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Question about fertilizers.
On Wed, 25 May 2011 16:35:16 -0700, Billy
wrote: In article , David Hare-Scott wrote: On Wed, 25 May 2011 08:32:58 -0700, Billy wrote: In article , David Hare-Scott wrote: On Tue, 24 May 2011 22:26:20 -0400, "DogDiesel" wrote: I've got burn questions about fertilizers. I've got a lot of old liquid fish mixes and micro nutrients , From my hydroponics . I used them last year in my outdoor soil garden . The bottles of fish mix say they wont burn. One is 5-1-1 and the Alaska starter fish mix is 2-1-1 . I know they are only 100 % ground fish mixed with water , It looks like syrup and stinks. Last year my garden did very good on it. I put about a half a shot glass with about 2 gallons of water and hand water the plants. Maybe three times for the summer. My soil was N deficient. Just so you know .It wont burn. No matter what. Or how much. What's the reason some fertilizers wont burn,. Is it just because its dead fish. Or natural or something. And if it wont burn, Why isn't non burning fertilizers available in the big stores. What else could be used as non burning fertilizers? Thanks Diesel. Fertiliser burn is caused by high concentrations of soluble salts, typically this is nitrogen salts because they are found in most fertilisers and they are very soluble but you could get the same from say potassium salts. The dehydrating effects of salts (chemical fertilizers) are well known and not restricted to fertilizer salts. It is also for this reason best to avoid chemferts, because salts have a deleterious effect on soil organisms and ecology. Regardless of what Wikipedia says, fertilizer burn with organic fertilizers comes from the pH raising effects of ammonia, How do you know this? You can smell the ammonia. Ammonia will only do one thing to an aqueous solution, and that is to turn it basic. True but you are yet to establish that is going to be a problem. Plants cannot excrete ammonia and levels exceeding those that can be incorporated are toxic. http://www.inchem.org/documents/hsg/hsg/hsg037.htm That does not say that ammonia is toxic to plants, it's a human hazard assessment. Ammonia Toxicity -- Although ammonia is a source of plant nitrogen, high concentrations are phytotoxic. http://whatcom.wsu.edu/ag/compost/Compost_Damage.htm That does say that excess ammonia is toxic to plants. It may be so but I would like to see some more authoritative comment on the subject. You are proposing that although the salt in alfalfa is insufficient to kill the alfalfa, there is sufficient salt in the alfalfa to kill other plants? No I am not saying that and I don't know why your alfalfa causes burning. In my clay soil, if alfalfa was high in salt there should have been reduced yields from my garden, since our garden is always dressed with alfalfa. http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/livestk/01615.html I don't see the problem. I realize that some alfalfa is sold with salt supplements, but that isn't what I buy. which is released as the proteins in the organic material breaks down. (I was able to quite handily fry some potted plants with alfalfa [lucerne] meal quiet easily, no salts necessary.) How do you know there are no salts in lucerne meal? Did you actually measure the pH? No salt? I doubt there is any plant with "no salt". Before you were saying it is the rise in pH that is the problem that's why I asked what the pH was. I didn't say there was no salt. Silly Billy. Why are you interchanging "salts" with "salt". Salt is somewhat ambiguous depending on the context, I was using it in the technical sense of the combination of an acid and a base, not on the common usage of sodium chloride (a specific salt). Why is this pH effect not seen when liming? No idea. Well your theory that plant burning is caused by ammonium hydroxide raising pH would need to account for other substances that raise pH but don't burn. Liming? Is that hanging out with Brits? Ho ho ho. Chicken and rabbit manure can be toxic to plants, as can alfalfa meal, or fish emulsion, if not added according to directions. Concentration is everything. Agreed. Are you suggesting that there is too much salt in chook poo, and that is why it can burn plants? Too many salts not sodium chloride. Ammonium hydroxide which is what you would have in chook poo is a salt. Don't you say that you are a chemist or are you just bored and trying to spin this out with some added confusion? Manure Chicken Diary cow Horse Steer Rabbit N 1.1 .257 .70 .70 2.4 P .80 .15 .30 .30 1.4 K .50 .25 .60 .40 .60 Manure Sheep Alfalfa Fish Emulsion N .70 3 5 P .30 1 1 K .90 2 1 The burning is not specifically related to natural versus synthetic, you can burn plants easily with manure straight from the chicken which is about as natural as you can get. The reason that it is common with synthetic, store bought, fertilisers is that they are highly concentrated having little or no fibre or water (unlike natural fertilisers) and they are mostly or entirely soluble, so it is very easy to over dose. If you want a no-burn fertiliser get a horse. I suspect that, while fresh, horse manure may produce ammonia toxicity, if spread too thickly. Your suspicion is not supported by observation in the field nor animal metabolism. The reason that most mammals don't have any significant amount of ammonia in their feces is that nitrogen compounds are removed from the blood by the kidneys to urine as urea, uric acid etc. OTOH birds don't urinate and their excess nitrogen is dumped into the cloaca along with their bowel contents, a good proportion as ammonia. This is why bird manure is 'hotter' than from mammals such as horses and cows. Rabbits are coprophagic which apparently alters their nitrogen metabolism and somehow that increases the nitrogen in their feces. As I don't have access to such for my garden (I try to exclude the little dears) I am not inclined to delve into rabbit poop any further. David |
#2
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Question about fertilizers.
