0tterbot wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Blair wrote

I tried to grow lettuce last summer here in Perth.
Never again - they required constant water

Yeah, managed to **** up the ones the nursery said did fine in the hot weather,

lettuce can be fascinatingly difficult!! (at any rate, i've been fascinated with the difficulties i've had ;-)

Thats the only real problem I have had, they dont like our stinking hot weather much.

firstly, you may not have ****ed them up

Yeah, I did, I let them dry out far too much so they were visibly wilted and lying on the ground.

And then repeated that the next day too.

Just went back to get some more and he gave me the punnet for free.
Didnt even mention my ****up either.

- not all nurserypersons have any idea about growing stuff,

She said she had planted some herself and was already eating leaves
off them a week later, so thats what happened, not her prediction.

I didnt think to ask her where she was growing them, shaded etc, and she wasnt there today.

& babies in punnets from bunnings (or similar) can simply be a bad bet - firstly, transplanting causes some element of
stress to them (therefore they bolt sooner)

Never had that problem.

and secondly they've not had the chance to grow in their conditions (as punnets are always coddled but gardens can't
be so much) so they therefore bolt sooner.

summer is hard for lettuce, it doesn't like heat too much.

Yeah, that certainly appears to be the problem and its
****ing hot here, 10 days over 40C isnt that unusual.

try them in semi-shaded pots/foam boxes

Yeah, about to try that.

or some other sort of semi-shaded location, or under shade cloth in the garden. shade will help enormously.

Yeah, just got some shade cloth this morning, havent tried it yet.

I might try some inside too, under the cooler.

if you plant seed direct (whether in the garden or a pot) you will have much more success too,

I didnt, I appeared to let them dry out too much.

Only one batch germinated and needless to say the bloody birds got the lot in one meal.

Got bird nets now, so that wont happen again.

But the net says that they wont germinate over 30C. Not clear what that means,
whether its any time of the day over 30C or if the minimum temp is over 30C.

There is no chance of seeds germinating if its any time over 30C, we
hardly ever get a day when it isnt and dont often get that even inside.

We dont often get overnight minimums over 30C tho.

I did get some to germinate fine in seed trays that I kept in plastic to
keep them wet, but thats just my seedlings as opposed to Bunnings etc.

I should be able to keep them wet enough in the ground
with plastic etc, but its not clear about that temperature yet.

it avoids the problems mentioned above. sow thickly & then thin them out (the second session of thinnings
when the thinnings are baby-sized but big enough to eat).

they like a LOT of water relative to many other plants, as their
structure is mostly water. failure to water leads to bolting!

And they dont have much in the way of roots either.

I was previously giving them a good soak each day, mostly in the
evenings, so there was standing water on the ground. But thats
nowhere near enough now in the hot weather, so I have changed
over to twice a day now, and will see how that goes.

I'll probably get another punnet of them and keep them well watered,
more for academic interest than anything else. The stuff we buy in
the supermarket
right thru the summer must be coming from somewhere

cooler areas, and often grown in shadehouses (or similar). but they're not really a summer crop. other greens like
mizuna are a better bet.

Can you use that on sandwitches ?

you can also track down seed of lettuce cultivars which are intended to cope better with summer, but no guarantees
there.

Yeah, found one site that lists those, but they still say
that even the H ones should be planted from April.

and if they can do it, I should be able to too. I just want leaves, dont care if I cant get icebergs to grow.

leafies are better, as even when (rather than if ;-)) they bolt,
you've still eaten from them. whereas icebergs & other hearting
lettuces give less, & are more of a risk re bolting well before maturity.

Yeah, mate of mine had some very decent ones but he's so slack that
he doesnt even know what variety they were. He did give me some,
and gave me some tomatoes at the same time, so it most likely would
have been late summer, but I didnt think to record when it was.

He let them all go to seed and collected the seed, and tried to
plant the seeds this spring, but appears to have not kept them
we enough and didnt get any germination at all. Must ask him
if he has any seeds left, think he planted the lot. I could certainly
go to some trouble to germinate them like in the fridge etc if there are some left.

Might try some lettuce in pots inside, I obviously have an
evaporative cooler on the roof and just bask under that in that sort
of hot weather.

inside is not the worst idea, but they will still need some sun. perhaps a spot that's sunny in the mornings.

