In article ,
Roy wrote:

On Tuesday, September 25, 2012 7:46:26 AM UTC-6, songbird wrote:
Billy wrote:

Roy wrote:

...

You shouldn't through words like "ignorance" around so carelessly.



*hahahaha*





When you say things like, "If small amounts increase the chance of

cancer in rats then DON'T FEED IT TO RATS...problem solved.", you can

expect to be consigned to a playpen.



Ignorance can be cured, stupidity, can't.



and the fact that reality doesn't care if you

are stupid and/or ignorant, if in the end you

poison your environment enough that it can no

longer sustain life then you and/or your children

are history.







As a farmer, I know what RoundUp does. I have sprayed quack grass with
it and

it works well at the recommended rate. Not bad on Canadian

thistle when applied when they are in the rosette stage in August or

early September. When used for its intended purposes it is a great

product. Other activities of Monsanto with breeding of RR resistant

varieties, I question.



The occasional application to an isolated problem, may have merit,



if it is either occasional or isolated it could be dealt

with in another manner. growing taller perennial cover

crops, not mowing too short, hand weeding, targeted grazing

by goats, ...





but

in wholesale use for weeding crops, you are damaging the topsoil, which

in the long run we will need top grow post industrial crops.



besides the fact that monoculture farming

wastes a lot of productivity because the land

is left bare for long periods of time along

with erosion of the topsoil.





Presently,

it takes more than a calorie of fossil fuel energy to produce a calorie

of food; before the advent of chemical fertilizer a farm produced more

than two calories of food energy for every calorie of energy invested.



this equation begins to shift with the introduction

of solar and wind energy into the mix. that at least

is a small improvement, but i still agree that the

adding of chemical fertilizers without improving the

soil overall is going to still be a problem. it burns

the organic matter out of the soil very quickly.





Interplanting will grow more food than monocultures. For this more labor

intensive agriculture, you need the ecology of topsoil.



i think the problem is much more than damage

to the soil, i think there is a lack in studies

which track the effects of the gene fragments

inserted into food plants. how those fragments

are digested, if they can start an allergic

or other autoimmune response in people before

they reach the stomach and intestines, if they

affect the digestive tract microbes, etc.



one mention in recent news that made me think of

the law of unintended side effects -- about how

GMO crops have tougher stalks which requires machines

to get new/harder/different tires more often (some

farmers have their tires baked to harden them) that

chopping blades wear out faster, etc.

songbird

"
this equation begins to shift with the introduction
of solar and wind energy into the mix. that at least
is a small improvement, but i still agree that the
adding of chemical fertilizers without improving the
soil overall is going to still be a problem. it burns
the organic matter out of the soil very quickly. "

The added chemical fertilizer does not "burn" organic matter out of the soil.
Obviously you have never farmed.
Excessive amounts of chemical fertilizers especially anhydrous ammonia may
have a deleterious effect on the micro-organisms naturally present in the
soil. These micro-organisms are very important to how organic matter breaks
down to free up nutrients that plants require.

Farmers who allow oil drilling companies to spread waste drilling mud on
their fields are totally unaware of the damage that these muds do to the
micro-organisms present in the soil. Nothing grows without these
micro-organisms.

And obviously you have never farmed, or you are being overly critical of
the word "burned".

In fields, or in compost, a 25/1 ratio is needed for carbon to nitrogen
to maintain a healthy environment for soil micro-organisms. Injection of
anhydrous ammonia into the soil will encourage bacteria to consume what
organic material as there is. Think of it as "carbs verses protein".
Organic material helps hold water in the soil. Without a carbon/
nitrogen balance of 25/1, bacteria die, leaving less bacterial exudate
to hold the soil together in the face of wind, which leads to erosion.

What kind of farmer are you?

--
Welcome to the New America.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg
or
E Pluribus Unum
Green Party Nominee Jill Stein & Running Mate, Cheri Honkala
http://www.democracynow.org/2012/7/13/green_party_nominee_jill_stein_running