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Grass in shade
Hang on folks, I think this is the last of these posts. If you want to
avoid the re-hash, just scroll to the bottom. On Apr 3, 5:59*am, "brooklyn1" wrote: "Freckles" wrote: I have three oak trees and I cannot get grass to grow under them. I know St Augustine will grow in the shade, but can anyone recommend a grass that will grow from seeds in a shaded area? You have more than a shade issue. *Oak trees turn the soil beneath extremely acetic, making it very difficult if not impossible to grow lawn grass successfully. *Sometimes liming with shallow tilling can help but usually not, and can more likely damage your trees. *I don't know where you're located so I can't give you detailed recommendations, perhaps you can get more help by accessing:http://www.scotts.com/smg/ On Sat, 4 Apr 2009 08:51:11 -0700 (PDT) Gardengal wrote: I agree it's more than just a shade issue, but it's got nothing to do with soil acidity. PLANTS DO NOT MAKE SOIL ACIDIC (capitals for emphasis)- acid soils occur as a result of the mineral content and amount of rainfall. ----- Then I made reference to "Dr. Elaine Ingham at Oregon State University along with others". This reference came from Teaming with Microbes: A Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web Jeff Lowenfels and Wayne Lewis http://www.amazon.com/Teaming-Microb.../dp/0881927775 /ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206815176&sr= 1-1 On Apr 4, 10:22*am, Billy wildbilly@without a.net wrote: Ingham and some of her graduate students at OSU also noticed a correla- tion between plants and their preference for soils that were fungally dominated versus those that were bacterially dominated or neutral. Since the path from bacterial to fungal domination in soils follows the general course of plant succession, it became easy to predict what type of soil particular plants preferred by noting where they came from. In general, perennials, trees, and shrubs prefer fungally dominated soils, while annuals, grasses, and vegetables prefer soils dominated by bacteria. One implication of these findings, for the gardener, has to do with the nitrogen in bacteria and fungi. Remember, this is what the soil food web means to a plant: when these organisms are eaten, some of the nitrogen is retained by the eater, but much of it is released as waste in the form of plant-available ammonium (NH^). Depending on the soil environment, this can either remain as ammonium or be converted into nitrate (NO,) by special bacteria. When does this conversion occur? When ammonium is released in soils that are dominated by bacteria. This is because such soils generally have an alkaline pH (thanks to bacterial bioslime), which encourages the nitrogen-fixing bacteria to thrive. The acids produced by fungi, as they begin to dominate, lower the pH and greatly reduce the amount of these bacteria. In fungally dominated soils, much of the nitrogen remains in ammonium form. Ah, here is the rub: chemical fertilizers provide plants with nitrogen, but most do so in the form of nitrates (NO,,). An understanding of the soil food web makes it clear, however, that plants that prefer fungally dominated soils ultimately won't flourish on a diet of nitrates. Knowing this can make a great deal of difference in the way you manage your gardens and yard. If you can cause either fungi or bacteria to dominate, or provide an equal mix (and you can Ð just how is explained in Part 2) , then plants can get the kind of nitrogen they prefer, without chemicals, and thrive. p 25 -26 Teaming with Microbes: A Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web by Jeff Lowenfels, Wayne Lewis * *¤ *Publisher: Timber Press, Incorporated (July 15, 2006) * *¤ *ISBN-10: 0881927775 * *¤ *ISBN-13: 978-0881927771 Finally Gardengal Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 12:04:33 -0700 (PDT) OTHER NATURAL PROCESSES THAT INCREASE SOIL ACIDITY INCLUDE ROOT GROWTH AND DECAY OF ORGANIC MATTER BY SOIL MICROORGANISMS.(Capitals for emphasis) Whereas the decay of organic matter gradually will increase acidity, adding sources of organic matter with high pH values (such as some manures and composts) can raise soil pH. ---- so at Sat, 4 Apr 2009 08:51:11 -0700 (PDT) Gardengal said: PLANTS DO NOT MAKE SOIL ACIDIC to Sat, 4 Apr 2009 12:04:33 -0700 (PDT) OTHER NATURAL PROCESSES THAT INCREASE SOIL ACIDITY INCLUDE ROOT GROWTH AND DECAY OF ORGANIC MATTER BY SOIL MICROORGANISMS. Q.E.D. ------ P.S. Actually, as Jeff Lowenfels pointed out, it's not the pH of the soil that counts, it's the pH of the soil around the roots that count. -- - Billy "For the first time in the history of the world, every human being is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html |
#2
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Grass in shade
