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Lack Of Trees In Irish And British Countrysides
On Sat, 10 May 2008 17:07:25 +1000, "FarmI" ask@itshall be given
wrote: "Someone else" wrote in message On Thu, 8 May 2008 16:57:04 +1000, "FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote: "Way Back Jack" wrote in message TV documentaries and travelogues reveal a lot of lush "green" in those countrysides but a relative scarcity of trees. Is it climate? Too windy in Ireland? Sheep and/or other livestock? (snip) Ireland suffered from ice coverage during the Ice Ages so any trees there had to come back as pioneer species. Large numbers of people, 'modern farming' and trees don't go together. As the population grew the trees would have had to go, In Ireland a whole culture had grown up around living amongst the trees and it was this culture that was effectively destroyed by the deforestation of Ireland wrought by the forces loyal to the English crown...in their desire to obtain materials to build a fleet large enough to beat/repel a fleet whose creation had likewise deforested Spain...which of course is a much larger country than Britain...Spain's total land area = 504,030 km² whereas Britain's is 244,820 km²...and Ireland's (the entire island of Ireland) is 84414 km² or in some instances, 'modern farming' methods were the cause of clearance too. Ireland's population exploded after the introduction of the potato and you can't grow spuds in forests so even if there had been a desire to grow more trees, there would have been a strong disincentive to do so. That is true. Ireland had extensive forest cover well prior to the arrival of potatoes in Europe... Yes it did have more trees but even today Ireland has only 16.8% of land that is arable. I don't know what the figure is for Ulster, but think it would be higher. There is a reason why Cromwell's men gave the inhabitants of Ulster the choice "To hell or Connaught" that being that the land of Ulster was preferable to the land of Connaught for farming...and underlies the essentially economic reasons rather than theological ones for the Irish conflict. ...so you're telling me that in the roughly 150 years between the arrival of the potato in western Europe, including Ireland, from South America, and the Potato Famine of the 1840s that Ireland's population grew so much that it had also become deforested? Do read for comprehension. You clearly did not understand what I wrote. I've addressed this elsewhere in this post. In addition, some of your facts are simply wrong. The potato was introduced into Ireland by about 1600 Right...after the 1588 Battle with the Spanish Armada... so by the time the first cases of potato blight were seen in 1816, so 200 years had passed not 150. The famine of 1845-1851 was the worst but not the only famine. Did I claim it was? Nah. Ireland population doubled at the end of the 18th century in about a 40-50 year period till it hit 8 million. So you're telling me that the population of Ireland in 1750 was 4 million people despite the fact that there were no censuses of the entire population of Ireland until 1821? http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/help/history.html http://www.data-archive.ac.uk/findin...on.asp?sn=3542 That increase did not come from grain. I think that you're going to have to revise what you've said above. Ireland's population today is now just over 4 million. No, Ireland's population is more like 6 million...remember to compare apples with apples and include the population of what is now known as 'Northern Ireland' in your figures because the figures for the census of 1821 included all 32 counties... Why do you neglect to mention the impact on farm ownership patterns incurred by the Penal Laws? http://local.law.umn.edu/irishlaw/land.html You're right I didn't mention them and that was quite deliberate. Really you should have because the consequences of the laws pertaining to inheritance and the selling of land have had long lasting ramifications, consider: "English Statute 1 Ann c. 26 (1702): An Act for the Relief of the Protestant Purchasers of the forfeited Estates in Ireland Sec. 15. No papist, during the time of his professing the popish religion, shall be capable to inherit, take or enjoy any other forfeited estates or interest therein," and, in particular, this one: 7.04 2 Ann c.6 (1703): An Act to prevent the further Growth of Popery Sec. 10. All lands owned by a papist, and not sold during his lifetime for valuable consideration, really and bona fide paid, shall descend in gavelkind, that is to all of his sons, share and share alike, and not to the eldest son only, and lacking sons, to all his daughters, and lacking issue, to all kin of the papist's father in equal degree, The consequence of this was that the lots that were actually owned by Irish people who chose to remain 'Papists' was that their farms became smaller and smaller because the farms owned by Irish Catholics *had* to be split up evenly among *all* their children as opposed to the eldest inheriting the farm with the younger ones either being married off, sent into the Clergy or the Military as was traditional prior to the imposition of the Penal Laws... until potatoes were the only crop that could sustain the family that lived upon the land...maybe I do have a chip on my shoulder, maybe I don't but the point remains. Perhaps you could knock that chip off your shoulder and explain how to grow potatoes in a forest to feed a rapidly growing population? Admittedly difficult but given that the naval battle between the English and the Spanish occurred in 1588 was before the potato was introduced to Ireland, as you claim above, 1600 and the trees had already been largely cut down to build the ships that fought the Spanish Armada in the name of the Elizabeth I the point is beside the point...the trees were already gone... Or on the Burren or a bog or some of the other non arable land? Have you yourself ever actually been to the Burren? Also you neglect to mention that the English desire to build a fleet of warships to fight the Spanish Armada and where they obtained the timber to do so... You may (or may not) know a lot about Botany but you don't know much about the natural and human history of Ireland. Perhaps I should say, don't seem to know much, in particular about the impact of the penal laws and their long reaching historical consequences...some of which are still in place right now...in the form of inherited privilege... And you appear to have reading difficulties The lecturers at my University disagree with you. so I will forgive your inability to draw a logical conclusion Please indicate, using formal logic where it is that I make an invalid inference. based on your misunderstanding of what I wrote or didn't write. Of course a logically valid inference can be drawn from an incorrect assumption/belief but it remains for you to demonstrate that I have done this. I await with interest. I know when my ancestors left Ireland, I also know why they left. Ok, fair enough but does that have anything at all directly to do with the deforestation of Ireland? Or the introduction and subsequent dependence of the Irish Catholic population on the potato? You know nothing about what I know about Ireland Why then did you not refer to the impact of the Penal laws regards inheritance? nor it seems about the impact of the potato on population growth of Ireland or indeed when the famines occurred Claiming to know the extent of my knowledge is just silly...especially considering that you've underestimated it. The infestations of the fungus Phytophthora infestans occurred several times in the 1840's with the consequences being particularly dire in 1848-49 given that there had already been several years of crop failure... or how long the Irish had been growing potatoes. Do feel free to make up shit to suit your prejudices eh? It was the Spanish Conquistadors in the 1530's in Peru that were the first Europeans to encounter potatoes. http://research.cip.cgiar.org/conflu...play/wpa/China The potato (Solanum tuberosum L.) was introduced to Europe from its geographic origin in the Andes of South America in the late sixteenth century, probably in the 1570s (Hawkes 1992) Hawkes, J. G. 1992. History of the Potato. In: P.M. Harris, Ed. The Potato Crop: The Scientific Basis for Improvement. Second Edition. Chapman and Hall. London. pp. 1-12. Some claim that potatoes washed up in Ireland in 1588 as a consequence of the Spanish Armada sinking off the west coast of Ireland...its possible but not a certainty that the introduction was that early...but...as I say above it is beside the point because the trees that were cut down in Ireland were already cut down at that point. 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