In article ,
David Hare-Scott wrote: On Wed, 25 May 2011 16:35:16 -0700, Billy wrote: In article , David Hare-Scott wrote: On Wed, 25 May 2011 08:32:58 -0700, Billy wrote: In article , David Hare-Scott wrote: On Tue, 24 May 2011 22:26:20 -0400, "DogDiesel" wrote: I've got burn questions about fertilizers. I've got a lot of old liquid fish mixes and micro nutrients , From my hydroponics . I used them last year in my outdoor soil garden . The bottles of fish mix say they wont burn. One is 5-1-1 and the Alaska starter fish mix is 2-1-1 . I know they are only 100 % ground fish mixed with water , It looks like syrup and stinks. Last year my garden did very good on it. I put about a half a shot glass with about 2 gallons of water and hand water the plants. Maybe three times for the summer. My soil was N deficient. Just so you know .It wont burn. No matter what. Or how much. What's the reason some fertilizers wont burn,. Is it just because its dead fish. Or natural or something. And if it wont burn, Why isn't non burning fertilizers available in the big stores. What else could be used as non burning fertilizers? Thanks Diesel. Fertiliser burn is caused by high concentrations of soluble salts, typically this is nitrogen salts because they are found in most fertilisers and they are very soluble but you could get the same from say potassium salts. The dehydrating effects of salts (chemical fertilizers) are well known and not restricted to fertilizer salts. It is also for this reason best to avoid chemferts, because salts have a deleterious effect on soil organisms and ecology. Regardless of what Wikipedia says, fertilizer burn with organic fertilizers comes from the pH raising effects of ammonia, How do you know this? You can smell the ammonia. Ammonia will only do one thing to an aqueous solution, and that is to turn it basic. True but you are yet to establish that is going to be a problem. Plants cannot excrete ammonia and levels exceeding those that can be incorporated are toxic. http://www.inchem.org/documents/hsg/hsg/hsg037.htm That does not say that ammonia is toxic to plants, it's a human hazard assessment. My reading of it, has it referring to plants. Read 2.2 again. Show me where I am wrong. Ammonia Toxicity -- Although ammonia is a source of plant nitrogen, high concentrations are phytotoxic. http://whatcom.wsu.edu/ag/compost/Compost_Damage.htm That does say that excess ammonia is toxic to plants. It may be so but I would like to see some more authoritative comment on the subject. I hope you get your wish. In the mean time phytotoxic means toxic to plants. You are proposing that although the salt in alfalfa is insufficient to kill the alfalfa, there is sufficient salt in the alfalfa to kill other plants? No I am not saying that and I don't know why your alfalfa causes burning. Be cause I can smell the ammonia from it. I should add that I don't use alfalfa meal anymore. A bale of alfalfa (lucerene) seems sufficient for the mulch, and fish emulsion for everything else. Did I mention that I only used the alfalfa meal in pots once, and after I realized its strength, radically reduced the amount that I use. I still like it but I don't feel in need of a new learning curve. I'll just stick to what I know. In my clay soil, if alfalfa was high in salt there should have been reduced yields from my garden, since our garden is always dressed with alfalfa. http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/livestk/01615.html I don't see the problem. I realize that some alfalfa is sold with salt supplements, but that isn't what I buy. which is released as the proteins in the organic material breaks down. (I was able to quite handily fry some potted plants with alfalfa [lucerne] meal quiet easily, no salts necessary.) How do you know there are no salts in lucerne meal? Did you actually measure the pH? No salt? I doubt there is any plant with "no salt". Before you were saying it is the rise in pH that is the problem that's why I asked what the pH was. I didn't say there was no salt. Silly Billy. Cute ;O) You asked,"How do you know there are no salts in lucerne meal"? Problem is that I never said that there were no salts in alfalfa. Why are you interchanging "salts" with "salt". Salt is somewhat ambiguous depending on the context, I was using it in the technical sense of the combination of an acid and a base, not on the common usage of sodium chloride (a specific salt). The type of salt was never stated. You really are working too hard at trying to nail me to the shed. Why is this pH effect not seen when liming? No idea. Well your theory that plant burning is caused by ammonium hydroxide raising pH would need to account for other substances that raise pH but don't burn. Such as??? Liming? Is that hanging