"Billy" wrote in message ... Hang on folks, I think this is the last of these posts. If you want to avoid the re-hash, just scroll to the bottom. On Apr 3, 5:59 am, "brooklyn1" wrote: "Freckles" wrote: I have three oak trees and I cannot get grass to grow under them. I know St Augustine will grow in the shade, but can anyone recommend a grass that will grow from seeds in a shaded area? You have more than a shade issue. Oak trees turn the soil beneath extremely acetic, making it very difficult if not impossible to grow lawn grass successfully. Sometimes liming with shallow tilling can help but usually not, and can more likely damage your trees. I don't know where you're located so I can't give you detailed recommendations, perhaps you can get more help by accessing:http://www.scotts.com/smg/ On Sat, 4 Apr 2009 08:51:11 -0700 (PDT) Gardengal wrote: I agree it's more than just a shade issue, but it's got nothing to do with soil acidity. PLANTS DO NOT MAKE SOIL ACIDIC (capitals for emphasis)- acid soils occur as a result of the mineral content and amount of rainfall. ----- Then I made reference to "Dr. Elaine Ingham at Oregon State University along with others". This reference came from Teaming with Microbes: A Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web Jeff Lowenfels and Wayne Lewis http://www.amazon.com/Teaming-Microb.../dp/0881927775 /ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206815176&sr= 1-1 On Apr 4, 10:22 am, Billy wildbilly@without a.net wrote: Ingham and some of her graduate students at OSU also noticed a correla- tion between plants and their preference for soils that were fungally dominated versus those that were bacterially dominated or neutral. Since the path from bacterial to fungal domination in soils follows the general course of plant succession, it became easy to predict what type of soil particular plants preferred by noting where they came from. In general, perennials, trees, and shrubs prefer fungally dominated soils, while annuals, grasses, and vegetables prefer soils dominated by bacteria. One implication of these findings, for the gardener, has to do with the nitrogen in bacteria and fungi. Remember, this is what the soil food web means to a plant: when these organisms are eaten, some of the nitrogen is retained by the eater, but much of it is released as waste in the form of plant-available ammonium (NH^). Depending on the soil environment, this can either remain as ammonium or be converted into nitrate (NO,) by special bacteria. When does this conversion occur? When ammonium is released in soils that are dominated by bacteria. This is because such soils generally have an alkaline pH (thanks to bacterial bioslime), which encourages the nitrogen-fixing bacteria to thrive. The acids produced by fungi, as they begin to dominate, lower the pH and greatly reduce the amount of these bacteria. In fungally dominated soils, much of the nitrogen remains in ammonium form. Ah, here is the rub: chemical fertilizers provide plants with nitrogen, but most do so in the form of nitrates (NO,,). An understanding of the soil food web makes it clear, however, that plants that prefer fungally dominated soils ultimately won't flourish on a diet of nitrates. Knowing this can make a great deal of difference in the way you manage your gardens and yard. If you can cause either fungi or bacteria to dominate, or provide an equal mix (and you can Ð just how is explained in Part 2) , then plants can get the kind of nitrogen they prefer, without chemicals, and thrive. p 25 -26 Teaming with Microbes: A Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web by Jeff Lowenfels, Wayne Lewis ¤ Publisher: Timber Press, Incorporated (July 15, 2006) ¤ ISBN-10: 0881927775 ¤ ISBN-13: 978-0881927771 Finally Gardengal Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 12:04:33 -0700 (PDT) OTHER NATURAL PROCESSES THAT INCREASE SOIL ACIDITY INCLUDE ROOT GROWTH AND DECAY OF ORGANIC MATTER BY SOIL MICROORGANISMS.(Capitals for emphasis) Whereas the decay of organic matter gradually will increase acidity, adding sources of organic matter with high pH values (such as some manures and composts) can raise soil pH. ---- so at Sat, 4 Apr 2009 08:51:11 -0700 (PDT) Gardengal said: PLANTS DO NOT MAKE SOIL ACIDIC to Sat, 4 Apr 2009 12:04:33 -0700 (PDT) OTHER NATURAL PROCESSES THAT INCREASE SOIL ACIDITY INCLUDE ROOT GROWTH AND DECAY OF ORGANIC MATTER BY SOIL MICROORGANISMS. Q.E.D. ------ P.S. Actually, as Jeff Lowenfels pointed out, it's not the pH of the soil that counts, it's the pH of the soil around the roots that count. Good job, Billy. That's called hung by their own petards. Confucius say they who profess expertise at Column A eat crow for dessert.. LOL |
#3
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Grass in shade
In article ,