Yeah, thats what I meant, should have said that. I have 7 patio doors on
the north side of the house for passive solar and the one East facing
door certainly does get sun in the morning so there would be fine.

Concrete and quarry tiles floor, so I can do that anywhere I like.

i had my best crop ever by growing an heirloom mix, sown direct, under shadecloth, but they still bolted before i
wanted them to. but,
sowing them is simple & you get loads this way & can re-sow every 2
weeks or a month for a supply of nice baby greens. even if they still
bolt too young, you've had soemthing from them.

So what about that 30C germination question ?

in winter, lettuce is a pain in the arse as well. but, there are many winter cultivars (they're often the red
lettuces).

i haven't worked out yet whether seasol/poo stew is a huge help to lettuce or not, but it does seem to be anecdotally.

Havent tried that yet. Just used pelletised veg starter fertiliser
and when they grew fine, didnt bother with anything else.

I plan to collect the seed off those, mignonettes and cos.

kylie

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...

if you plant seed direct (whether in the garden or a pot) you will have
much more success too,

I didnt, I appeared to let them dry out too much.

right, regardless of where you plant them, you need to keep the seed nicely
moist until they've germinated & grown a little, naturally g

what i do with most seeds lately, is that after planting them & whatnot, put
some straw around (higher than the seed bed but not over the seeds,
obviously) & lay an aluminium fly screen over the top. this helps keep the
wind off, & provides a little shade as well. ime, they just do much better
from the protection. these i can water a bit less too. although with lettuce
you still probably want to check them 2x daily to be sure the soil is moist.

having said that, self-seeded lettuce thrives on all manner of ignoring it
completely, so there's that. the benefit of seed is that only the good ones
prosper. with transplants, you might just be coddling along a dud that's
never going to be a really sturdy plant. a dud grown from seed, you just
thin it out & keep only the big boisterous ones to reach maturity.


Only one batch germinated and needless to say the bloody birds got the lot
in one meal.

Got bird nets now, so that wont happen again.

But the net says that they wont germinate over 30C. Not clear what that
means,
whether its any time of the day over 30C or if the minimum temp is over
30C.

with lettuce in particular? probably a maximum (day) average. i'd say it
just means germination is very poor in hot weather. if it goes over 30 for
an hour it doesn't mean none of the seeds will ever germinate!! but you'd
certainly want to germinate them when it's a little cooler, or in a cooler
place. also, a 35 degree day is not necessarily unpleasant for a plant which
is shaded, so there's that.

also worth remembering most veg plants grow best (overall) in the 15-25
degree range, iirc, depending on the type of plant, because it's just the
way it is & they've been bred (e.g. in europe) to be that way. local
cultivars therefore have local advantage. (the cultivar australian yellow
leaf, which i don't think is particularly tasty alhtough it's not bad, is
definitely better for hot weather, i found. just as an example).

cooler areas, and often grown in shadehouses (or similar). but they're
not really a summer crop. other greens like mizuna are a better bet.

Can you use that on sandwitches ?

of course. and it grows all year round, it's extremely easy (unlike lettuce)
and prolific. nasturtium is another good one for summer (if you like peppery
leaves).

Yeah, mate of mine had some very decent ones but he's so slack that
he doesnt even know what variety they were. He did give me some,
and gave me some tomatoes at the same time, so it most likely would
have been late summer, but I didnt think to record when it was.

if they were iceberg-like, it would have been "great lakes". iceberg is a
commercial cultivar, i don't believe you can buy the seed freely (?). great
lakes is the non-commercial version.

He let them all go to seed and collected the seed, and tried to
plant the seeds this spring, but appears to have not kept them
we enough and didnt get any germination at all. Must ask him
if he has any seeds left, think he planted the lot. I could certainly
go to some trouble to germinate them like in the fridge etc if there are
some left.

if it was a hybrid, the seed may have been infertile, OR it could have been
a problem of another kind. it's not worth saving hybrid seed though - at
best it's not true to type (although you could get lucky & have plants which
are better than type although taht is unlikely) but they tend to have
fertility problems anyway. you want open-pollinated seed.

bolt too young, you've had soemthing from them.

