directly to do with
the deforestation of Ireland? Or the introduction and subsequent
dependence of the Irish Catholic population on the potato?
You know nothing about what I know about Ireland
Why then did you not refer to the impact of the Penal laws regards
inheritance?
nor it seems about the impact of the
potato on population growth of Ireland or indeed when the famines occurred
Claiming to know the extent of my knowledge is just silly...especially
considering that you've underestimated it. The infestations of the
fungus Phytophthora infestans occurred several times in the 1840's
with the consequences being particularly dire in 1848-49 given that
there had already been several years of crop failure...
or how long the Irish had been growing potatoes.
Do feel free to make up shit to suit your prejudices eh?
It was the Spanish Conquistadors in the 1530's in Peru that were the
first Europeans to encounter potatoes.
http://research.cip.cgiar.org/conflu...play/wpa/China
The potato (Solanum tuberosum L.) was introduced to Europe from its
geographic origin in the Andes of South America in the late sixteenth
century, probably in the 1570s (Hawkes 1992)
Hawkes, J. G. 1992. History of the Potato. In: P.M. Harris, Ed. The
Potato Crop: The Scientific Basis for Improvement. Second Edition.
Chapman and Hall. London. pp. 1-12.
Some claim that potatoes washed up in Ireland in 1588 as a consequence
of the Spanish Armada sinking off the west coast of Ireland...its
possible but not a certainty that the introduction was that
early...but...as I say above it is beside the point because the trees
that were cut down in Ireland were already cut down at that point.
Nik
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