"brooklyn1" wrote: "Billy" wrote in message ... Hang on folks, I think this is the last of these posts. If you want to avoid the re-hash, just scroll to the bottom. On Apr 3, 5:59 am, "brooklyn1" wrote: "Freckles" wrote: I have three oak trees and I cannot get grass to grow under them. I know St Augustine will grow in the shade, but can anyone recommend a grass that will grow from seeds in a shaded area? You have more than a shade issue. Oak trees turn the soil beneath extremely acetic, making it very difficult if not impossible to grow lawn grass successfully. Sometimes liming with shallow tilling can help but usually not, and can more likely damage your trees. I don't know where you're located so I can't give you detailed recommendations, perhaps you can get more help by accessing:http://www.scotts.com/smg/ On Sat, 4 Apr 2009 08:51:11 -0700 (PDT) Gardengal wrote: I agree it's more than just a shade issue, but it's got nothing to do with soil acidity. PLANTS DO NOT MAKE SOIL ACIDIC (capitals for emphasis)- acid soils occur as a result of the mineral content and amount of rainfall. ----- Then I made reference to "Dr. Elaine Ingham at Oregon State University along with others". This reference came from Teaming with Microbes: A Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web Jeff Lowenfels and Wayne Lewis http://www.amazon.com/Teaming-Microb.../dp/0881927775 /ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206815176&sr= 1-1 On Apr 4, 10:22 am, Billy wildbilly@without a.net wrote: Ingham and some of her graduate students at OSU also noticed a correla- tion between plants and their preference for soils that were fungally dominated versus those that were bacterially dominated or neutral. Since the path from bacterial to fungal domination in soils follows the general course of plant succession, it became easy to predict what type of soil particular plants preferred by noting where they came from. In general, perennials, trees, and shrubs prefer fungally dominated soils, while annuals, grasses, and vegetables prefer soils dominated by bacteria. One implication of these findings, for the gardener, has to do with the nitrogen in bacteria and fungi. Remember, this is what the soil food web means to a plant: when these organisms are eaten, some of the nitrogen is retained by the eater, but much of it is released as waste in the form of plant-available ammonium (NH^). Depending on the soil environment, this can either remain as ammonium or be converted into nitrate (NO,) by special bacteria. When does this conversion occur? When ammonium is released in soils that are dominated by bacteria. This is because such soils generally have an alkaline pH (thanks to bacterial bioslime), which encourages the nitrogen-fixing bacteria to thrive. The acids produced by fungi, as they begin to dominate, lower the pH and greatly reduce the amount of these bacteria. In fungally dominated soils, much of the nitrogen remains in ammonium form. Ah, here is the rub: chemical fertilizers provide plants with nitrogen, but most do so in the form of nitrates (NO,,). An understanding of the soil food web makes it clear, however, that plants that prefer fungally dominated soils ultimately won't flourish on a diet of nitrates. Knowing this can make a great deal of difference in the way you manage your gardens and yard. If you can cause either fungi or bacteria to dominate, or provide an equal mix (and you can Ð just how is explained in Part 2) , then plants can get the kind of nitrogen they prefer, without chemicals, and thrive. p 25 -26 Teaming with Microbes: A Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web by Jeff Lowenfels, Wayne Lewis ¤ Publisher: Timber Press, Incorporated (July 15, 2006) ¤ ISBN-10: 0881927775 ¤ ISBN-13: 978-0881927771 Finally Gardengal Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 12:04:33 -0700 (PDT) OTHER NATURAL PROCESSES THAT INCREASE SOIL ACIDITY INCLUDE ROOT GROWTH AND DECAY OF ORGANIC MATTER BY SOIL MICROORGANISMS.(Capitals for emphasis) Whereas the decay of organic matter gradually will increase acidity, adding sources of organic matter with high pH values (such as some manures and composts) can raise soil pH. ---- so at Sat, 4 Apr 2009 08:51:11 -0700 (PDT) Gardengal said: PLANTS DO NOT MAKE SOIL ACIDIC to Sat, 4 Apr 2009 12:04:33 -0700 (PDT) OTHER NATURAL PROCESSES THAT INCREASE SOIL ACIDITY INCLUDE ROOT GROWTH AND DECAY OF ORGANIC MATTER BY SOIL MICROORGANISMS. Q.E.D. ------ P.S. Actually, as Jeff Lowenfels pointed out, it's not the pH of the soil that counts, it's the pH of the soil around the roots that count. Good job, Billy. That's called hung by their own petards. Confucius say they who profess expertise at Column A eat crow for dessert.. LOL Kudo's from brooklyn1 must mean Dr Jekyll is in control at this time. How long will he prevail ? Mr Hyde must be chaffing at the bit I kid you not. Confucius say they who profess expertise at Column A eat crow for dessert.. LOL Oh the joy in humiliation. NOT. Bill who does not throw stones as I have windows. An argument can be resolved then the context can be made of no import by events. For some reason I would not have brooklyn1 at my table. Scary I wrote before. Essentially he is a creep. -- Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA Not all who wander are lost. - J.R.R. Tolkien (1892-1973) |
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