Hang on folks, I think this is the last of these posts. If you want to
avoid the re-hash, just scroll to the bottom.

On Apr 3, 5:59*am, "brooklyn1" wrote:
"Freckles" wrote:
I have three oak trees and I cannot get grass to grow under them. I know
St
Augustine will grow in the shade, but can anyone recommend a grass that
will
grow from seeds in a shaded area?

You have more than a shade issue. *Oak trees turn the soil beneath extremely
acetic, making it very difficult if not impossible to grow lawn grass
successfully. *Sometimes liming with shallow tilling can help but usually
not, and can more likely damage your trees. *I don't know where you're
located so I can't give you detailed recommendations, perhaps you can get
more help by accessing:http://www.scotts.com/smg/

On Sat, 4 Apr 2009 08:51:11 -0700 (PDT)
Gardengal wrote:
I agree it's more than just a shade issue, but it's got nothing to do
with soil acidity. PLANTS DO NOT MAKE SOIL ACIDIC (capitals for
emphasis)- acid soils occur as a result of the mineral content
and amount of rainfall.
-----

Then I made reference to "Dr. Elaine Ingham at Oregon
State University along with others". This reference came from

Teaming with Microbes: A Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web
Jeff Lowenfels and Wayne Lewis
http://www.amazon.com/Teaming-Microb.../dp/0881927775
/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206815176&sr= 1-1

On Apr 4, 10:22*am, Billy wildbilly@without a.net wrote:

Ingham and some of her graduate students at OSU also noticed a correla-
tion between plants and their preference for soils that were fungally
dominated versus those that were bacterially dominated or neutral. Since
the path from bacterial to fungal domination in soils follows the
general course of plant succession, it became easy to predict what type
of soil particular plants preferred by noting where they came from. In
general, perennials, trees, and shrubs prefer fungally dominated soils,
while annuals, grasses, and vegetables prefer soils dominated by
bacteria.

One implication of these findings, for the gardener, has to do with the
nitrogen in bacteria and fungi. Remember, this is what the soil food web
means to a plant: when these organisms are eaten, some of the nitrogen
is retained by the eater, but much of it is released as waste in the
form of plant-available ammonium (NH^). Depending on the soil
environment, this can either remain as ammonium or be converted into
nitrate (NO,) by special bacteria. When does this conversion occur? When
ammonium is released in soils that are dominated by bacteria. This is
because such soils generally have an alkaline pH (thanks to bacterial
bioslime), which encourages the nitrogen-fixing bacteria to thrive. The
acids produced by fungi, as they begin to dominate, lower the pH and
greatly reduce the amount of these bacteria. In fungally dominated soils,
much of the nitrogen remains in ammonium form. Ah, here is the rub:
chemical fertilizers provide plants with nitrogen, but most do so in the
form of nitrates (NO,,). An understanding of the soil food web makes it
clear, however, that plants that prefer fungally dominated soils
ultimately won't flourish on a diet of nitrates. Knowing this can make a
great deal of difference in the way you manage your gardens and yard. If
you can cause either fungi or bacteria to dominate, or provide an equal
mix (and you can Ð just how is explained in Part 2) , then plants can
get the kind of nitrogen they prefer, without chemicals, and thrive.

p 25 -26

Teaming with Microbes: A Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web
by Jeff Lowenfels, Wayne Lewis

* *¤ *Publisher: Timber Press, Incorporated (July 15, 2006)
* *¤ *ISBN-10: 0881927775
* *¤ *ISBN-13: 978-0881927771

Finally

Gardengal Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 12:04:33 -0700 (PDT)

OTHER NATURAL PROCESSES THAT INCREASE SOIL ACIDITY INCLUDE ROOT GROWTH
AND DECAY OF ORGANIC MATTER BY SOIL MICROORGANISMS.(Capitals for
emphasis) Whereas the decay of organic matter gradually will
increase acidity, adding sources of organic matter with high pH
values (such as some manures and composts) can raise soil pH.

----
so at Sat, 4 Apr 2009 08:51:11 -0700 (PDT)
Gardengal said: PLANTS DO NOT MAKE SOIL ACIDIC

to

Sat, 4 Apr 2009 12:04:33 -0700 (PDT)
OTHER NATURAL PROCESSES THAT INCREASE SOIL ACIDITY INCLUDE ROOT GROWTH
AND DECAY OF ORGANIC MATTER BY SOIL MICROORGANISMS.

Q.E.D.
------

P.S. Actually, as Jeff Lowenfels pointed out, it's not the pH of the
soil that counts, it's the pH of the soil around the roots that count.
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html