On Wed, 25 May 2011 16:35:16 -0700, Billy
wrote:

In article ,
David Hare-Scott wrote:

On Wed, 25 May 2011 08:32:58 -0700, Billy
wrote:

In article ,
David Hare-Scott wrote:

On Tue, 24 May 2011 22:26:20 -0400, "DogDiesel"
wrote:

I've got burn questions about fertilizers.

I've got a lot of old liquid fish mixes and micro nutrients , From my
hydroponics . I used them last year in my outdoor soil garden . The
bottles
of fish mix say they wont burn. One is 5-1-1 and the Alaska starter
fish
mix is 2-1-1 . I know they are only 100 % ground fish mixed with water ,
It
looks like syrup and stinks. Last year my garden did very good on it. I
put
about a half a shot glass with about 2 gallons of water and hand water
the
plants. Maybe three times for the summer. My soil was N deficient.

Just so you know .It wont burn. No matter what. Or how much.

What's the reason some fertilizers wont burn,. Is it just because its
dead
fish. Or natural or something. And if it wont burn, Why isn't non burning
fertilizers available in the big stores.

What else could be used as non burning fertilizers?

Thanks

Diesel.


Fertiliser burn is caused by high concentrations of soluble salts,
typically this is nitrogen salts because they are found in most
fertilisers and they are very soluble but you could get the same from
say potassium salts.

The dehydrating effects of salts (chemical fertilizers) are well known
and not restricted to fertilizer salts. It is also for this reason best
to avoid chemferts, because salts have a deleterious effect on soil
organisms and ecology. Regardless of what Wikipedia says, fertilizer
burn with organic fertilizers comes from the pH raising effects of
ammonia,

How do you know this?

You can smell the ammonia. Ammonia will only do one thing to an aqueous
solution, and that is to turn it basic.

True but you are yet to establish that is going to be a problem.


Plants cannot excrete ammonia and levels exceeding those that can be
incorporated are toxic.
http://www.inchem.org/documents/hsg/hsg/hsg037.htm

That does not say that ammonia is toxic to plants, it's a human hazard
assessment.


Ammonia Toxicity -- Although ammonia is a source of plant nitrogen, high
concentrations are phytotoxic.
http://whatcom.wsu.edu/ag/compost/Compost_Damage.htm



That does say that excess ammonia is toxic to plants. It may be so
but I would like to see some more authoritative comment on the
subject.



You are proposing that although the salt in alfalfa is insufficient to
kill the alfalfa, there is sufficient salt in the alfalfa to kill other
plants?

No I am not saying that and I don't know why your alfalfa causes
burning.

In my clay soil, if alfalfa was high in salt there should have
been reduced yields from my garden, since our garden is always dressed
with alfalfa.
http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/livestk/01615.html

I don't see the problem.

I realize that some alfalfa is sold with salt supplements, but that
isn't what I buy.


which is released as the proteins in the organic material
breaks down. (I was able to quite handily fry some potted plants with
alfalfa [lucerne] meal quiet easily, no salts necessary.)


How do you know there are no salts in lucerne meal? Did you actually
measure the pH?

No salt? I doubt there is any plant with "no salt".

Before you were saying it is the rise in pH that is the problem that's
why I asked what the pH was. I didn't say there was no salt. Silly
Billy.

Why are you interchanging "salts" with "salt". Salt is somewhat
ambiguous depending on the context, I was using it in the technical
sense of the combination of an acid and a base, not on the common
usage of sodium chloride (a specific salt).


Why is this pH effect not seen when liming?
No idea.

Well your theory that plant burning is caused by ammonium hydroxide
raising pH would need to account for other substances that raise pH
but don't burn.

Liming? Is that hanging out with Brits?


Ho ho ho.



Chicken and rabbit manure can be toxic to plants, as can alfalfa meal,
or fish emulsion, if not added according to directions. Concentration is
everything.

Agreed.

Are you suggesting that there is too much salt in chook poo, and that is
why it can burn plants?

Too many salts not sodium chloride. Ammonium hydroxide which is what
you would have in chook poo is a salt. Don't you say that you are a
chemist or are you just bored and trying to spin this out with some
added confusion?



Manure Chicken Diary cow Horse Steer Rabbit
N 1.1 .257 .70 .70 2.4
P .80 .15 .30 .30 1.4
K .50 .25 .60 .40 .60


Manure Sheep Alfalfa Fish Emulsion
N .70 3 5
P .30 1 1
K .90 2 1


The burning is not specifically related to natural versus synthetic,
you can burn plants easily with manure straight from the chicken which
is about as natural as you can get. The reason that it is common with
synthetic, store bought, fertilisers is that they are highly
concentrated having little or no fibre or water (unlike natural
fertilisers) and they are mostly or entirely soluble, so it is very
easy to over dose.

If you want a no-burn fertiliser get a horse.
I suspect that, while fresh, horse manure may produce ammonia toxicity,
if spread too thickly.

Your suspicion is not supported by observation in the field nor animal
metabolism. The reason that most mammals don't have any significant
amount of ammonia in their feces is that nitrogen compounds are
removed from the blood by the kidneys to urine as urea, uric acid etc.
OTOH birds don't urinate and their excess nitrogen is dumped into the
cloaca along with their bowel contents, a good proportion as ammonia.
This is why bird manure is 'hotter' than from mammals such as horses
and cows.

Rabbits are coprophagic which apparently alters their nitrogen
metabolism and somehow that increases the nitrogen in their feces. As
I don't have access to such for my garden (I try to exclude the little
dears) I am not inclined to delve into rabbit poop any further.

David