So what about that 30C germination question ?

well, where i live it's not a hot climate. we get bursts of extreme heat
that last a week or so, but over summer there is plenty of time where its
well under 30 for things to germinate. our big problem this summer has been
dryness, rather than heat, & also the completely erratic nature of the
temperatures here can be a real problem.

you have to appreciate your own local weather and climate, & try to work
around that because you can't alter it. with experimenting, you'll find out
what types of things work well at your place & which things just don't ever
seem successful, and also which things you can coax into success by doing
things a little differently or at a different time of year.

i haven't worked out yet whether seasol/poo stew is a huge help to
lettuce or not, but it does seem to be anecdotally.

Havent tried that yet. Just used pelletised veg starter fertiliser
and when they grew fine, didnt bother with anything else.

blood & bone might be better. i use it a lot as my soil's pretty terrible.
manufactured fertilisers do nothing for the soil as they are water soluble
(so you don't get to keep it - any not taken by the plant immediately
leaches away & that's a problem) and are expensive.
good luck!
i still struggle with lettuce as i said, but it's getting much better & is
lots of fun when you really crack how to do something that hasn't worked out
in the past! we all have to keep learning all the time with this. plants
like silverbeet that are hopelessly easy are excellent too - but they don't
teach us anything like lettuce & your more contrary vegetables do. :-)
kylie

0tterbot wrote
Rod Speed wrote

if you plant seed direct (whether in the garden or a pot) you will have much more success too,

I didnt, I appeared to let them dry out too much.

right, regardless of where you plant them, you need to keep the seed
nicely moist until they've germinated & grown a little, naturally g

what i do with most seeds lately, is that after planting them &
whatnot, put some straw around (higher than the seed bed but not over the seeds, obviously) & lay an aluminium fly
screen over the top.
this helps keep the wind off, & provides a little shade as well. ime,

What's wrong with just a sheet of plastic to stop the soil drying out ?

Thats what worked fine with the seedling trays, I just
put them in a plastic bag and they germinated fine.

they just do much better from the protection. these i can water a bit less too. although with lettuce you still
probably want to check them 2x daily to be sure the soil is moist.

Thats one advantage with a sheet of plastic, easier to check that visually.

having said that, self-seeded lettuce thrives on all manner of
ignoring it completely, so there's that. the benefit of seed is that
only the good ones prosper. with transplants, you might just be
coddling along a dud that's never going to be a really sturdy plant.
a dud grown from seed, you just thin it out & keep only the big
boisterous ones to reach maturity.

OK, I'll collect the seeds off half the ones that
have gone to seed and let the rest self seed.

Only one batch germinated and needless to say the bloody birds got the lot in one meal.

Got bird nets now, so that wont happen again.

But the net says that they wont germinate over 30C. Not clear what that means,
whether its any time of the day over 30C or if the minimum temp is over 30C.

with lettuce in particular?

That was lettuce in general, even the ones that dont bolt in hot weather.

probably a maximum (day) average.

Yeah, I assume so too. Just wondering if anyone knew for sure.

i'd say it just means germination is very poor in hot weather.

I've since realised that I might as well just try it with seed so cheap.

if it goes over 30 for an hour it doesn't mean none of the seeds will ever germinate!! but you'd certainly want to
germinate them when it's a little cooler, or in a cooler place. also, a 35 degree day is not
necessarily unpleasant for a plant which is shaded, so there's that.

True.

also worth remembering most veg plants grow best (overall) in the
15-25 degree range, iirc, depending on the type of plant, because
it's just the way it is & they've been bred (e.g. in europe) to be
that way. local cultivars therefore have local advantage.

Yeah, I'm just talking about what to grow thru the hot summers,
obviously the problem will go away in april etc when I'm sure the
mignonettes and cos will be fine, because they were in spring.

(the cultivar australian yellow leaf, which i don't think is particularly tasty alhtough it's not bad, is definitely
better for hot weather, i found. just as an example).

OK, I'll try some of those too.

cooler areas, and often grown in shadehouses (or similar). but
they're not really a summer crop. other greens like mizuna are a
better bet.

Can you use that on sandwitches ?

of course. and it grows all year round, it's extremely easy (unlike
lettuce) and prolific. nasturtium is another good one for summer (if
you like peppery leaves).

