Xref: news7 rec.gardens.roses:91014

On Tue, 8 Apr 2003, "Shiva" wrote:
Mike wrote:

I've got good news and bad news. The good news is that you're not going
to hurt the fauna you're fond of. That's because of the bad news:
there's no IPM for stem sawflies, i.e. no way to treat stem sawflies
other than pruning, *unless* you're comfortable using a systemic
insecticide. There are reasons not to do that, mostly having to do with
spider mites. Rose stem sawflies get some buds every year, but not many
of them. Spider mites are considered the much greater risk to roses,
and the use of systemic insecticides is thought to suppress spider mite
predators. I'm guessing that's because most systemic insecticides have
both systemic and contact action, but I don't know for sure as I never
use them.

I had sawflies before I began using Orthenx, and do not have it now.
Moreover, I do not and have NEVER had spider mites. Go to the Ortho.com
page and read about Orthenex. It does not have a contact insecticide. It
works systemically. There is now a miticide added to it, as well. The
latter addition is a fairly recent development. There is no reason to
allow sawflie damage in your garden, Mike. I have been using this stuff
for three or four years--and contrary to the Chicken Little people, I have
earthworms, lady bugs, bees, etc. I do not have spider mites, and in fact
have no insect damage at all save thrips. Surely there are others who have
the same experience.

Weeeell, that is good news/bad news. I'll do a little research and see if
they have natural enemies or if you can see the eggs and pick them off,
etc. I wonder why I've never seen the damage before? Maybe they get so
few
buds I just never noticed. Hopefully. g It sounds like using an
isecticide is a cure worse than the disease, though.

NOT. Do your research.

Hi Shiva,

I went to Ortho's website and checked out their PDF label for Orthenex.
When I read all the warnings regarding humans, pets, bees and birds
exposure to their product, I called Ortho. It absolutely does function as a
contact insecticide, read the label. It states "..quickly kills sprayed
insects and mites and continues controlling insects which feed on treated
plants." It is extremely toxic to amphibians (my toads, geckoes and
anoles.) The residue on the leaves is toxic and will kill bees, ladybugs,
praying mantis and any other insect on contact. It states not to use this
product if bees are visiting the area. It is toxic to birds. Birds don't
eat roses. It is contact with the residue that remains on the leaves that
kills them. I've never had a bird that sat in the bush while I was
spraying, lifting each wing for me so I can get it all over. It states if
you get this on your skin, seek medical attention. This is straight from
the people who want me to buy the product, so I gotta believe it. I had
three buds so far with sawfly damage, all on seperate plants. It's not
panic time, yet. I'm no chemophobe - I spray for fungal diseases. If pests
become a nightmare, I will find a product and use it.

By the way, when I called them - I had to probe to get Ortho to admit this.
They started out by saying "it's systemic, it doesn't kill on contact."
When I started pointing out what was on their own label and asking how in
the world it could be toxic to things that don't eat plants, I got put on
hold and eventually someone came back on the line and confirmed that it
does kill on contact as well. The first lady I spoke with was simply
reading the label off the website as I was. She complained about how slowly
Acrobat scrolled. She initially stopped as soon as she saw the word
"systemic" and concluded that it did not kill on contact until I encouraged
her to read farther. These are not experts manning their phone banks. Dig
deeper. I'm glad to hear that you have had good results with Orthenex and
don't seem to notice a population problem with your beneficials. I'm
worried about the amphibians, birds and bees, though. They particularly
stressed how toxic it is to amphibians. I'm just trying to be safe and not
sorry. Like I said, it's not panic time yet.

Thanks,

Mike
z8TX