Someone else wrote:
On Sat, 10 May 2008 12:17:17 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

Hal Ó Mearadhaigh. wrote:
Hal Ó Mearadhaigh. wrote:
Someone else wrote:
On Fri, 09 May 2008 22:35:45 +0000 (GMT), jl
wrote:
In article ,
Hal Ó Mearadhaigh. wrote:
Someone else wrote:
On Thu, 8 May 2008 16:57:04 +1000, "FarmI" ask@itshall be
given
wrote:

For those who think that Ireland never had significant forest
cover
please see:

www.lhi.org.uk/docs/History_Project_1.pdf

"The first wave of colonisation was by birch, aspen and sallow.
About 8 500 BC. pine and hazel spread northwards, replacing the
birch, which became uncommon. The pine colonisation was followed
by
a wave of oak and alder. Lime and elm followed this, then holly,
ash, beech, hornbeam and maple."

Ireland's population grew to around 8 million. But that had
little
to do with the state of the forests. Disease and over
harvesting
of trees were the main causes of the deforestation.

Who was it that was responsible for that overharvesting?

NOT the British, who always had plenty of forests of their own,
but
also imported any woods for ship building mostly from
Scandinavia.


As Ireland had no coal, the needs of 8 million people for
charcoal
and cooking woulkd certainly damage the forests. Peat was
available
of course - but only after the forests had made room for it.

No, it was always available...

Peat bogs? of course. But they were also forested.


If local attitudes to trees were the same then as now, it is
surprising that any trees survived at all.

"That tree will knock that wall down - cut it down".

I've heard that sentence so often, it makes me sick.


Manufacturing, farming, and the
monies being made out of harvesting the peat bogs were main
causes. (Alas Bord Na Mona, so much for greed). Blaming the
British, (English) is merely being paranoid and specious.

Not if it actually was the British that cut down the Irish
forests
to build the fleet that fought the Spanish Armada.

Nonsense! : See
http://fubini.swarthmore.edu/~ENVS2/...restation.html

Which, among other things, says "The deforestation effects of
increased shipbuilding was most visible in the change of Great
Britain’s landscape during the fifteenth to eighteenth centuries.
Those who traveled across Ireland at this time reported that one
could ride all day and not see a single tree, an image that
contrasts sharply with
the carpet of trees that covered the area only centuries before
(Brown, Terry)."

So I guess your own source is spouting "nonsense".

Reread what you've just posted.

What do you think I'm going to find there?

http://www.russellmcmurtrey.com/

"Ireland used to be covered with a lot of oak forest until the
peak
British armada years where much of it was cut down for making
ships."

and, interestingly,

http://www.millersville.edu/~columbus/papers/nucci.html

"The Queen gave Ralegh a massive estate in Ireland. He later
plundered this Irish land for its forests in order to finance
one
of
his expeditions."

So? If the estates were his, then he had every right to do as he
pleased.

Only in the sense of a 'Conqueror's right'...of course stolen
property
remains stolen property even if it was taken as the spoils of war
and
in no way guarantees that that property will remain in their
control....

Estates were given to him by the Queen. I'm sorry, but Raleigh didn't
"conquer" them. If you have a problem it's with the Queen, not with
Raleigh.

In any case, how many ships?

No idea.

Possibly two at most?

How can you make that claim? What evidence do you have?

Not a lot of Oak involved in that.Why do you isist on being such
a
begrudger against the English?

I begrudge them their invasion and occupation of Ireland. It has
stunted Ireland's development as a sovereign nation for
centuries...happily this is finally coming to an end...

You're the one turning "British" into "English".

People quibble about that...it is true though that at 1588 it was
only
England and not Britain that was doing the fighting.

What does 1588 have to do with anything?

After all, without England, Ireland would not
have progressed past the Iron age.

Ireland has

Technology, smelting iron, using wood for that?

Of course...Celts were the first western Europeans to have damascene
steel...

The largest industry in Wicklow for many a long year
was Forestry. Nothing to do with the English.

I'm not disagreeing but I'm interested in your justification for
that
claim.

So what did they do with the wood?

"He exploited the natural resources of Irish forestry to fund
his
expedition and targeted religious dissidents for settlement in
English outposts."

Your source?

http://www.millersville.edu/~columbus/papers/nucci.html

Bibliography

1. Lacey, Robert, Sir Walter Ralegh, Atheneum, New York, 1974
2. Pollard, A.F., The Political History of England, Greenwood Press
Publishers, New York,1969
3. Rodriguez-Salgado, M.J., England, Spain and The Gran Armada,
Barnes
and Nobel Books,Savage Maryland, 1990
4. http://www.devon-cc.gov.uk/tourism/p...y/raleigh.html
Sir Walter Raleigh, of Hayes Barton
5. Sale, Kirkpatrick, The Conquest of Paradise, First Plume
Printing,
New York, 1990


Britain had more than enough
forests of her own to build all the ships she wished!!

Maybe so / maybe not but the ruling class of Britain still cut
down the trees of Ireland.

Bullshit. Over simplification and merely your own unsupported
opinion. See:
http://fubini.swarthmore.edu/~ENVS2/...restation.html

Which supports his view, not yours.

Right.

As far as I'm aware Britain got most of it's marine supplies
from
the Baltic countries

What? There were substantial Oak forests in Latvia?

For the ships that fought the Spanish Armada?

Wouldn't it have been easier and cheaper to have felled the
trees
in nearby Ireland?

- that trade certainly is mentioned quite frequently in
various history books.

Which ones precisely?

Maybe you should use Google Nik, everyone else seems to!

ROTFL

You really should read your own sources in their entirety before
using them to refute the statements of others.

Like I've said, on a number of occasions, Merrick is an idiot who
has
no compunction when it comes to ignoring basic logical truths, sad
but
true.

Nik

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