Yes I do, I'll try some of those too.

Yeah, mate of mine had some very decent ones but he's so slack that
he doesnt even know what variety they were. He did give me some,
and gave me some tomatoes at the same time, so it most likely would
have been late summer, but I didnt think to record when it was.

if they were iceberg-like,

No they werent, they were leafy lettuces, not crispheads.
Quite vertical, but not much like my cos.

it would have been "great lakes". iceberg is a commercial cultivar, i don't believe you can buy the seed freely (?).

I've got some, got them from Bunnings, forget the
manufacturer, cant put my hand on the packet right now.

great lakes is the non-commercial version.

He let them all go to seed and collected the seed, and tried to
plant the seeds this spring, but appears to have not kept them
we enough and didnt get any germination at all. Must ask him
if he has any seeds left, think he planted the lot. I could certainly
go to some trouble to germinate them like in the fridge etc if there
are some left.

if it was a hybrid, the seed may have been infertile, OR it could
have been a problem of another kind. it's not worth saving hybrid
seed though - at best it's not true to type (although you could get
lucky & have plants which are better than type although taht is
unlikely) but they tend to have fertility problems anyway. you want
open-pollinated seed.

bolt too young, you've had soemthing from them.

So what about that 30C germination question ?

well, where i live it's not a hot climate. we get bursts of extreme
heat that last a week or so, but over summer there is plenty of time
where its well under 30 for things to germinate. our big problem this
summer has been dryness, rather than heat, & also the completely
erratic nature of the temperatures here can be a real problem.

you have to appreciate your own local weather and climate, & try to
work around that because you can't alter it. with experimenting,
you'll find out what types of things work well at your place & which
things just don't ever seem successful, and also which things you can
coax into success by doing things a little differently or at a
different time of year.

Yeah, I'll try it temperature wise, its unlikely that they mean
that any temp over 30C for any time is the problem.

i haven't worked out yet whether seasol/poo stew is a huge help to
lettuce or not, but it does seem to be anecdotally.

Havent tried that yet. Just used pelletised veg starter fertiliser
and when they grew fine, didnt bother with anything else.

blood & bone might be better. i use it a lot as my soil's pretty terrible.

Mine is very decent.

manufactured fertilisers do nothing for the soil as they
are water soluble (so you don't get to keep it - any not taken by the
plant immediately leaches away & that's a problem) and are expensive.
good luck!

i still struggle with lettuce as i said, but it's getting much better
& is lots of fun when you really crack how to do something that
hasn't worked out in the past!

Yeah, thats the main reason I am doing it, the cost of the commercial
stuff isnt the reason, its just more convenient to grab some leaves
as required. I always eat the end off a freshly baked loaf of bread
with salami and relish and lettuce in an open sandwitch and I do
a fresh loaf every 4 days literally.

we all have to keep learning all the time with this. plants like silverbeet that are hopelessly easy are excellent
too - but they don't teach us anything like lettuce & your
more contrary vegetables do. :-) kylie

True.

On Sun, 24 Jan 2010 11:40:03 +1100, "Rod Speed" wrote:

What's wrong with just a sheet of plastic to stop the soil drying out ?

Plastic stops the soil "breathing"

wrote:
On Sun, 24 Jan 2010 11:40:03 +1100, "Rod Speed" wrote:

What's wrong with just a sheet of plastic to stop the soil drying out ?

Plastic stops the soil "breathing"

Shame woddles wouldn't make better use of the plastic sheeting

wrote
Rod Speed wrote

What's wrong with just a sheet of plastic to stop the soil drying out ?

Plastic stops the soil "breathing"

Sure, but that clearly doesnt affect germination of seedling
trays, so shouldnt matter with the soil either as long as its
only used until the seed germinate and not after that.

Rod Speed wrote:
wrote
Rod Speed wrote

What's wrong with just a sheet of plastic to stop the soil drying out ?

Plastic stops the soil "breathing"

Sure, but that clearly doesnt affect germination of seedling
trays, so shouldnt matter with the soil either as long as its
only used until the seed germinate and not after that.


Wrap it around your head for a day or two in the effort to discover the
truth

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
wrote
Rod Speed wrote

What's wrong with just a sheet of plastic to stop the soil drying out ?