out with Brits? Ho ho ho. Chicken and rabbit manure can be toxic to plants, as can alfalfa meal, or fish emulsion, if not added according to directions. Concentration is everything. Agreed. Are you suggesting that there is too much salt in chook poo, and that is why it can burn plants? Too many salts not sodium chloride. Ammonium hydroxide which is what you would have in chook poo is a salt. Don't you say that you are a chemist or are you just bored and trying to spin this out with some added confusion? Whoever mentioned sodium chloride? Any salt in excess can be bad for soil ecology. Manure Chicken Diary cow Horse Steer Rabbit N 1.1 .257 .70 .70 2.4 P .80 .15 .30 .30 1.4 K .50 .25 .60 .40 .60 Manure Sheep Alfalfa Fish Emulsion N .70 3 5 P .30 1 1 K .90 2 1 The burning is not specifically related to natural versus synthetic, you can burn plants easily with manure straight from the chicken which is about as natural as you can get. The reason that it is common with synthetic, store bought, fertilisers is that they are highly concentrated having little or no fibre or water (unlike natural fertilisers) and they are mostly or entirely soluble, so it is very easy to over dose. If you want a no-burn fertiliser get a horse. I suspect that, while fresh, horse manure may produce ammonia toxicity, if spread too thickly. Your suspicion is not supported by observation in the field nor animal metabolism. The reason that most mammals don't have any significant amount of ammonia in their feces is that nitrogen compounds are removed from the blood by the kidneys to urine as urea, uric acid etc. And when the urea or protein breaks down, bim-bat-a-boom, you got ammonia. Proteins are made from aminoacids, and "amino" means ammonia. OTOH birds don't urinate and their excess nitrogen is dumped into the cloaca along with their bowel contents, a good proportion as ammonia. This is why bird manure is 'hotter' than from mammals such as horses and cows. And rabbits? Rabbits are coprophagic which apparently alters their nitrogen metabolism and somehow that increases the nitrogen in their feces. As I don't have access to such for my garden (I try to exclude the little dears) I am not inclined to delve into rabbit poop any further. David Seems like a lot of shit to me ;O) So are you saying that the toxicity of alfalfa meal is due to salt? Have another tinny on me ;O) -- - Billy Mad dog Republicans to the right. Democratic spider webs to the left. True conservatives, and liberals not to be found anywhere in the phantasmagoria of the American political landscape. America is not broke. The country is awash in wealth and cash. It's just that it's not in your hands. It has been transferred, in the greatest heist in history, from the workers and consumers to the banks and the portfolios of the uber-rich. http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/.../michael-moore /michael-moore-says-400-americans-have-more-wealth-/ |
#3
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Question about fertilizers.
You really are working too hard at trying to nail me to the shed. It wasn't intended to be personal, I'm sorry you took it that way. There is enough folklore in gardening as it is, so I want to see substantiation before I accept things. David |
#4
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Question about fertilizers.
In article ,
David Hare-Scott wrote: You really are working too hard at trying to nail me hide to the shed. It wasn't intended to be personal, I'm sorry you took it that way. Then do you mind, if I tie your kangaroo down, sport? There is enough folklore in gardening as it is, so I want to see substantiation before I accept things. Seems to be a lot of that going around. David What's a little bantering between guys with dirty fingernails? You may have noticed, I enjoy bantering. It lets me practice my rhetorical dynamism from "golly gee to brimstone". It's just invectives that I find irritating and pointless. I never did get your take on why organic fertilizers can burn plants. Are the salts in organic fertilizers really that high, or do you you have a different yarn for organics? ;O) -- - Billy Mad dog Republicans to the right. Democratic spider webs to the left. True conservatives, and liberals not to be found anywhere in the phantasmagoria of the American political landscape. America is not broke. The country is awash in wealth and cash. It's just that it's not in your hands. It has been transferred, in the greatest heist in history, from the workers and consumers to the banks and the portfolios of the uber-rich. http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/.../michael-moore /michael-moore-says-400-americans-have-more-wealth-/ |
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