Plastic stops the soil "breathing"

Sure, but that clearly doesnt affect germination of seedling
trays, so shouldnt matter with the soil either as long as its
only used until the seed germinate and not after that.

Not at this time of year though as it's way too hot. Hessian is better at
this time of year because it protects the soil and keeps it moist but
without causing heat build up.

FarmI wrote
Rod Speed wrote
wrote
Rod Speed wrote

What's wrong with just a sheet of plastic to stop the soil drying out ?

Plastic stops the soil "breathing"

Sure, but that clearly doesnt affect germination of seedling
trays, so shouldnt matter with the soil either as long as its
only used until the seed germinate and not after that.

Not at this time of year though as it's way too hot. Hessian is better at this time of year because it protects the
soil and keeps it moist but without causing heat build up.

No reason why it cant be used with hessian or straw etc on top at this time of year.

In fact it would be even easier to use a sheet of ply or masonite etc wrapped in plastic.

Just until the seeds have come thru.

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 24 Jan 2010 11:40:03 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:

What's wrong with just a sheet of plastic to stop the soil drying out ?

Plastic stops the soil "breathing"

Plastic is also the material you use to solarise your soil. By that I meant
hat you use the plastic to heat up the ground to kill weeds. It would do
the same to lettuce.

FarmI wrote
wrote
Rod Speed wrote:

What's wrong with just a sheet of plastic to stop the soil drying out ?

Plastic stops the soil "breathing"

Plastic is also the material you use to solarise your soil. By that I meant hat you use the plastic to heat up the
ground to kill weeds. It would do the same to lettuce.

Not if you cover it with something like straw, masonite etc.

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
FarmI wrote
wrote
Rod Speed wrote:

What's wrong with just a sheet of plastic to stop the soil drying out ?

Plastic stops the soil "breathing"

Plastic is also the material you use to solarise your soil. By that I
meant hat you use the plastic to heat up the ground to kill weeds. It
would do the same to lettuce.

Not if you cover it with something like straw, masonite etc.

Try it and tell us about the results.

Rod Speed wrote
0tterbot wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Blair wrote

I tried to grow lettuce last summer here in Perth.
Never again - they required constant water

Yeah, managed to **** up the ones the nursery said did fine in the hot weather,

lettuce can be fascinatingly difficult!! (at any rate, i've been
fascinated with the difficulties i've had ;-)

Thats the only real problem I have had, they dont like our stinking hot weather much.

firstly, you may not have ****ed them up

Yeah, they have since come good, new leaves, and they didnt
get the shadecloth either, I didnt buy enough to shade both
these and the new punnet so I shaded the new punnet.

Hasnt been quite as hot tho, we havent actually gone over 40C for more than a week now.

Yeah, I did, I let them dry out far too much so they were visibly wilted and lying on the ground.

And then repeated that the next day too.

Just went back to get some more and he gave me the punnet for free.
Didnt even mention my ****up either.

- not all nurserypersons have any idea about growing stuff,

She said she had planted some herself and was already eating leaves
off them a week later, so thats what happened, not her prediction.

Still havent got anything like that myself, even with the latest punnet.

The new punnet looks fine, but no real progress yet, but that not
even a week from the transplanting shock yet, so its a bit early yet,
although she did presumably transplant hers. Might go and ask her today.

I didnt think to ask her where she was growing them, shaded etc, and she wasnt there today.

John Savage wrote elsewhere

In summer, hold off planting out seedlings until the weather forecast is for a couple of cool, showery days.

Thats just not feasible here, we often only get one or two of
those a summer, sometimes not even one of those a summer.

Plant in the cool near evening,

Yeah, I do that in summer.

and provide each seedling with a couple of sprigs of fern (or twigs off any shrub with small shady leaves), to protect
the seedlings when the sun comes out.

I've planted the latest punnet under shade cloth but its not big enough to give
permanent shade, so its mostly just shade during the main part of the day.

If they at any stage lie flat on the ground, you have lost them.

Turns out they all survived fine. Some doing better than others.


& babies in punnets from bunnings (or similar) can simply be a bad
bet - firstly, transplanting causes some element of stress to them
(therefore they bolt sooner)

Never had that problem.

and secondly they've not had the chance to grow in their conditions
(as punnets are always coddled but gardens can't be so much) so they
therefore bolt sooner.

summer is hard for lettuce, it doesn't like heat too much.

Yeah, that certainly appears to be the problem and its
****ing hot here, 10 days over 40C isnt that unusual.

try them in semi-shaded pots/foam boxes

Yeah, about to try that.

or some other sort of semi-shaded location, or under shade cloth in
the garden. shade will help enormously.

Yeah, just got some shade cloth this morning, havent tried it yet.

I might try some inside too, under the cooler.

if you plant seed direct (whether in the garden or a pot) you will
have much more success too,

I didnt, I appeared to let them dry out too much.

Only one batch germinated and needless to say the bloody birds got
the lot in one meal.
Got bird nets now, so that wont happen again.

But the net says that they wont germinate over 30C. Not clear what
that means, whether its any time of the day over 30C or if the minimum temp is
over 30C.
There is no chance of seeds germinating if its any time over 30C, we
hardly ever get a day when it isnt and dont often get that even
inside.
We dont often get overnight minimums over 30C tho.

I did get some to germinate fine in seed trays that I kept in plastic
to keep them wet, but thats just my seedlings as opposed to Bunnings etc.

I should be able to keep them wet enough in the ground
with plastic etc, but its not clear about that temperature yet.

it avoids the problems mentioned above. sow thickly & then thin them
out (the second session of thinnings when the thinnings are baby-sized but big enough to eat).

they like a LOT of water relative to many other plants, as their
structure is mostly water. failure to water leads to bolting!

And they dont have much in the way of roots either.

I was previously giving them a good soak each day, mostly in the
evenings, so there was standing water on the ground. But thats
nowhere near enough now in the hot weather, so I have changed
over to twice a day now, and will see how that goes.

I'll probably get another punnet of them and keep them well watered,
more for academic interest than anything else. The stuff we buy in
the supermarket
right thru the summer must be coming from somewhere

cooler areas, and often grown in shadehouses (or similar). but
they're not really a summer crop. other greens like mizuna are a
better bet.

Can you use that on sandwitches ?

you can also track down seed of lettuce cultivars which are intended
to cope better with summer, but no guarantees there.

Yeah, found one site that lists those, but they still say
that even the H ones should be planted from April.

and if they can do it, I should be able to too. I just want
leaves, dont care if I cant get icebergs to grow.

leafies are better, as even when (rather than if ;-)) they bolt,
you've still eaten from them. whereas icebergs & other hearting
lettuces give less, & are more of a risk re bolting well before
maturity.

Yeah, mate of mine had some very decent ones but he's so slack that
he doesnt even know what variety they were. He did give me some,
and gave me some tomatoes at the same time, so it most likely would
have been late summer, but I didnt think to record when it was.

He let them all go to seed and collected the seed, and tried to
plant the seeds this spring, but appears to have not kept them
we enough and didnt get any germination at all. Must ask him
if he has any seeds left, think he planted the lot. I could certainly
go to some trouble to germinate them like in the fridge etc if there
are some left.
Might try some lettuce in pots inside, I obviously have an
evaporative cooler on the roof and just bask under that in that sort
of hot weather.

inside is not the worst idea, but they will still need some sun.
perhaps a spot that's sunny in the mornings.

Yeah, thats what I meant, should have said that. I have 7 patio doors
on the north side of the house for passive solar and the one East facing
door certainly does get sun in the morning so there would be fine.

Concrete and quarry tiles floor, so I can do that anywhere I like.

i had my best crop ever by growing an heirloom mix, sown direct,
under shadecloth, but they still bolted before i wanted them to. but,
sowing them is simple & you get loads this way & can re-sow every 2
weeks or a month for a supply of nice baby greens. even if they still
bolt too young, you've had soemthing from them.

So what about that 30C germination question ?

in winter, lettuce is a pain in the arse as well. but, there are
many winter cultivars (they're often the red lettuces).

i haven't worked out yet whether seasol/poo stew is a huge help to
lettuce or not, but it does seem to be anecdotally.

Havent tried that yet. Just used pelletised veg starter fertiliser
and when they grew fine, didnt bother with anything else.

I plan to collect the seed off those, mignonettes and cos.

kylie